Kelly the Dog Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 ...but it wasn't. Welker caught it. At least Broncos fans know enough to blame their QB. Us? We're left having these stupid arguments because the QB's doing give anyone a chance. Guess what! Sometimes the defense screws up. Sometimes they commit penalties, sometimes they do like Aaron Williams on the play you mention. The only time they don't do those things is when they're NEVER challenged. We were SCREAMING for this at the bar on Sunday. And the tape shows--quite clearly--that receivers were put in a position to force the defense to make a play and nobody, our guys included, was asked to do a damn thing. Instead? Orton dumps it off to a blanketed receiver in the flat for a three yard loss. You can't POSSIBLY think the coaching staff is encouraging that...can you!? Of course not. WTF are you talking about? I think we should have been throwing the ball downfield to Watkins and Woods all day. Even forcing it to them if we had to. And getting Smith and Gray out of the game and putting Goodwin and Hogan and Chandler in to run seams down the middle. And yes, making Orton throw the ball down the field. I think they tell him don't make mistakes and I don't think they tell him to get the friggin' ball downfield or he would more times. He's been awful for a month. I have said that repeatedly and havent supported him much at all in 5-6 weeks. He's sucked. But that doesnt mean it's a black and white world and only one person can suck or be held responsible at a time. The coached have equally sucked for not doing several things that have been repeated here ad nauseum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted December 9, 2014 Author Share Posted December 9, 2014 Of course not. WTF are you talking about? I think we should have been throwing the ball downfield to Watkins and Woods all day. Even forcing it to them if we had to. And getting Smith and Gray out of the game and putting Goodwin and Hogan and Chandler in to run seams down the middle. And yes, making Orton throw the ball down the field. I think they tell him don't make mistakes and I don't think they tell him to get the friggin' ball downfield or he would more times. He's been awful for a month. I have said that repeatedly and havent supported him much at all in 5-6 weeks. He's sucked. But that doesnt mean it's a black and white world and only one person can suck or be held responsible at a time. The coached have equally sucked for not doing several things that have been repeated here ad nauseum. So you don't think when they switch on the film that someone says, hey, Kyle, throw the !@#$ing ball to the receivers in single coverage? I don't grasp this reality wherein plays are designed to get players open or in single coverage down field, the QB holds it and dumps to a guy covered standing five feet away from him...and we blame the coaches. The guy with the !@#$ing ball in his hands has to make a play. Period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) I'm glad he took a look at the play where he play-acted, Woods ran his double move deep, Sammy went across the middle, the safety committed to Watkins, Orton had all sorts of time, and then threw incomplete to Smith in the flat. That touches upon several things Hackett takes the blame for but our QB should. 1.) All three LB bit HARD on the play action fake. That is PRECISELY because Hackett sets that up with his multiple TEs and his OL selling run action on plays PRIOR to that. When defenses are seeing run action by the OL, it is so easy to beat them with play action later. And that is all set up by those 3 TE sets he gets dinged for. Nice job Hackett. 2.) Hackett is accused of designing an offense that doesn't seek to go deep. He CONSTANTLY gets guys open deep. In this case Orton didn't have the balls to hit Woods. Again, nice play design. I don't know what happened, but last year ALL of our QBs had the green light when they spotted press man with single safety coverage. And we saw EJ, Lewis, and Tuel ALL have success deep. It's hard to believe Orton didn't see it. He's just too timid. 3.) The "Orton Slide" play was FUBAR from the snap. GO BILLS!!! I agree with 2 but there wouldnt even be three LBs on the field if he didnt have those formations. And just because you use three wides doesn't mean you run any less. You run just as much and play action works just as much when you can run. And I'm not at all saying we should scrap 2-3 TEs and bunches. Only that we should switch the amount we use it. I think you'll find the vast majority of the successful plays we have made have come out of the 3 wide. Not all for sure, but most. I've been watching it for months. The guy with the !@#$ing ball in his hands has to make a play. Period. Untrue. The guy has to make the play. The coaches have to put guys in the best position to make plays. The coaches have to minimize weaknesses and maximize strengths. Other guys have to make plays on the same play. Edited December 9, 2014 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 He also makes a really great point that the Broncos throw the ball downfield, and uses the example of them getting picked off. Good one, Jer. And even says I know they got picked off but they try it. Jesus. I want them to throw the ball deep too. Get Goodwin in the game and overthrow it if you have to. But don't use an INT as an example to illustrate it. The first deep ball Manning threw that was caught by Welker should have been intercepted or at least knocked down by AWilliams who just screwed up. He only used it as an example because it was the exact same dig route for both teams with the exact same read, only two different results (manning throws it where it should go and orton checks down. The pass sailed on Manning and I yelled 'interception!' at the TV the moment he threw it. It had nothing to do with the coverage or the D. It was a perfect demonstration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 I'm on record--in the thick of Orton's blazing debut--as questioning how sustainable his performances were. well, i suppose we atleast have that in common! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted December 9, 2014 Author Share Posted December 9, 2014 I agree with 2 but there wouldnt even be three LBs on the field if he didnt have those formations. And just because you use three wides doesn't mean you run any less. You run just as much and play action works just as much when you can run. And I'm not at all saying we should scrap 2-3 TEs and bunches. Only that we should switch the amount we use it. I think you'll find the vast majority of the successful plays we have made have come out of the 3 wide. Not all for sure, but most. I've been watching it for months. Untrue. Having three LB's on the field played to our advantage... Also... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Oh Jesus. Thad liked to sling it. He also liked to fumble. But I'll take a slinger at this point, any day of the week (particularly when we're up against Rodgers who can/will score in the blink of an eye.) As for the slide play, it REALLY looks like Hogan screwed the pooch on that one. But Sammy's got to have some better improvisational awareness there. Let's hope he matures into that. Last year you could make that call from your couch whenever we had single man press coverage and single safety. Whether it was EJ, Lewis, or Tuel, they went for it and had success on several occasions. That doesn't speak to an OC who seeks to handcuff his QBs. I mean Tuel had the green light for crissakes. Now, that doesn't mean that Marrone doesn't march to the drumbeat of "no negative plays, no negative plays, no negative plays." But man, when it's there, it's there. Agree about the slide play. I think the play may have been designed to go to Freddy, actually. Hogan's chip would have created the space he needed for an easy pitch and catch for a few yards. But geez, it looked as though Orton was looking right at Hogan, too. I don't know. Maybe not the best playcall, but given the execution, it was destined to be a bad play. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 2.) Hackett is accused of designing an offense that doesn't seek to go deep. He CONSTANTLY gets guys open deep. In this case Orton didn't have the balls to hit Woods. Again, nice play design. I don't know what happened, but last year ALL of our QBs had the green light when they spotted press man with single safety coverage. And we saw EJ, Lewis, and Tuel ALL have success deep. It's hard to believe Orton didn't see it. He's just too timid. it seemed like last year they had a green light but especially EJ seemed to be VERY timid with his ball placement. much of the year i was questioning if he was being instructed to place it in the "safe" spot that was often hard to make a play at, as opposed to a more aggressive spot for the WR to be able to more easily make a play on - or if it was just him making the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 He only used it as an example because it was the exact same dig route for both teams with the exact same read, only two different results (manning throws it where it should go and orton checks down. The pass sailed on Manning and I yelled 'interception!' at the TV the moment he threw it. It had nothing to do with the coverage or the D. It was a perfect demonstration. He wasnt open at all when Manning looks and throws it. At that split second Graham is closer to the Bronco WR Manning threw to than the other WRs who were covered too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) I agree with 2 but there wouldnt even be three LBs on the field if he didnt have those formations. And just because you use three wides doesn't mean you run any less. You run just as much and play action works just as much when you can run. But that's the idea; to take advantage of those three LBs. There is simply nothing wrong with mixing up your personnel packages when it results in those opportunities. That's precisely why you show that grouping earlier; to set it up, have them bite and leave the entire middle of the field open for your two best playmakers in Watkins and Woods to take advantage. Yes, you should be able to run out of 3 WR, 11 sets, but I don't think this OL has as much success with that as they do when we go to a heavier formation. And I'm not at all saying we should scrap 2-3 TEs and bunches. Only that we should switch the amount we use it. I think you'll find the vast majority of the successful plays we have made have come out of the 3 wide. Not all for sure, but most. I've been watching it for months. We don't run as many of those TE bunch sets as you think. Point is, we DO get the desired run game much of the time, our OLine shows run action out of that set most of the time, and we get open guys because of the play action that run action generates. Regardless of how anyone feels about Hackett/Marrone's schemes, it's uncanny how they've been able to get receivers running open so frequently all year. That's on the QB more than anyone else. There's just no refuting that when it's been so painfully obvious all year. GO BILLS!!! Edited December 9, 2014 by K-9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 But that's the idea; to take advantage of those three LBs. There is simply nothing wrong with mixing up your personnel packages when it results in those opportunities. That's precisely why you show that grouping earlier; to set it up, have them bite and leave the entire middle of the field open for your two best playmakers in Watkins and Woods to take advantage. Yes, you should be able to run out of 3 WR, 11 sets, but I don't think this OL has as much success with that as they do when we go to a heavier formation. We don't run as many of those TE bunch sets as you think. Point is, we DO get the desired run game much of the time, our OLine shows run action out of that set most of the time, and we get open guys because of the play action that run action generates. Regardless of how anyone feels about Hackett/Marrone's schemes, it's uncanny how they've been able to get receivers running open so frequently all year. That's on the QB more than anyone else. There's just no refuting that when it's been so painfully obvious all year. GO BILLS!!! There is no refuting more of our success has come from the spread formations. There's no refuting our playmakers are our wideouts, especially when Fred and CJ are hurt or hurting. There's no refuting our worst players on offense are Lee Smith and Chris Gragg along with our guards. There's no refuting that with the close formations every single team we have faced has loaded the box and crept closer and closer to the line and dared us to beat them and we don't beat them nearly enough. Of course we could use better Qbing, but the success we have had, despite your excellent example and explanation of that one play, has been out of three wides and getting the ball to Sammy or Woods or Hogan/Chandler down the seam or in the flat after Sammy and Woods cleared them out. That has been our success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 There is no refuting more of our success has come from the spread formations. There's no refuting our playmakers are our wideouts, especially when Fred and CJ are hurt or hurting. There's no refuting our worst players on offense are Lee Smith and Chris Gragg along with our guards. There's no refuting that with the close formations every single team we have faced has loaded the box and crept closer and closer to the line and dared us to beat them and we don't beat them nearly enough. Of course we could use better Qbing, but the success we have had, despite your excellent example and explanation of that one play, has been out of three wides and getting the ball to Sammy or Woods or Hogan/Chandler down the seam or in the flat after Sammy and Woods cleared them out. That has been our success. There's no refuting we'll have to agree to disagree on the formation issue. We can agree we need even competent play out of our QBs, regardless. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 So you don't think when they switch on the film that someone says, hey, Kyle, throw the !@#$ing ball to the receivers in single coverage? I don't grasp this reality wherein plays are designed to get players open or in single coverage down field, the QB holds it and dumps to a guy covered standing five feet away from him...and we blame the coaches. The guy with the !@#$ing ball in his hands has to make a play. Period. I'm gonna throw this out there. I haven't caught the all-22 in a while. But last year and early this year Hackett was notorious for basically trying to clear out the center of the field for and in route, with a back up as a check down. Is it possible that yes , the first and second reads on this play are not to the go routes but to the underneath. We outsmart ourselves all the time in play selection when it comes to running right into other teams strengths. EJ and Orton might seem to be in check down mode this season because that's the actual play design. Hell, maybe this is all fooey. Not sure I fully support the premise, but I wouldn't put it past the staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in Chicago Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 well, i suppose we atleast have that in common! Oh nice. I suppose you and Big Cat may have found common ground. Finally. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 There's no refuting we'll have to agree to disagree on the formation issue. We can agree we need even competent play out of our QBs, regardless. GO BILLS!!! Yup and yup. GO BILLS! GO K-9! Kelly the Dog being named after a K-9 named Jim Kelly, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackInDaDay Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 This afternoon I bought the $10 , 7 day gamerewind subscription, to see for myself what's happening. I didn't read the small print that tells customers that the coaches views aren't included in the weekly.. duh.. but they cancelled it and say they're going to refund the ten bucks.. But I did see something on the broadcast view that was eerily reminiscent of what i saw last year. On Orton's first pick, the Bronco LB who made the play, barely had to move. Both.. and I repeat.. both Chandler and Hogan curled to either side of him - Chandler to his right, and Hogan to his left. This is ridiculous execution at the high school level, and the fact that a 10 year vet chose to throw it makes it even more bewildering. We've been running into coverages for two years! Watch it if you get a chance. Also.. the forced throw to Woods, whose CB shadowed and jumped his route was another head scratcher.. there wasn't any seperation, and Orton waited until these two drove to the goaline and the single safety over the top, before throwing it. I know I'd find a lot more atrocities like this if it were my job.. but I' m telling you guys.. a freakin team in wheelchairs could defend some of these routes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Can't the coaches and QB both suck? Big Cat I'm talking to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackInDaDay Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Can't the coaches and QB both suck? Big Cat I'm talking to you. If I may.. yes! I thought it was this kind of loosey goosey execution that got Hilliard fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 That should help clear the BS about the refs being the reason we lost the game. Wasn't sure why people thought that to begin with considering the score was 24-3 at the end of 3 Quarters... 2 touchdowns off the ridiculous calls......on third down meaning td does not happen 10-3 changes a hell of a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Its easy to say "take shots down field" but Orton on most playa against Denver had no time and he doesn't have the ability to buy time with his legs. EJ does but he's been benched Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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