Jeremy White All-22

[JC2002]

Hackett didn't even know what defensive scheme the Texans secondary were playing until last into the third quarter, and Mike Williams then went invisible for voicing that to the Buffalo Bills post game show. He stated 'we adjusted too late". Then he said things tend not to work when you are playing against a different scheme then the one you game planned for.

 

Most Bills fans just don't really just how bad this offensive coaching is, and has been all year. Kyle Orton is an average QB, and not elite. So why ask the guy to throw 57 times against the #4 ranked defense in the league. Just insane!

 

Ive been saying that for weeks . The interesting part is that Orton would have made or at least tried those throws when he first took over the team but since the bye week its as though hes been told be safe with the ball avoid turnovers and the defense will win it ...that is until late in the game when they realize its not working and then they get aggressive and finds some success. Its maddening .

[FireChan]

Hogan playing great compared to what? A different number 3 receiver? yay!

Dixon playing good on offense? Nothing special at all on offense. He is a great punt blocker though.

Sammy - 1 or 2 games? not exactly number one receiver talent. He should be a true threat in every game when he is healthy. He has not been a true threat in many games.

Woods - 1 great game. And lots of dropped passes in every other game. Again...not exactly stellar talent.

 

I will concede you Hogan. But none of those other guys are playing good enough football...none of them.

 

According to Jeremy White and half the mind slaves on this board, it is all Orton. Before that it was all Thad or Jeff Tuel or EJ.

 

I am more convinced than ever that Hackett sucks even more than I used to think.

 

What's your definition of "good enough?" If Dixon and Hogan aren't performing like All-Pros, Hackett sucks?

 

Hackett is a scapegoat, nothing more. Makes a few bad calls, but mostly does a pretty solid job.

 

Hackett is supposed to teach Robert Woods to not drop the football? Sammy has barely been healthy all year. First it was battling his ribs, then the groin. The kid winces every game. And In case you haven't noticed, our QB's need to actually throw catchable balls to him. How many floated 5 yards past him while wide open vs Denver? 2? 3? If Watkins is open, and the QB misses him, didn't the OC do his job? I mean, if the receiver gets open, it was a good play call and Sammy did his job, who does the onus of the play reside on if not the QB? I know, I know, I'm "making excuses."

 

Ive been saying that for weeks . The interesting part is that Orton would have made or at least tried those throws when he first took over the team but since the bye week its as though hes been told be safe with the ball avoid turnovers and the defense will win it ...that is until late in the game when they realize its not working and then they get aggressive and finds some success. Its maddening .

 

In retrospect, that wouldn't be too bad a thing if the QB could actually avoid TO's. But I don't think so, I think Orton is rattled from taking pops. He didn't have that panic in the pocket when he first started.

[PolishDave]

Ive been saying that for weeks . The interesting part is that Orton would have made or at least tried those throws when he first took over the team but since the bye week its as though hes been told be safe with the ball avoid turnovers and the defense will win it ...that is until late in the game when they realize its not working and then they get aggressive and finds some success. Its maddening .

If you are right that the coaches have told him to play more conservative, and I do believe you are right about that (Marrone constantly talks about avoiding mistakes especially turnovers), then it would explain his regression. It would also explain a lot about EJ that many people suspected. And yes it is maddening.

[Bookie Man]

That should help clear the BS about the refs being the reason we lost the game. Wasn't sure why people thought that to begin with considering the score was 24-3 at the end of 3 Quarters...

The officiating was pretty one sided, leading to that score. Not the reason we lost, but would have made a victory twice as hard.

[JC2002]

"

In retrospect, that wouldn't be too bad a thing if the QB could actually avoid TO's. But I don't think so, I think Orton is rattled from taking pops. He didn't have that panic in the pocket when he first started.

 

I dont think Ortons afraid of getting hit in Denver in 2010 he was 6th in pass plays over 20 yards and 3rd and pass plays over 40 yards and was sacked the sixth in sacks taken . Deep ball aggression is an offensive mentality a mistake or two doesnt stop it because you know you are gonna hit one sooner or later and I just dont get that vibe from the coaching staff . But then again we came out after they went up 14-3 with back to back designed deep ball plays and gave up sacks so I think the coaching staff gets bit gunshy until their hand is absolutely forced

[PolishDave]

What's your definition of "good enough?" If Dixon and Hogan aren't performing like All-Pros, Hackett sucks?

 

Hackett is a scapegoat, nothing more. Makes a few bad calls, but mostly does a pretty solid job.

 

Hackett is supposed to teach Robert Woods to not drop the football? Sammy has barely been healthy all year. First it was battling his ribs, then the groin. The kid winces every game. And In case you haven't noticed, our QB's need to actually throw catchable balls to him. How many floated 5 yards past him while wide open vs Denver? 2? 3? If Watkins is open, and the QB misses him, didn't the OC do his job? I mean, if the receiver gets open, it was a good play call and Sammy did his job, who does the onus of the play reside on if not the QB? I know, I know, I'm "making excuses."

 

See the thing is that I don't think any of those players you mentioned are bad players. I happen to think they are all pretty good. I think Woods and Watkins in particular are both GREAT talents.

 

And if there hasn't been one single quarterback who could get them the ball with any consistency in 2 years, then yes, I become increasingly suspicious that it is more the play design or scheme as opposed to the individual players' fault.

 

And what about all the other players on that offense? Are any of them playing better than average? And how many of them are even playing up to average? They're not. Position by position on offense you can go right down the row and say they are all underperforming with regularity. And I refuse to think that is because all 11 of those players are just bad players or just playing bad because they are in some kind of funk. It is up to the coaches to get players to perform to their best. The Bills aren't doing that with friggin anybody on offense. Not anybody.

[FireChan]

See the thing is that I don't think any of those players you mentioned are bad players. I happen to think they are all pretty good. I think Woods and Watkins in particular are both GREAT talents.

 

And if there hasn't been one single quarterback who could get them the ball with any consistency in 2 years, then yes, I become increasingly suspicious that it is more the play design or scheme as opposed to the individual players' fault.

 

And what about all the other players on that offense? Are any of them playing better than average? And how many of them are even playing up to average? They're not. Position by position on offense you can go right down the row and say they are all underperforming with regularity. And I refuse to think that is because all 11 of those players are just bad players or just playing bad because they are in some kind of funk. It is up to the coaches to get players to perform to their best. The Bills aren't doing that with friggin anybody on offense. Not anybody.

 

Examples? I'll try to give you some explanations if you would be a little more specific.

 

And you just said some of those guys are playing pretty well. But, like I said, if the receiver gets open and the QB misses him, how could the OC be at fault? How can the OC be responsible for the lack of production of the WR's when the QB can't get them the football.

Edited December 10, 2014 by FireChan

[Big Turk]

Yeah, I think it has to be the coaching regarding not throwing the deep ball. Orton did it the first few weeks he was here and now he almost never does. The looks are there. Single coverage with a single high safety that can't get there with a good throw...No idea what they are thinking not throwing those up for the WR's to at least have a chance...Orton can make the throw

[FireChan]

I dont think Ortons afraid of getting hit in Denver in 2010 he was 6th in pass plays over 20 yards and 3rd and pass plays over 40 yards and was sacked the sixth in sacks taken . Deep ball aggression is an offensive mentality a mistake or two doesnt stop it because you know you are gonna hit one sooner or later and I just dont get that vibe from the coaching staff . But then again we came out after they went up 14-3 with back to back designed deep ball plays and gave up sacks so I think the coaching staff gets bit gunshy until their hand is absolutely forced

 

He's older now, and probably in worse shape. And like you said, after back to back sacks, and after Orton missed a couple deeper passes, maybe it was time to go back to the short stuff. There's being aggressive and then being foolish.

[PolishDave]

Examples? I'll try to give you some explanations if you be a little more specific.

Pick one? Go right down the line. You know all 11 starters and the other players rotated in. Picky anyone of them that you think is outperforming or playing better than his talent level appeared last year or the year before. I suggested Henderson is playing well compared to how an objective person might have expected. Who else?

[FireChan]

Pick one? Go right down the line. You know all 11 starters and the other players rotated in. Picky anyone of them that you think is outperforming or playing better than his talent level appeared last year or the year before. I suggested Henderson is playing well compared to how an objective person might have expected. Who else?

 

I gave reasons for the WR's not producing. They are getting open, so I'll chalk that up as a + for the OC. Now, onto the line. Glenn is playing a little worse. But he's not getting much help from his LG. I'll say that you can't do much from a schematic standpoint. Wood? Again, poor help on both his left and right sides. When you gotta help both guards, it's hard ot perform at a high level on your own. And that's pretty much it. Our guards suck and are bringing the bright spots on the line down with them.

 

RB's? Fred's hurt plus he's 33 and we have two back-ups starting. Spiller is out.

 

TE's? Gragg did zero last year and was a seventh rounder. Any production out of him this year is a positive. Chandler? On his way to hit or surpass his regular numbers, and he's made some pretty nice plays this season. Lee Smith? Not really talented and not used too much in the passing game, but he's still been solid at blocking.

 

Who did I miss? What schemes or plays or what have you should Hackett use to help our O-line block? Maybe bring in extra TE's to chip pass rushers? (He's doing that). Or what about helping our QB complete passes? More short throws, screens when they're working, delayed handoffs and designed rollouts to negate the pass rush? (He's doing that).

 

I think many are confused as to what an OC actually does and leave it up to cursory analysis such as "get the best out of our players," or "control the offense." I'd love to hear some suggestions on what you'd do different. And Kelly, I've heard your suggestions, don't jump in.

 

In closing, how does Chip Kelly (a guy who I think is great at play design) look with Sancho at QB? Sometimes, it looks okay when his QB hits a throw. Sometimes, it looks like garbage when he can't. It's not called a QB driven league for nothing.

 

Edit: Whoops forgot Gray. Those plays designed for him within one week of him joining the team were great. Another positive.

Edited December 10, 2014 by FireChan

[PolishDave]

I gave reasons for the WR's not producing. They are getting open, so I'll chalk that up as a + for the OC. Now, onto the line. Glenn is playing a little worse. But he's not getting much help from his LG. I'll say that you can't do much from a schematic standpoint. Wood? Again, poor help on both his left and right sides. When you gotta help both guards, it's hard ot perform at a high level on your own. And that's pretty much it. Our guards suck and are bringing the bright spots on the line down with them.

 

RB's? Fred's hurt plus he's 33 and we have two back-ups starting. Spiller is out.

 

TE's? Gragg did zero last year and was a seventh rounder. Any production out of him this year is a positive. Chandler? On his way to hit or surpass his regular numbers, and he's made some pretty nice plays this season. Lee Smith? Not really talented and not used too much in the passing game, but he's still been solid at blocking.

 

Who did I miss? What schemes or plays or what have you should Hackett use to help our O-line block? Maybe bring in extra TE's to chip pass rushers? (He's doing that). Or what about helping our QB complete passes? More short throws, screens when they're working, delayed handoffs and designed rollouts to negate the pass rush? (He's doing that).

 

I think many are confused as to what an OC actually does and leave it up to cursory analysis such as "get the best out of our players," or "control the offense." I'd love to hear some suggestions on what you'd do different. And Kelly, I've heard your suggestions, don't jump in.

 

In closing, how does Chip Kelly (a guy who I think is great at play design) look with Sancho at QB? Sometimes, it looks okay when his QB hits a throw. Sometimes, it looks like garbage when he can't. It's not called a QB driven league for nothing.

Well I am glad that at least you admit pretty much nobody on that offense except maybe Henderson is playing better than any reasonably logical person would expect. Just admitting that fact alone is somewhat of an indictment of the offensive coaching of this team.

 

I stated how I would attack Green Bay in another thread on this forum. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/173974-offensive-strategy-for-beating-the-packers-this-sunday/

 

In general, I would run a spread offense and have Orton operating out of shotgun. I would run lots of draws and shovel passes out of the shotgun which should help compensate for poor run blocking. In fact, the Bills did it a few weeks ago and it worked well. (can't think of which game, but I distinctly remember them doing it because I was talking about them needing to try it on this forum leading up to whatever game that was.)

 

I would have my speed guys (Goodwin & Watkins) running more go routes and Chandler using the middle of the field frequently in the passing game.

 

I would be telling Orton he has my full blessing to throw deep as many times as he can as long as it is single coverage on the receiver. If he throws a pick, so be it.

 

I would also experiment with letting Orton run the two minute drill the entire game or at least during more parts of the game especially after the Bills get a turnover from the other team.

 

I would throw for the home run the first play every single time the other team committed a turnover.

 

Those are some of the things I would try off the top of my head.

[FireChan]

Well I am glad that at least you admit pretty much nobody on that offense except maybe Henderson is playing better than any reasonably logical person would expect. Just admitting that fact alone is somewhat of an indictment of the offensive coaching of this team.

 

I stated how I would attack Green Bay in another thread on this forum. http://forums.twobil...rs-this-sunday/

 

In general, I would run a spread offense and have Orton operating out of shotgun. I would run lots of draws and shovel passes out of the shotgun which should help compensate for poor run blocking. In fact, the Bills did it a few weeks ago and it worked well. (can't think of which game, but I distinctly remember them doing it because I was talking about them needing to try it on this forum leading up to whatever game that was.)

 

I would have my speed guys (Goodwin & Watkins) running more go routes and Chandler using the middle of the field frequently in the passing game.

 

I would be telling Orton he has my full blessing to throw deep as many times as he can as long as it is single coverage on the receiver. If he throws a pick, so be it.

 

I would also experiment with letting Orton run the two minute drill the entire game or at least during more parts of the game especially after the Bills get a turnover from the other team.

 

I would throw for the home run the first play every single time the other team committed a turnover.

 

Those are some of the things I would try off the top of my head.

 

I think it was KC. Although I do remember a distinct number of posters hating the draw last season.

 

Anyway, I'll respond piece by piece.

 

Well I am glad that at least you admit pretty much nobody on that offense except maybe Henderson is playing better than any reasonably logical person would expect. Just admitting that fact alone is somewhat of an indictment of the offensive coaching of this team.

 

Completely disagree. Our guards would play bad no matter the scheme, same with QB. Maybe a different gameplan would mitigate how much that affects our team, but you can't hold not being able to turn chicken **** into chicken salad against our staff. Unless you also think the Sanchez era is an indictment on Chip Kelly.

 

In general, I would run a spread offense and have Orton operating out of shotgun. I would run lots of draws and shovel passes out of the shotgun which should help compensate for poor run blocking. In fact, the Bills did it a few weeks ago and it worked well.

 

Sure. The problem is, the shovel pass becomes predictable, but I'm fully on board with more draws. I think we ran it a couple times against Denver before we got down big. Spread offense, sure.

 

I would have my speed guys (Goodwin & Watkins) running more go routes and Chandler using the middle of the field frequently in the passing game.

 

Yeah, sure. But what if Orton is getting blown up? Stick with the go routes?

 

I would be telling Orton he has my full blessing to throw deep as many times as he can as long as it is single coverage on the receiver. If he throws a pick, so be it.

 

Would this be enough to prevent him from checking down too early? I have seen him bail out of plays on more than one occasion in fear of the pressure. As someone stated earlier, I have never seen a QB not have the green light to throw down the field on single coverage on the Bills. In fact, that was all Jeff Tuel and Thad Lewis did.

 

I would also experiment with letting Orton run the two minute drill the entire game or at least during more parts of the game especially after the Bills get a turnover from the other team.

 

I actually kinda like this. Go for the throat approach. That's a lot of passing though.

 

I would throw for the home run the first play every single time the other team committed a turnover.

 

Completely agree, but off the top of my head, I think the Bills do this a fair amount. Doing it every time is very predictable.

[PolishDave]

I think overall this offense is designed with the quarterback doing way too much thinking and analyzing while in the pocket and that is at least partially responsible for some of the lack of production.

 

Before the snap of the ball, the quarterback should be reasonably certain where he is going with the football so that he can just do a quick check and let it fly. The most effective passing teams usually operate this way, most specifically New England and Denver. The reason they can get rid of the ball so quickly is because the QB is almost certain where he is going with the ball even before the snap. They don't have to drop back and make 3 reads. They make one and they know, because of experience and because of the play design vs the defense out there, they know that they receiver is very likely to be open.

 

This is also a large part of the reason why the K-gun was so effective when Jim Kelly used to operate it.

 

Yes it helps a lot that those two quarterbacks are exceptionally accurate. I don't expect a Bills quarterback like Orton to be that accurate. But I do expect the offensive coaches to be able to design the same types of plays or simply just copy the exact plays that those other more effective offenses are running. The Bills won't execute them with the same efficacy as those teams, but why can't the Bills execute them with 80% as much success as those better teams. If they can't it says a lot about the lack of ability of the coaching staff.

[The Big Cat]

I think overall this offense is designed with the quarterback doing way too much thinking and analyzing while in the pocket and that is at least partially responsible for some of the lack of production.

 

Before the snap of the ball, the quarterback should be reasonably certain where he is going with the football so that he can just do a quick check and let it fly. The most effective passing teams usually operate this way, most specifically New England and Denver. The reason they can get rid of the ball so quickly is because the QB is almost certain where he is going with the ball even before the snap. They don't have to drop back and make 3 reads. They make one and they know, because of experience and because of the play design vs the defense out there, they know that they receiver is very likely to be open.

 

This is also a large part of the reason why the K-gun was so effective when Jim Kelly used to operate it.

 

Yes it helps a lot that those two quarterbacks are exceptionally accurate. I don't expect a Bills quarterback like Orton to be that accurate. But I do expect the offensive coaches to be able to design the same types of plays or simply just copy the exact plays that those other more effective offenses are running. The Bills won't execute them with the same efficacy as those teams, but why can't the Bills execute them with 80% as much success as those better teams. If they can't it says a lot about the lack of ability of the coaching staff.

 

This level of expectation is ludicrous. You realize this, yes?

 

You've just set the standard for offensive coaching success as preparing KYLE !@#$ING ORTON to be as clear, efficient, accurate and effective in his presnap reads...as Peyton !@#$ing Manning and Tom !@#$ing Brady.

 

I mean...come on.

 

Lets make this very, very simple.

 

If a 10 year QB has a receiver running free in single coverage downfield, plenty of time to throw and he opts to check down to a blanketed receiver behind the line, who's to blame?

 

The guy with the ball in his hand? Or the guy who designed a play that had an open receiver and an effective blocking scheme?

 

How anybody can ague the latter, I'll never, ever understand.

[PolishDave]

This level of expectation is ludicrous. You realize this, yes?

 

You've just set the standard for offensive coaching success as preparing KYLE !@#$ING ORTON to be as clear, efficient, accurate and effective in his presnap reads...as Peyton !@#$ing Manning and Tom !@#$ing Brady.

 

I mean...come on.

Nope..Those are your words not mine.

 

I specifically said 80% as efficient. And only on a handful of passing plays that are run regularly on just about every series lake Brady's over the middle plays to Edelmen and Gronkowski. They run them again and again and again series after series and continually execute them. The Bills should be able to execute those exact same plays with about 80% the efficiency as those guys.

 

Edelman is used just as Welker was in the same friggin plays. And the Patriots continue to convert first downs with them game after game after game. And they don't require the offensive line to perform any kind of spectacular pass blocking.

 

But don't use the Patriots as an example if you don't want. Pick any highly effective passing team and you will see they do the same thing. They execute the same plays with regularity that don't rely on the offensive line doing anything spectacular. An above average o-line makes them even more effective. But part of the reason their offensive lines look so good is because the pass is airborne quickly.

[Manther]

http://www.wgr550.co...Wanted/20485040

 

"Am I asking for a lot? Possibly. Shouldn't the team ask for more? How can the Bills come back next season with the same mindset on offense. It's all about protecting the ball and playing close to the vest. There isn't any feeling that they're willing to take shots down the field. They aren't bold offensively. I think there are plays to be made (this is why I rarely get after the OC because he calls plenty of plays that would work with proper execution, which is how I feel about most OCs in this league).

 

You want a new OC? Go ahead and get one. I think you're destined to get the same results from the same quarterbacks that aren't able to make the big play when it breaks down."

 

 

--further down--

 

"This coaching staff tried to get EJ Manuel to rip it, and he now sits on the bench lamenting the fact that he never truly did. Manuel has said that if he gets another chance, he'll be more aggressive in throwing the ball. Great! Let's see it tomorrow! If Kyle Orton isn't going to make throws down the field, then what are we here for?"

IMHO...teams take on the personalities of their coach and their opinions.

 

So, it is just my thoughts but I am guessing the coaches preach taking care of the ball to a fault. For example, coaches should not scare or worry their players about making some mistakes. They need to learn from them and improve by doing so....to a degree.

 

Manuel and Orton both threw down field more when they took over as starter and then slowly regressed. Maybe Marrone and Hackett are too passive and preaching the wrong things and the players are playing on eggshells instead of playing. Maybe with the Oline too? Remember Kujo's comments earlier in the season. And Manuel's when he was removed as starter. I don't think Schwartz has the defense playing like this, fyi. Thoughts?

Edited December 10, 2014 by Manther

[Bookie Man]

I'm not saying the refs cost us the game or were pulling for Denver with celebratory fist bumps. But if you didn't think they favored Denver, I'd have to disagree. Ok Kyle Williams held. Corey Graham acknowledged he was guilty of unnecessary roughness. What about the guy that torpedoed at his knee caps to make him retaliate? Honestly, I'm not sure if it's a penalty or not. I know you can't block someone at their knees, not sure about taking out blockers at their knees. Graham says it's a penalty. What about the flag for defensive holding that got picked up because, the ball had been thrown? Have you ever seen that before? I know flags get picked up all the time. But I've never heard that explanation before. And the PI call on Williams (Robey)? That ball was pretty close to "already been thrown" as well. The PI on Gilmore? Get real. Even the commentators were like "What the hell do you want him to do??" And the helmet to human skull headbutt? Good no call there. But yeah, they called an even game. #GTFOH!!

[The Big Cat]

 

IMHO...teams take on the personalities of their coach and their opinions.

 

So, it is just my thoughts but I am guessing the coaches preach taking care of the ball to a fault. For example, coaches should not scare or worry their players about making some mistakes. They need to learn from them and improve by doing so....to a degree.

 

Manuel and Orton both threw down field more when they took over as starter and then slowly regressed. Maybe Marrone and Hackett are too passive and preaching the wrong things and the players are playing on eggshells instead of playing. Maybe with the Oline too? Remember Kujo's comments earlier in the season. And Manuel's when he was removed as starter. I don't think Schwartz has the defense playing like this, fyi. Thoughts?

 

I think that's a load of crap.

 

You think a guy with the kind of drive and determination like Tom Brady can get coached into timidity? How bout a guy like Big Ben?

 

When you're a professional quarterback the ball is in YOUR hands. You control what happens on the field. Anything else is a lame excuse.

[FireChan]

IMHO...teams take on the personalities of their coach and their opinions.

 

So, it is just my thoughts but I am guessing the coaches preach taking care of the ball to a fault. For example, coaches should not scare or worry their players about making some mistakes. They need to learn from them and improve by doing so....to a degree.

 

Manuel and Orton both threw down field more when they took over as starter and then slowly regressed. Maybe Marrone and Hackett are too passive and preaching the wrong things and the players are playing on eggshells instead of playing. Maybe with the Oline too? Remember Kujo's comments earlier in the season. And Manuel's when he was removed as starter. I don't think Schwartz has the defense playing like this, fyi. Thoughts?

 

Even if Marrone is preaching ball security, the players aren't even following that advice. Orton has thrown some brutal picks, and then there's the fumbling. Dear god, so much fumbling.