B-Man Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Intelligence Birtherism The Senate report willfully ignores facts. enator Dianne Feinstein and the Democrats of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence have released their summary report into the Bush-era CIA detention/interrogation program. While senior Democrats have little credibility on this issue — consider Nancy Pelosi, who has consistently misrepresented her CIA briefings — today they proudly claimed the mantle of honest objectivity. The summary makes four key claims: The CIA’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” were not effective. The CIA provided extensive inaccurate information about the operation of the program and its effectiveness to policymakers and the public. The CIA’s management of the program was inadequate and deeply flawed. The CIA program was far more brutal than it represented to policymakers and the American public. The product of selective half-truths and deliberate deception, these claims are ludicrous, because the CIA’s enhanced-interrogation techniques (EITs) were manifestly successful. Breaking key figures in al-Qaeda’s international network, the EITs afforded America a unique window into al-Qaeda’s network structure, operational methodology, and strategic intent, as any honest examination of the record will show. While the report claims that the CIA acted far more aggressively than represented by its officials, the simple fact is that the EITs were not designed to be pleasant. Moreover, as former CIA deputy director Jose Rodriguez outlined last Friday, Democrats knew about and supported the EITs. They were right to do so, for the program was designed to defeat al-Qaeda training manuals. Those manuals inculcated AQ officers with the belief that U.S. interrogators would attempt to trick and manipulate them but would not apply measured physical or psychological force. And by applying the EITs, CIA interrogators were able to wrest control over their subjects and gain crucial intelligence. More at the link: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) Pretty certain we're in the same generation. And I think you're wrong. This isn't about tolerance. It's about right and wrong. Either we're a nation that stands by its ideals or we're not. I assumed you were significantly older than me (15+ years) but maybe we are. Maybe I am wrong (hopefully I am). Torture is reprehensible, but I'm not going to claim that the US is above it. Regardless, more should have been done when we had the chance: forcing complete and total capitulation. No mercy, no conditions. Edited December 10, 2014 by LeviF91 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I assumed you were significantly older than me (15+ years) but maybe we are. Maybe I am wrong (hopefully I am). You're only wrong if you're not old enough to vote at the moment... I'm a windbag, just not really an old windbag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Uhhhh....................okay Sandra Fluke @SandraFluke Horrified by #TortureReport & by how it mirrors domestic challenges of #sexualassault & violence against men of color by authority figures. 2:08 PM - 9 Dec 2014 Mother JonesVerified account @MotherJones Here are some of the songs interrogators chose to torture detainees http://bit.ly/1vKljXt Some from the list: Barney & Friends: theme song Metallica: Enter Sandman Meow Mix: commercial jingle Janeane Garofalo/Ben Stiller: chapter from the Feel This Audiobook Sesame Street: theme song Garofalo ? those fiends ! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Because we live in a country that's supposed to be better than this. Because we live in a republic where we have a right to know what the state is doing, especially with our tax dollars. Because the only way to get past mistakes is to be honest about them. There is NO reason, NOT ONE, to keep this secret. All it would do is compound the issue. I agree, plus we have laws and they were broken. People should be in jail and yet they never will be. Truth is the reason. If people do die now, you should thank the people who implemented an illegal and immoral program not those who expose just some of the truth of it (as even this report is censored and admititedly not complete). http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/12/09/here-come-the-torture-apologists/?action=click&contentCollection=Opinion®ion=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article I have to laugh at this Intelligence Birtherism umm really unbiased that, you gotta be kidding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Awesome http://news.yahoo.com/fox-news-host-torture-report-235001597.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Awesome http://news.yahoo.co...-235001597.html She should have just given the standard "What difference does it make?" response. Then you idiot liberals could titter on and on about her and make her a Presidential candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keukasmallies Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 This is bigger than politics. I'm not in it for a witch hunt. All the more reason to release this. The only way to avoid mistakes in the future is to learn from those in the past. I'm not taking a moral high ground... the fact that arguing against torture is even being called "taking the moral high ground" shows how far down the slope we've already slid! Think about it. Holy crap... think about what you're saying without the political filter for a moment. I'm as real world as it gets when it comes to matters of national defense and security, I really am. And I'm not an idealist who thinks every bit of intelligence gathering can be accomplished within the letter of the law -- but this was a program signed off and approved by the state that goes against everything we're supposed to stand for in this country. Exactly. That's why the Senators and Congresspersons who were briefed regularly and "knew about" these activities will never permit charges to be brought against whomever. Charges would shine the flashlight of responsibility into the dark corners of Congress. With regard to sliding down the slippery slope, I wonder how we will combat beheadings by reading Miranda rights to the executioners who feed on the publicity of the original act....? I also wonder about the acceptability of "droning" the household of a terrorist leader, but publicly denouncing sleep deprivation, loud music over time and waterboarding to determine the location of that household. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I don’t understand the “conservative” stance on this issue – are conservatives for or against following the law and following the rules of reporting to your superiors? If you are for the rule of law and following reporting – how can you be “for” the torture outlined in this report? Or are conservative’s ideals not strong enough to be seen with Democrats? The one conservative who is strong enough is John McCain – who was on the receiving end of torture and probably knows it is something below our country and as well doesn’t work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) the arguments made here that attempt to defend the use of torture are the same ones used by despots throughout history to defend their evil actions. almost any act can seemingly be justified by the belief that the ends justify the means as long as one defines their own ends as crucial and legitimate. to the nazi's and khmer rouge this meant mass murders. the romans systematically tortured and killed those that stood in the way of their ends. history has not judged them well. reasonable people agree that these actions were deplorable and vow to do everything possible to never let them happen again. yet in a country that espouses liberty as a core value we have those using the same ancient and fallacious argument to defend torture. almost comical if it were't so alarming. Edited December 10, 2014 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 She should have just given the standard "What difference does it make?" response. Then you idiot liberals could titter on and on about her and make her a Presidential candidate. "You idiot whatever" thank you. I am sure you help your cause a lot with that kind of well reasoned bs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 You're insane. And you're an Egyptian living in denial. Oh, !@#$. Not the !@#$ing Nazi werewolves again... Whadda expect? He believes in extraterrestrials and zombies. It was after dark and I was trying to give him nightmares, otherwise I would have just referenced the Waffen SS and Unit 731. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 the arguments made here that attempt to defend the use of torture are the same ones used by despots throughout history to defend their evil actions. almost any act can seemingly be justified by the belief that the ends justify the means as long as one defines their own ends as crucial and legitimate. to the nazi's and khmer rouge this meant mass murders. the romans systematically tortured and killed those that stood in the way of their ends. history has not judged them well. reasonable people agree that these actions were deplorable and vow to do everything possible to never let them happen again. yet in a country that espouses liberty as a core value we have those using the same ancient and fallacious argument to defend torture. almost comical if it were't so alarming. Pretty much the same things can be pointed right back at virtually every liberal policy. It doesn't matter that Charlie Garner got killed because government employees were enforcing ridiculous laws passed because the ever bloated government needs every dollar it can get to curry favor with the "high information" voters. It doesn't matter that "ObamaCare" is a huge lie and that one of the architects is slowly but surely exposing. It doesn't matter that the President is governing by Executive Fiat. I'm sure right now you're championing getting those laws overthrown, right? You're a hypocrite and you've always been one. As I said earlier, it's pretty easy for the government to police itself in this instance without having to put innocent Americans in harm's way. They didn't expose this information for any reason other than the midterm ass-kicking they took. This administration and those in power in the Democratic party have zero interest in transparent government. That much is completely obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Pretty much the same things can be pointed right back at virtually every liberal policy. It doesn't matter that Charlie Garner got killed because government employees were enforcing ridiculous laws passed because the ever bloated government needs every dollar it can get to curry favor with the "high information" voters. It doesn't matter that "ObamaCare" is a huge lie and that one of the architects is slowly but surely exposing. It doesn't matter that the President is governing by Executive Fiat. I'm sure right now you're championing getting those laws overthrown, right? You're a hypocrite and you've always been one. As I said earlier, it's pretty easy for the government to police itself in this instance without having to put innocent Americans in harm's way. They didn't expose this information for any reason other than the midterm ass-kicking they took. This administration and those in power in the Democratic party have zero interest in transparent government. That much is completely obvious. sure. obamacare and torture are analogous. i think we can end any serious consideration of your argument right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 sure. obamacare and torture are analogous. i think we can end any serious consideration of your argument right there. Which one actually affects the average American on a daily basis? The President is basically wiping his ass with the Constitution and your response is "meh" because you and the rest of the liberals don't understand consequence. You're also making a strawman argument because I've said nothing about the torture aspect, only the idiot Democrat leaders who just made your world a lot less safe and endangered every military person and first responder's life by at least a factor because all they care about is politics. You are a nearly perfect drone. Once again, you're only for "following the law" when it suits your politics. I'm sure the next step for Democratic leadership is a full DOJ investigation complete with charges/convictions for those who broke the law because that will be a positive step towards keeping this kind of behavior in check. That'll happen, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Bull ****. We haven't seen an enemy like this since the Nazi werwolves and the Japanese fanatics in WWII. This least generation wouldn't have stood a chance at beating those fanatics who would rather die than surrender. The North Vietnamese? sure. obamacare and torture are analogous. i think we can end any serious consideration of your argument right there. Which one actually affects the average American on a daily basis? The President is basically wiping his ass with the Constitution and your response is "meh" because you and the rest of the liberals don't understand consequence. You're also making a strawman argument because I've said nothing about the torture aspect, only the idiot Democrat leaders who just made your world a lot less safer and endangered every military person and first responder's life by at least a factor because all they care about is politics. You are a nearly perfect drone. Once again, you're only for "following the law" when it suits your politics. I'm sure the next step for Democratic leadership is a full DOJ investigation complete with charges/convictions for those who broke the law because that will be a positive step towards keeping this kind of behavior in check. That'll happen, right? Democrats bad!! Pretty much the same things can be pointed right back at virtually every liberal policy. It doesn't matter that Charlie Garner got killed because government employees were enforcing ridiculous laws passed because the ever bloated government needs every dollar it can get to curry favor with the "high information" voters. It doesn't matter that "ObamaCare" is a huge lie and that one of the architects is slowly but surely exposing. It doesn't matter that the President is governing by Executive Fiat. I'm sure right now you're championing getting those laws overthrown, right? You're a hypocrite and you've always been one. As I said earlier, it's pretty easy for the government to police itself in this instance without having to put innocent Americans in harm's way. They didn't expose this information for any reason other than the midterm ass-kicking they took. This administration and those in power in the Democratic party have zero interest in transparent government. That much is completely obvious. Wow, keep it up, you will give Ocin a run for his money!!! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keukasmallies Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I don’t understand the “conservative” stance on this issue – are conservatives for or against following the law and following the rules of reporting to your superiors? If you are for the rule of law and following reporting – how can you be “for” the torture outlined in this report? Or are conservative’s ideals not strong enough to be seen with Democrats? The one conservative who is strong enough is John McCain – who was on the receiving end of torture and probably knows it is something below our country and as well doesn’t work. Being able to recall the end of WW II, and having seen Korea, Vietnam, and various other formal and informal international dust ups, I must admit that there is a point, when we are under direct physical attack, here or abroad, at which I'm OK with turning the tables on the enemy and using extraordinary methods to respond. I don't want any part of beheading (receiver or giver), but there may come a time when waving a copy of our Constitution in the face of the enemy doesn't stop them. So I guess I'm not a subscriber to absolute adherence to no torture. In critical situations, I expect those charged with protecting us to develop the information necessary to keep us safe. I don't believe the John Kerrys nor the Joe Bidens of the world can diplomatically resolve the philosophy expressed by many of our current international enemies. In a similar vein, it appears to me that POTUS is not a devotee of absolute adherence to his oath to the Constitution in terms of manipulating and changing laws passed by Congress (See the ACA), nor his authority limits with regard to his recent action on stopping deportation of illegal immigrants. These actions, absent an imminent threat to the nation, appear both ignorant and arrogant in nature. Like you, in today's relatively peaceful world, I abhor torture of any human being; unlike you, the point where I'd support crossing the line comes much sooner than yours does. But make no mistake, there is a point where you would/will cross that line. You either don't know it yet, or you're too sensitive to admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I wonder what Scooter Libby thinks about all this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 But drone strikes by our beloved president, which kill people, are okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Which one actually affects the average American on a daily basis? The President is basically wiping his ass with the Constitution and your response is "meh" because you and the rest of the liberals don't understand consequence. You're also making a strawman argument because I've said nothing about the torture aspect, only the idiot Democrat leaders who just made your world a lot less safe and endangered every military person and first responder's life by at least a factor because all they care about is politics. You are a nearly perfect drone. Once again, you're only for "following the law" when it suits your politics. I'm sure the next step for Democratic leadership is a full DOJ investigation complete with charges/convictions for those who broke the law because that will be a positive step towards keeping this kind of behavior in check. That'll happen, right? no, everyone became less safe when the cia engaged in government sanctioned torture. you think that those that were tortured (or their compatriots) were unaware of this before this disclosure? the only people unaware were those who chose to ignore the evidence. the report only provides the gruesome details and confirmation for those that wouldn't publicly admit what happened. and why exactly wouldn't they publicl;y admit it if it is defensible by arguments like yours? i would argue the most harm to the safety of the world comes from pols and regular people who, when confronted with the facts of torture at us hands, defend it and show no regret. that's the real measure of depravity. But drone strikes by our beloved president, which kill people, are okay? no, they aren't. what evidence supports that conclusion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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