Jeremy White All-22

[NoSaint]

 

IMHO...teams take on the personalities of their coach and their opinions.

 

So, it is just my thoughts but I am guessing the coaches preach taking care of the ball to a fault. For example, coaches should not scare or worry their players about making some mistakes. They need to learn from them and improve by doing so....to a degree.

 

Manuel and Orton both threw down field more when they took over as starter and then slowly regressed. Maybe Marrone and Hackett are too passive and preaching the wrong things and the players are playing on eggshells instead of playing. Maybe with the Oline too? Remember Kujo's comments earlier in the season. And Manuel's when he was removed as starter. I don't think Schwartz has the defense playing like this, fyi. Thoughts?

 

The tone on offense has had a lot more uncertainty on roles/expectations than the defense. Yes, vacuums from talent holes can contribute but I've felt there's something with the leadership/vision/communication that is simply off

[QCity]

You think a guy with the kind of drive and determination like Tom Brady can get coached into timidity? How bout a guy like Big Ben?

 

I don't think any future HOF QB's can be coached into timidity, but a journeyman like Orton could be. EJ has certainly regressed and looks pretty timid to me. Orton immediately clutches the ball with both hands the second anyone breathes on him now. He wasn't like that in his first few appearances (he did try to make a play in the face of pressure and fumbled earlier in the season). The mantra seems to be "don't take any chances that could turn the ball over, we got a great defense so let's punt." It works well against teams that can't score like the Jets and Browns, not so much against Superbowl contenders.

[FireChan]

 

 

I don't think any future HOF QB's can be coached into timidity, but a journeyman like Orton could be. EJ has certainly regressed and looks pretty timid to me. Orton immediately clutches the ball with both hands the second anyone breathes on him now. He wasn't like that in his first few appearances (he did try to make a play in the face of pressure and fumbled earlier in the season). The mantra seems to be "don't take any chances that could turn the ball over, we got a great defense so let's punt." It works well against teams that can't score like the Jets and Browns, not so much against Superbowl contenders.

 

If we didn't turn the ball over against Denver, I think we would've won.

[Prickly Pete]

Orton is basically the same guy he has always been. It's not the coach, it's the QB. He's not that good, and the Bills will never compete for any kind of championship without a better QB. It's painfully obvious.

[Hatszel]

That should help clear the BS about the refs being the reason we lost the game. Wasn't sure why people thought that to begin with considering the score was 24-3 at the end of 3 Quarters...

 

that took a look at two how about Gilmores PI in 2nd quarter (game momentum changer that was 3rd down) The double head but on Chandler one taking his helmet off the other after the play when he was head butted without his helmet on ?

 

Officiating was bad and one sided Broncos got call only after complaining several times. Did not show push off on Chandlers TD either. If your going to make reference to officialting you have to compare all comparable throws. Most likely the All 22 cut these off so they could not be shown

 

I have been noticing alot of shots to the head not being called this year seems like they emphasized the db penalties and stopped looking for shots to the head

[thewildrabbit]

I don't get the Kyle Orton bashing. He is playing exactly as anyone who has ever watched Kyle Orton would expect the guy to play.

 

I also think people are forgetting how horrendous EJ was earlier in the year. The guy couldn't accurately throw a 5-yard pass. Orton has done a nice job, making good accurate short and intermediate throws, mixing in some good deep throws, and, of course, making the mistakes you would expect him to make. He's not going to be perfect or great. But he's been serviceable.

Its what a lot of what Bills fans do, defend the inept coaching and crucify the QB.

 

Yet, If asked 99.9 of the fans would tell you Orton is not elite, and just average. So why does this coaching staff have this QB carrying the entire offensive workload every single game? Almost always 40 passes vs 20 rushes, and if you know the guy is not elite why not build a decent ground game and utilize it. More times then not this year the run game has been gaining over 4.0 yards per carry, and against the Broncos they were getting 4.6 while rushing only 16 times.

 

Denver was also getting 4.6 YPC and managed to win the game by limiting Manning's passes to only 20, and their run game with 29 rushes. They managed to make some big plays in the run game, and their RB scored 3 TD's. The Denver coaching staff was smart enough to realize after that St Louis loss when Manning threw for 54 times for 369 yards 1TD, 2 INT's while the team only rushing it only 10 times wasn't the formula to win games.

 

Since that St Louis loss the Broncos coaching staff devised a very solid ground game in which they ran the ball with CJ Anderson gaining 167, 168 yards in the next two games.

Denver coaches = smart. Buffalo coaches = inept

Edited December 10, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[NoSaint]

 

 

I don't think any future HOF QB's can be coached into timidity, but a journeyman like Orton could be. EJ has certainly regressed and looks pretty timid to me. Orton immediately clutches the ball with both hands the second anyone breathes on him now. He wasn't like that in his first few appearances (he did try to make a play in the face of pressure and fumbled earlier in the season). The mantra seems to be "don't take any chances that could turn the ball over, we got a great defense so let's punt." It works well against teams that can't score like the Jets and Browns, not so much against Superbowl contenders.

 

If you looked at Denver boards this week they were talking about ghost rushers getting to him- I dont believe its new.

[Solomon Grundy]

On the "dear god...." play, it seems as though FredEx ran right by the late blitzer. Had he picked him up Orton would've had time to make throw to Woods.

[dave mcbride]

He also makes a really great point that the Broncos throw the ball downfield, and uses the example of them getting picked off. Good one, Jer. And even says I know they got picked off but they try it. Jesus.

 

I want them to throw the ball deep too. Get Goodwin in the game and overthrow it if you have to. But don't use an INT as an example to illustrate it. The first deep ball Manning threw that was caught by Welker should have been intercepted or at least knocked down by AWilliams who just screwed up.

Disagree, dog. What made the Martz offense so great in its heyday was the willingness to throw the ball down the field and risk ints. When with the Rams, Martz always regarded Warner's deep pass INTs as effectively punts. He figured they were ok to give up as long as they also got the ball into the hands of their deep-ball playmakers on a regular basis, which they did. And they scored and won a lot.

[dave mcbride]

Hackett didn't even know what defensive scheme the Texans secondary were playing until last into the third quarter, and Mike Williams then went invisible for voicing that to the Buffalo Bills post game show. He stated 'we adjusted too late". Then he said things tend not to work when you are playing against a different scheme then the one you game planned for.

 

Most Bills fans just don't really just how bad this offensive coaching is, and has been all year. Kyle Orton is an average QB, and not elite. So why ask the guy to throw 57 times against the #4 ranked defense in the league. Just insane!

They really had to throw that much given how far down they were. Also, their running game is terrible - completely unable to break big plays.

 

 

 

Playing awesome once the score is 24-3 ! Garbagetime! Let's impress fc w a hogan td!

Not garbage time. The bills had a chance (15 percent using past history) to recover an onside kick with a minute left and tie the game with a td. Unlikely, but certainly not hopeless. It wan't like they were down 38-17.

[The Big Cat]

I don't think any future HOF QB's can be coached into timidity, but a journeyman like Orton could be. EJ has certainly regressed and looks pretty timid to me. Orton immediately clutches the ball with both hands the second anyone breathes on him now. He wasn't like that in his first few appearances (he did try to make a play in the face of pressure and fumbled earlier in the season). The mantra seems to be "don't take any chances that could turn the ball over, we got a great defense so let's punt." It works well against teams that can't score like the Jets and Browns, not so much against Superbowl contenders.

 

I like how we acknowledge Orton's willingness to stand in and take a shot in his first few appearances and say the reason he won't do that now...is because of coaching.

 

I swear you guys are a toggle switch.

 

May be...I don't know...he's not as willing to take shots like he did when he first started...because those shots !@#$ing hurt and that **** got old to a journeyman QB who's north of 30 and whom many questioned in July/August whether he even wanted to play football anymore.

 

But no, seriously, blaming the coaches is a much simpler answer.

[GG]

I gave reasons for the WR's not producing. They are getting open, so I'll chalk that up as a + for the OC. Now, onto the line. Glenn is playing a little worse. But he's not getting much help from his LG. I'll say that you can't do much from a schematic standpoint. Wood? Again, poor help on both his left and right sides. When you gotta help both guards, it's hard ot perform at a high level on your own. And that's pretty much it. Our guards suck and are bringing the bright spots on the line down with them.

 

But that's the thing. Everyone knows the Bills' weakness, yet Marrone & Co continue to expose the weakness. It gets back to the identity of the offense - it has none. Each game is it's own season and lessons are not learned or carried over from previous weeks. Has Hackett been godawful? No. But to deny that his game plans aren't largely responsible for the offensive woes, is ridiculous.

 

This is a case where people love to bring statistics into an argument of what the film shows. The statistics may say one thing, but the performance on the field shows something completely different.

 

So yeah, we know that Orton is who he is. The OL is not playing well. So let's design a plan that maximizes the weakness. Heck, we saw some nice catches in the flat by Bryce Brown. So let's save that for the film archives for the rest of the season. Marquis Gray has a great day with two misdirection plays, so let's ignore that when playing one of the more aggressive pursuing D's in the league.

 

Let's instead have the slowest QB roll out for 10 yards with only one passing option when you need to pick up six inches. It's the glaring inability to pick up one yard when needed, and reverting to cutesy plays to convert key third downs. If you deactivate an ineffective Frank Summers, maybe this would be a good experiment with lining up Lee Smith or Cyril in the backfield. You don't go shotgun with 1 yard to go.

 

It's the little thing like that which add up over a course of the game and season, and why the pitchforks are out.

[The Big Cat]

But that's the thing. Everyone knows the Bills' weakness, yet Marrone & Co continue to expose the weakness. It gets back to the identity of the offense - it has none. Each game is it's own season and lessons are not learned or carried over from previous weeks. Has Hackett been godawful? No. But to deny that his game plans aren't largely responsible for the offensive woes, is ridiculous.

 

This is a case where people love to bring statistics into an argument of what the film shows. The statistics may say one thing, but the performance on the field shows something completely different.

 

So yeah, we know that Orton is who he is. The OL is not playing well. So let's design a plan that maximizes the weakness. Heck, we saw some nice catches in the flat by Bryce Brown. So let's save that for the film archives for the rest of the season. Marquis Gray has a great day with two misdirection plays, so let's ignore that when playing one of the more aggressive pursuing D's in the league.

 

Let's instead have the slowest QB roll out for 10 yards with only one passing option when you need to pick up six inches. It's the glaring inability to pick up one yard when needed, and reverting to cutesy plays to convert key third downs. If you deactivate an ineffective Frank Summers, maybe this would be a good experiment with lining up Lee Smith or Cyril in the backfield. You don't go shotgun with 1 yard to go.

 

It's the little thing like that which add up over a course of the game and season, and why the pitchforks are out.

 

I'm genuinely curious what you think our strengths are that should be exploited.

 

I know Kelly will use this as an opportunity to say we should spread defenses more because he takes all those plays in a vacuum without consideration for the formations used to set that up...but I digress.

 

Seriously, this talking point of "play calling that exposes our weaknesses" doesn't mean diddly unless there's a consensus on our strengths.

 

More importantly though, if a receiver running free in single coverage is one of our "weaknesses," well, then...I don't know may be our players suck.

[GG]

I'm genuinely curious what you think our strengths are that should be exploited.

 

I know Kelly will use this as an opportunity to say we should spread defenses more because he takes all those plays in a vacuum without consideration for the formations used to set that up...but I digress.

 

Seriously, this talking point of "play calling that exposes our weaknesses" doesn't mean diddly unless there's a consensus on our strengths.

 

More importantly though, if a receiver running free in single coverage is one of our "weaknesses," well, then...I don't know may be our players suck.

 

If you don't want to hear, again, thoughts on how to utilize our strengths, then there's nothing I can help you with. We have good talent at the skill player position, yet insist on game planning an offense around Chris Chandler and Chris Hogan. The basic design of this offense resembles an NCAA team more than it does a pro offense. Hey guys, go out in the pattern and the QB will find you. Granted that's not every call, but the base formation of Watkins, Woods, Hogan & Chandler doesn't vary a hell of a lot. Tell me, when was the last time you saw Watkins, Woods, Hogan, Williams & Goodwin on the field at the same time? Don't you think there could be a few designed plays for that?

 

There's clearly a fall off in Orton's play over the last month. That's on him. But you also can't deny that the Bills offensive formations are very easy to defend. And it becomes a self feeding cycle.

Edited December 10, 2014 by GG

[dave mcbride]

But that's the thing. Everyone knows the Bills' weakness, yet Marrone & Co continue to expose the weakness. It gets back to the identity of the offense - it has none. Each game is it's own season and lessons are not learned or carried over from previous weeks. Has Hackett been godawful? No. But to deny that his game plans aren't largely responsible for the offensive woes, is ridiculous.

 

This is a case where people love to bring statistics into an argument of what the film shows. The statistics may say one thing, but the performance on the field shows something completely different.

 

So yeah, we know that Orton is who he is. The OL is not playing well. So let's design a plan that maximizes the weakness. Heck, we saw some nice catches in the flat by Bryce Brown. So let's save that for the film archives for the rest of the season. Marquis Gray has a great day with two misdirection plays, so let's ignore that when playing one of the more aggressive pursuing D's in the league.

 

Let's instead have the slowest QB roll out for 10 yards with only one passing option when you need to pick up six inches. It's the glaring inability to pick up one yard when needed, and reverting to cutesy plays to convert key third downs. If you deactivate an ineffective Frank Summers, maybe this would be a good experiment with lining up Lee Smith or Cyril in the backfield. You don't go shotgun with 1 yard to go.

 

It's the little thing like that which add up over a course of the game and season, and why the pitchforks are out.

Gerry: Check out what this piece implies about the importance of good guard play. Someone might want to send this to OBD: http://www.nytimes.c...sight.html?_r=0

 

Let's instead have the slowest QB roll out for 10 yards with only one passing option when you need to pick up six inches. It's the glaring inability to pick up one yard when needed, and reverting to cutesy plays to convert key third downs. If you deactivate an ineffective Frank Summers, maybe this would be a good experiment with lining up Lee Smith or Cyril in the backfield. You don't go shotgun with 1 yard to go.

 

I don't have a huge problem with shotgun on 3rd and 1 for two reasons - the Bills are a horrible straight-up ground and pound team on third/fourth and short (mostly because of their miserable interior line), and you can run out of the shotgun. Of course, this just begs the larger question - why don't the Bills ever run the safest and surest play in those situations - the QB sneak? They finally did it at the end of the game (probably because they didn't think the Broncos were set), and lo and behold it worked. Doesn't Brady have something like a 90 percent plus success rate on that play?

 

That should help clear the BS about the refs being the reason we lost the game. Wasn't sure why people thought that to begin with considering the score was 24-3 at the end of 3 Quarters...

Yep. I'll admit I was wrong about the refs. That was largely because they mistakenly called Robey's number though!

Edited December 10, 2014 by dave mcbride

[st pete gogolak]

I'll admit to a partial mea culpa in regard to the penalties (the "big four", ignoring the obvious head butt on Lee Smith that wasn't called even though a ref was looking right at it):

 

1. Defensive holding on Robey - assuming the call was on A. Williams (again what is basis for this? pure speculation?) it appears to be a very ticky-tacky call. Denver receiver appears to run right into him. Even if flag was against A. Williams still think it was a bad call.

 

2. Holding call on Kyle Williams. I'll concede on this. Dumb, dumb play. Don't think the guy he was engaged with would have had shot at Graham but it's possible. To me, this was biggest call of the game. If we punch it in from the 20 and go up 10-7, totally different game.

 

3. PI call on Gilmore. Bad call plain and simple. Ball got there same time as Gilmore. Hit was legal.

 

4. Call on Graham on Gilmore return. l'll concede on this one as well. Couple of questions. Was play by Denver player legal? If not, why wasn't it called? It's frustrating that an out and out dirty play gives Denver an advantage.

 

Bottom-line, whether deserved or not, the penalties killed us. Incredibly frustrating game to watch.

[Fan in Chicago]

Gerry: Check out what this piece implies about the importance of good guard play. Someone might want to send this to OBD: http://www.nytimes.c...sight.html?_r=0

 

 

Letting Levitre go and not signing a good replacement hurts to this day and will in the near future. This is why we sometimes need to overpay or, at a minimum, have a solid backup plan.

[GG]

I don't have a huge problem with shotgun on 3rd and 1 for two reasons - the Bills are a horrible straight-up ground and pound team on third/fourth and short (mostly because of their miserable interior line), and you can run out of the shotgun. Of course, this just begs the larger question - why don't the Bills ever run the safest and surest play in those situations - the QB sneak? They finally did it at the end of the game (probably because they didn't think the Broncos were set), and lo and behold it worked. Doesn't Brady have something like a 90 percent plus success rate on that play?

 

But that's the rub, Bills can't run out of the shot gun either. Hackett called a brilliant pass to Lee Smith for a TD, and Sheldon Richardson admitted that they weren't prepared for that play. But he said they were very familiar with every other play that the Bills ran.

 

And that's the issue. A team that can't consistently run for one yard out of a standard formation is not going to be able to run for that yard out of the shotgun.

[freeagentqb]

 

2. Holding call on Kyle Williams. I'll concede on this. Dumb, dumb play. Don't think the guy he was engaged with would have had shot at Graham but it's possible. To me, this was biggest call of the game. If we punch it in from the 20 and go up 10-7, totally different game.

 

Check out the all 22 view again. The guy Kyle was holding would have probably made the play. Graham ran right at him and sidestepped within a couple of yards of him as he was being held back big time by Kyle, Obvious penalty call and brutal play by Kyle, That was a well deserved penalty.

 

[Kelly the Dog]

Disagree, dog. What made the Martz offense so great in its heyday was the willingness to throw the ball down the field and risk ints. When with the Rams, Martz always regarded Warner's deep pass INTs as effectively punts. He figured they were ok to give up as long as they also got the ball into the hands of their deep-ball playmakers on a regular basis, which they did. And they scored and won a lot.

I agree with you and often say that a bomb that is intercepted is as good as a punt to stretch the field. But not on first down. That example he used was a first down play from the Denver 37. That was a crappy example, which is what I said.

 

I like bombs on first down, don't get me wrong. I don't think that was a bad call. It was just a bad example to use to prove his point. Graham was all over Sanders when he threw it. Then Sanders got a yard or two separation, then the pass was short and Graham intercepted.