Crazy Onside Kick Question - - Would This Be Doable And Legal?

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Our lame onside kick attempt at the end of the Broncos game got me thinking - - what could we do to improve our chances of recovering an expected onside kick (besides kicking it more than 10 yards)? OK, this is probably nuts, but how about this?

 

Seems like a kicker with elite leg talent could set the ball on the tee with as much backwards lean as possible, then very slowly sweep his foot under the bottom of the ball so that at first the ball rolled back onto his instep as his foot slowly rises. After he has the ball resting on his foot, the kicker increases his leg speed just enough to push it over the heads of the waiting hands team. With practice, the kicker should be able to do this in one continuous but variable speed motion, so that he doesn't contact the ball twice (not sure if double contact would be a rule violation).

 

Would have to find a spot behind the first row of receivers where the ball could bounce before a receiver got to it, because a well-coached receiver would call for a fair catch. But if the kicker could find an open spot for the ball to land, we'd have a shot. Our guys could even try to catch it in the air as long as no receiver called for a fair catch.

 

Seems like it would be easier to do this with a straight ahead leg motion like a punter uses (not a sidewinder soccer style kick).

 

Our other 10 guys would have to delay their run for a beat to make sure they didn't cross the starting line before the ball actually left the kicker's foot.

 

The initial slow leg rise would be a dead giveaway of what was coming, but only after somebody in the league had tried this before - - I don't think it would be a giveaway the first time it was tried.

 

Questions:

 

1. Is the variable speed, single contact "push" kick that I've described legal?

 

2. Do you think it could work?

 

3. Is the kickoff required to start from the middle of the field by some rule, or is that merely customary - - could we "push" kick the ball from an off-center tee somewhat closer to one side of the field, into what I'm guessing would be more open space closer to the other sideline?

 

4. Is my assumption correct, that our 10 guys would be offsides if they crossed the starting line a split second after the kicker first touched the ball but BEFORE he "pushed" it off his foot? If not, that opens up additional possibilities. If the kicker could balance the ball with a slowly rising foot for even half a second, our 10 guys could cover part of the necessary 10 yards, and be that much closer to taking out the other team's receivers. Receiver has to judge flight of the ball for a bit before calling for a fair catch, and maybe we put at least a few front line guys on their backs before they can assess the situation and call for the fair catch. Hard for a guy to call for a fair catch if he's on his back.

[fansince88]

That seems too hard. Why not a line drive kick to the legs of the receiver. If you can kick the ball 90 yards then 10 yds are going to be flying fast and hard.

[bowery4]

So this is what you do at night instead of sleeping? Why don't you just ask Darrell, he knows about law, maybe he is up on NFL rules too. BTW there was someone who did a wierd soccer type kick a couple weeks ago one leg kicks the ball out behind the other. ahh heres the vid except it doesn't play. http://www.nflrush.com/story/dolphins-attempt-soccer-style-onside-kick

[PromoTheRobot]

That kick by Gay was the exact play run by Steve Cristie in the Houston comeback game. The idea is for the kicker to cover his own kick with a blocker at his side to clear the area. Obviously Gay didn't hit it with the right velocity. The ball is supposed to keep pace with the kicker.

Edited December 9, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[Dorkington]

If Gay hit that kick just slightly harder, he had a good chance of recovering it... I have no problem with that play design.

[zonabb]

I was thinking about this yesterday too... and was wondering 1) do they have to use a tee and 2) can they use a holder whenever they want? The example above is interesting but my idea was based on golf.... can't there be a way the kicker could essentially kick an 11-year flop shot? Kick the ball up in the air and basically make it a jump ball? If they must use a tee, I wonder if kicking the tee out from under it, making the tee the "divot" would produce that kick? Probably been tried but it seems like a jump ball is a better option to get your hands on the ball before at the same time as the receiving team than kicking it to someone 10 yards away who is waiting for it to hit them.

[eball]

I'd like to see a team try driving the ball low and hard, directly at the first line of returners. It's a crap shoot anyway, and once the ball bounces off one of their guys the kicking team should have a fair chance of recovering it.

 

I don't have a specific issue with the type of kick the Bills tried, but Gay simply didn't execute it.

 

The "hit the top of the ball so it bounces high" method of onside kicking is, to me, the one with the least likelihood of success -- but perhaps it is used most frequently because it can at least be practiced consistently.

[KD in CA]

I haven't seen the up the middle try work in a long time. Receiving teams are pretty good at covering that now.

 

The high bounce on the 2d hit is still the best bet IMO. You just don't want it to go too deep so there are a bunch of players in the scrum when the balls comes down.

[PolishDave]

Our lame onside kick attempt at the end of the Broncos game got me thinking - - what could we do to improve our chances of recovering an expected onside kick (besides kicking it more than 10 yards)? OK, this is probably nuts, but how about this?

 

Fire Crossman!

 

I'd like to see a team try driving the ball low and hard, directly at the first line of returners. It's a crap shoot anyway, and once the ball bounces off one of their guys the kicking team should have a fair chance of recovering it.

This^^

 

And it would be wicked fun to watch the ball bean somebody in the head and bounce back 20 yards.

[Maddog69]

I'd like to see a team try driving the ball low and hard, directly at the first line of returners. It's a crap shoot anyway, and once the ball bounces off one of their guys the kicking team should have a fair chance of recovering it.

 

I don't have a specific issue with the type of kick the Bills tried, but Gay simply didn't execute it.

 

The "hit the top of the ball so it bounces high" method of onside kicking is, to me, the one with the least likelihood of success -- but perhaps it is used most frequently because it can at least be practiced consistently.

This is kind of similar to what I was thinking. Why not have the kicker blast the ball as hard as he can directly at one of the defenders. A fast, hard, line-drive would be difficult to catch. The ball would presumably bounce off of the defender and be free for recovery by us. This play seems to make sense in my head but no one ever has tried it as far as I know.

The obvious drawback is having the accuracy to actually hit the defender.

[K-9]

This is kind of similar to what I was thinking. Why not have the kicker blast the ball as hard as he can directly at one of the defenders. A fast, hard, line-drive would be difficult to catch. The ball would presumably bounce off of the defender and be free for recovery by us. This play seems to make sense in my head but no one ever has tried it as far as I know.

The obvious drawback is having the accuracy to actually hit the defender.

 

Something tells me it's very difficult; low percentage at best. You miss the guy, there goes any opportunity. And it's only a 14% proposition to begin with.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[PolishDave]

Something tells me it's very difficult; low percentage at best. You miss the guy, there goes any opportunity. And it's only a 14% proposition to begin with.

 

How can you miss the guy? The guys up front are all going to be diving at the ball trying to get it. The likelihood is that the closest guy gets a hand on it. Instead of just being able to fall on the ball though, he will have to try to catch it at a wicked high rate of speed at a weird angle. I can't believe teams don't try this.

 

That's it. There is our secret weapon against the Packers. All we have to do now is find a way to put ourselves in a situation where we need to onsides kick in the fourth quarter. How are we ever going to do that?

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

I don't understand the surprise of the fake kick/resting the ball on the inseam. I don't think I am visualizing it correctly.

[Jauronimo]

Our lame onside kick attempt at the end of the Broncos game got me thinking - - what could we do to improve our chances of recovering an expected onside kick (besides kicking it more than 10 yards)? OK, this is probably nuts, but how about this?

 

Seems like a kicker with elite leg talent could set the ball on the tee with as much backwards lean as possible, then very slowly sweep his foot under the bottom of the ball so that at first the ball rolled back onto his instep as his foot slowly rises. After he has the ball resting on his foot, the kicker increases his leg speed just enough to push it over the heads of the waiting hands team. With practice, the kicker should be able to do this in one continuous but variable speed motion, so that he doesn't contact the ball twice (not sure if double contact would be a rule violation).

 

Would have to find a spot behind the first row of receivers where the ball could bounce before a receiver got to it, because a well-coached receiver would call for a fair catch. But if the kicker could find an open spot for the ball to land, we'd have a shot. Our guys could even try to catch it in the air as long as no receiver called for a fair catch.

 

Seems like it would be easier to do this with a straight ahead leg motion like a punter uses (not a sidewinder soccer style kick).

 

Our other 10 guys would have to delay their run for a beat to make sure they didn't cross the starting line before the ball actually left the kicker's foot.

 

The initial slow leg rise would be a dead giveaway of what was coming, but only after somebody in the league had tried this before - - I don't think it would be a giveaway the first time it was tried.

 

Questions:

 

1. Is the variable speed, single contact "push" kick that I've described legal?

 

2. Do you think it could work?

 

3. Is the kickoff required to start from the middle of the field by some rule, or is that merely customary - - could we "push" kick the ball from an off-center tee somewhat closer to one side of the field, into what I'm guessing would be more open space closer to the other sideline?

 

4. Is my assumption correct, that our 10 guys would be offsides if they crossed the starting line a split second after the kicker first touched the ball but BEFORE he "pushed" it off his foot? If not, that opens up additional possibilities. If the kicker could balance the ball with a slowly rising foot for even half a second, our 10 guys could cover part of the necessary 10 yards, and be that much closer to taking out the other team's receivers. Receiver has to judge flight of the ball for a bit before calling for a fair catch, and maybe we put at least a few front line guys on their backs before they can assess the situation and call for the fair catch. Hard for a guy to call for a fair catch if he's on his back.

I've read this three times and best I can tell its a convoluted way of saying kick the ball over their heads and go get it.

[freeagentqb]

i've seen the ball kicked so that it bounces very high so that it becomes basically a jump ball. Seems like that would be a good option. A couple tall players job would be not to catch the ball but just to bat the ball to another predetermined spot.

[Mickey]

I was thinking about this yesterday too... and was wondering 1) do they have to use a tee and 2) can they use a holder whenever they want? The example above is interesting but my idea was based on golf.... can't there be a way the kicker could essentially kick an 11-year flop shot? Kick the ball up in the air and basically make it a jump ball? If they must use a tee, I wonder if kicking the tee out from under it, making the tee the "divot" would produce that kick? Probably been tried but it seems like a jump ball is a better option to get your hands on the ball before at the same time as the receiving team than kicking it to someone 10 yards away who is waiting for it to hit them.

The problem with a pop fly type of kick is that no matter how you do it, the other team is closer to the ball as it decends than you are. Going over the heads of the hands team is not so easy since the hands team are not anchored to their positions, they can simply run back instead of running forward to get the ball and they have a 10 yard head start over the kicking team. And if all that wasn't an issue, you would still the problem of trying to kick a football like that. As someone who coached soccer teams for years and played organized football, I can tell you that a pop fly football off of a kicking tee is ridiculously hard to do. Its actually called a mortar kick by some coaches and has a chance of working when the receiving team isn't expecting one. When it does work, it is usually because the guy trying to catch it is on special teams as a blocker, not for his hands, and he muffs the catch which the kicking team then recovers. I have a hard time imagining a mortar kick working against an all hands return team.

 

i've seen the ball kicked so that it bounces very high so that it becomes basically a jump ball. Seems like that would be a good option. A couple tall players job would be not to catch the ball but just to bat the ball to another predetermined spot.

I hate the jump ball onside, the other teams gets to it first 99% of the time and you only get a recovery if they screw up the catch which, because they are the hands team, they rarely do. A wicked line drive bouncer is, inmho, the best option. I am not sure what the Bills tried works anymore as I think they modified the rules so that you can't have a cluster of players behind and around the kicker any more. At one point they changed the rule so that you had to have at least four players on each side of the ball. Bobby April came up with the idea of clustering right at the ball with half your team on one side and the other half on the other side but they enacted a rule to stop that too.

[K-9]

How can you miss the guy? The guys up front are all going to be diving at the ball trying to get it. The likelihood is that the closest guy gets a hand on it. Instead of just being able to fall on the ball though, he will have to try to catch it at a wicked high rate of speed at a weird angle. I can't believe teams don't try this.

 

That's it. There is our secret weapon against the Packers. All we have to do now is find a way to put ourselves in a situation where we need to onsides kick in the fourth quarter. How are we ever going to do that?

 

Try it sometime. Stand 30 feet away from a target and kick a ball as hard as you can at it. See how many times you hit it. I'd be interested to know how you do.

 

In the meantime, send your suggestion in. Maybe they'll read it and give it a try. Never know.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Matt in KC]

The problem with this approach, and any similar jump ball techniques is that the receiving team can call for a fair catch on a kick-off. This is why so many on-sides attempts are kicked off the ground, because a fair catch doesn't apply when the ball has already hit the ground. Having the ball hit the ground and pop up for a jump ball is the best of both worlds, but is difficult to do consistently.

[dollars 2 donuts]

If I am understanding you correctly the ball never touches the ground through the kicker"s motion and floats in the air. If that is the case and it is placed between the rows (hands team, etc.) can't someone just run up and signal fair catch keeping our onside team momentarily at bay?

 

That's why they bounce it first and not just raise it, because the receiving team can call a fair catch.

 

If I interpreted the OP's post wrong, my apologies.

 

EDIT: Seconds,Matt in KC...you beat me to it by seconds!

 

Edited December 9, 2014 by dollars 2 donuts

[Matt in KC]

Unless you have a kicker than can hit the skip-and-pop-up kick consistently, I personally favor the line drive approach, bouncing off a defender. The danger is of course missing them, or having them doge it and having it go far downfield or out of bounds.

 

It would be great to be able to hit it hard and create a 20-25 yard downfield pop-up to let your speed guys get there by the time it falls into reach.