The Big Cat Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 So Marrone couldn't get it to work with Williams at Cuse, so he traded a pick for him? And now, it didn't work again? Marrone is a genius. Oh, please. The trade was universally touted virtually no risk with exceptionally high potential for reward. We traded a damn sixth round pick and still managed to get more for it than we probably would have. 2014 was not a good year for Whaley. Trading the future for a WR in a deeeeep WR draft. Trading for Williams. Trading for Brown. No real developmental option to EJ. I guarantee you Belichick doesn't piss away $5.2 M. It's like Whaley deals with players without any plan in building the team and stacking with proper depth. Um, three day-one starters in the draft. Brandon Spikes And another double digit sack year from a guy we aquired in a trade for a half-empty bag of peanuts Not to mention big play production from Corey Graham And stability in the backfield that--at the very least--kept the ship upright after Spiller and Jackson went down in the same game I'd say it was a pretty good year for Whaley. Way more positives than negatives.
The Frankish Reich Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 I'm no conspiracy theorist, and like the rest of us I have no inside information, but ... sometimes it's just obvious. The GM and Marrone are not on the same page. Williams is Exhibit 1. But then look at Bryce Brown, acquired by Whaley to be insurance in case of a CJ injury. CJ goes down, and Bryce Brown gets a total of 32 carries in 6 games. You don't trade even a 4th round pick for a guy who's going to be that minor of a player. And of course you don't commit what now looks like a total of more than $10 million to a wide receiver who gets a total of 19 balls thrown his way before he's put on injured reserve with a fake injury (don't tell me it's just a coincidence that the mysterious "calf injury" appeared right after the not-so-mysterious weed smoking instagram). The Bills are once again leading the league in dysfunctional management. (Or thanks to our perennial leaders in dysfunction, the Redskins, maybe we're second.) Whaley made the questionable moves, but the options for the Pegulas here are obvious, and there's only two: (1) Whaley keeps his job, fires Marrone. (2) the Pegulas fire Whaley and Marrone and start from scratch again. Marrone surviving the firing of Whaley is not a realistic scenario. Better to do it now and let Schwartz be the interim coach.
K-9 Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Oh, please. The trade was universally touted virtually no risk with exceptionally high potential for reward. We traded a damn sixth round pick and still managed to get more for it than we probably would have. Um, three day-one starters in the draft. Brandon Spikes And another double digit sack year from a guy we aquired in a trade for a half-empty bag of peanuts Not to mention big play production from Corey Graham And stability in the backfield that--at the very least--kept the ship upright after Spiller and Jackson went down in the same game I'd say it was a pretty good year for Whaley. Way more positives than negatives. Definitely more hits than misses, no doubt. And if I hear this "deep WR draft" crap one more time, I'll rip my hair out. I applaud Whaley for having the conviction to get one of the highest rated players, regardless of position, in the draft in years. NONE of the receivers taken after him have the complete tool set that Watkins does. Talk to me when all their careers are over. In the meantime, stop with this hotpocket reaction every time another rookie receiver makes a play or has a good day. GO BILLS!!!
Wayne Cubed Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 2014 was not a good year for Whaley. Trading the future for a WR in a deeeeep WR draft. Trading for Williams. Trading for Brown. No real developmental option to EJ. I guarantee you Belichick doesn't piss away $5.2 M. It's like Whaley deals with players without any plan in building the team and stacking with proper depth. Yea the Patriots never piss away money or draft picks. Btw Albert Haynesworth, Chad OchoCinco Johnson and Tim Tebow say hello.
Cleveland Rocks? Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Is this Mike Williams your new Da'Rick?
The Big Cat Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Definitely more hits than misses, no doubt. And if I hear this "deep WR draft" crap one more time, I'll rip my hair out. I applaud Whaley for having the conviction to get one of the highest rated players, regardless of position, in the draft in years. NONE of the receivers taken after him have the complete tool set that Watkins does. Talk to me when all their careers are over. In the meantime, stop with this hotpocket reaction every time another rookie receiver makes a play or has a good day. GO BILLS!!! Odell Beckham (4-9) | NYG wins through 14 wks: -1 compared to 2013 Mike Evans (2-11) | TB wins through 14 wks: -2 compared to 2013 Kelvin Benjamin (4-8-1) | CAR wins through 14 wks: -5 compared to 2013 Those guys are having a major impact on their teams, alright.
K-9 Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Is this Mike Williams your new Da'Rick? Now THIS made me laugh! Great stuff, CR. At least MW could run the proper routes and our QB didn't have to worry about a wrong route bringing coverage into the area of the intended receiver all the time. TheRick was good at that. GO BILLS!!!
GG Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Owing explanations to Whaley vs. the Pegula's consultant are two different animals. EVERYBODY will have to report. Rivers is no mystery. He was outplayed in preseason and lost his job to better players. He's a complete non-issue. I'm not following you on the serious issues on offense. Other than we aren't very good on that side of the ball, of course. Whaley certainly attempted to address the Oline and Marrone certainly tried to plug in all of Whaley's additions at some point. People can question Marrone's use of Urbik, but that's his decision, as much as anyone disagrees with it. There's the MW issue too, but as I've said, I think Whaley respects that it's Marrone's roster to manage as he sees fit and I don't think he isn't fully aware of what happened there. From a personnel standpoint, I don't see a problem with communication. From a schematic standpoint, in game management standpoint yeah, I think Whaley will want a complete debriefing after the season. GO BILLS!!! Rivers being a non issue is either a testament to Whaley's or coaches' ability to get very good play out of rookies and emergence of Bradham. All the more so since the Bills lost Kiko and Branch flaked out. Add in the remarkable turnaround for Dareus, given the issues that plagued him in the summer, and you have to scratch your head why the defensive unit was able to get it together, while the offense stinks. Maybe the story will come out eventually, but it would be interesting to know if MW's actions were similar to Marcel's or Hughes' in the summer. Yet the latter are huge contributors on game day despite what happened in the summer. If it were isolated incidents on offense, fine. But someone has to notice that there were serious questions about players on defense in the summer, and all of them are in the rear view mirror. Not so much on offense.
Wayne Cubed Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Rivers being a non issue is either a testament to Whaley's or coaches' ability to get very good play out of rookies and emergence of Bradham. All the more so since the Bills lost Kiko and Branch flaked out. Add in the remarkable turnaround for Dareus, given the issues that plagued him in the summer, and you have to scratch your head why the defensive unit was able to get it together, while the offense stinks. Maybe the story will come out eventually, but it would be interesting to know if MW's actions were similar to Marcel's or Hughes' in the summer. Yet the latter are huge contributors on game day despite what happened in the summer. If it were isolated incidents on offense, fine. But someone has to notice that there were serious questions about players on defense in the summer, and all of them are in the rear view mirror. Not so much on offense. Mike Williams had a pretty significant hamstring tear in 2013, I'm wondering if that all played a factor. Has he slowed down? Has he lost some of that jumping ability?
papazoid Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 some of Whaley's misses: #1- QB situation - stayed ALL-IN with EJ, Thad & Tuel. brought in Orton so late missed all of camp and preseason. #2- wiffed on kevin kolb #3- Traded away next years #1 draft pick. mortgaged the future. #4- Traded away Stevie Johnson yet carry $10 million in salary cap DEAD MONEY. #5- replaced the 70th ranked LG with the 65th ranked LG. (chris Williams) #6- stood pat at TE by resigning a mediocre receiving TE Chandler who can't block. #7- got totally played by Jairus Byrd's agent. lost your only ALL-Pro player for nothing in return. #8- questionable 2nd round 2014 pick. #9- Coaching - team undisciplined as evidenced by penalties. poor clock and timeout management. #10- wiffed on Mike Williams. $1.8 mil in 2014 & $5.2 mil in DEAD MONEY for 2015.
The Big Cat Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 some of Whaley's misses: #1- QB situation - stayed ALL-IN with EJ, Thad & Tuel. brought in Orton so late missed all of camp and preseason. #2- wiffed on kevin kolb #3- Traded away next years #1 draft pick. mortgaged the future. #4- Traded away Stevie Johnson yet carry $10 million in salary cap DEAD MONEY. #5- replaced the 70th ranked LG with the 65th ranked LG. (chris Williams) #6- stood pat at TE by resigning a mediocre receiving TE Chandler who can't block. #7- got totally played by Jairus Byrd's agent. lost your only ALL-Pro player for nothing in return. #8- questionable 2nd round 2014 pick. #9- Coaching - team undisciplined as evidenced by penalties. poor clock and timeout management. #10- wiffed on Mike Williams. $1.8 mil in 2014 & $5.2 mil in DEAD MONEY for 2015. I'll just got ahead and assume the vast majority of these are meant to be dripping with sarcasm.
Dopey Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 i believe at the time of trade he was labeled "1a" Ok. Still, the point is we traded only a 6th rd pick for him. Tampa let him go. Tampa! If he did average 8td's a season as some have argued , why would Tampa let him go for a 6th rd pick? There's something else going on with him. We gave it a shot. It didn't work out. Over 200 posts for this topic is ridiculous. He's not a game changer and probably not worth the hassle. IMO.
K-9 Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Rivers being a non issue is either a testament to Whaley's or coaches' ability to get very good play out of rookies and emergence of Bradham. All the more so since the Bills lost Kiko and Branch flaked out. Add in the remarkable turnaround for Dareus, given the issues that plagued him in the summer, and you have to scratch your head why the defensive unit was able to get it together, while the offense stinks. Maybe the story will come out eventually, but it would be interesting to know if MW's actions were similar to Marcel's or Hughes' in the summer. Yet the latter are huge contributors on game day despite what happened in the summer. If it were isolated incidents on offense, fine. But someone has to notice that there were serious questions about players on defense in the summer, and all of them are in the rear view mirror. Not so much on offense. I think you hit on why in an earlier post when you mentioned the defensive performance. It's a more talented group to begin with but they've matured a bit, too. Especially Dareus who I understand appreciated Marrone and the rest of the staff having his back over the summer. The building became a sanctuary of sorts for him after his drag race, etc. If the offense were performing at the same level, none of the player issues we've been discussing would be there. And the offensive performance can be pinned to the lack of QB play more than any other issue. I'd be shocked if Whaley, Marrone, and everybody else in the building aren't in complete agreement on that score. Not to digress, but on the Bradham thing, all the credit has to go to him. He was in danger of getting cut if he didn't get with it. They told him that at the end of last season, before Pettine left, etc. He was put on notice and he responded by totally immersing himself in the process of becoming a good player. Film study, training, diet, all of it. He became a fixture in the building. GO BILLS!!! Mike Williams had a pretty significant hamstring tear in 2013, I'm wondering if that all played a factor. Has he slowed down? Has he lost some of that jumping ability? I've wondered that, too. He started out very slowly at camp and I'm convinced he wasn't 100% healthy. I think we'll learn more going forward. GO BILLS!!!
Mango Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 some of Whaley's misses: #1- QB situation - stayed ALL-IN with EJ, Thad & Tuel. brought in Orton so late missed all of camp and preseason. #2- wiffed on kevin kolb #3- Traded away next years #1 draft pick. mortgaged the future. #4- Traded away Stevie Johnson yet carry $10 million in salary cap DEAD MONEY. #5- replaced the 70th ranked LG with the 65th ranked LG. (chris Williams) #6- stood pat at TE by resigning a mediocre receiving TE Chandler who can't block. #7- got totally played by Jairus Byrd's agent. lost your only ALL-Pro player for nothing in return. #8- questionable 2nd round 2014 pick. #9- Coaching - team undisciplined as evidenced by penalties. poor clock and timeout management. #10- wiffed on Mike Williams. $1.8 mil in 2014 & $5.2 mil in DEAD MONEY for 2015. I'll disgree on a few things. Byrd, our safety play this year has been pretty good. Nobody has mentioned once this year that they miss him. His contract wasn't worth it. We got more out of spreading his contract around than he ever would have added to this D. Chandler gets the short end I think. He really isn't that bad. Yes some drops, and no not a marquee TE, but the dude is probably top half at his position. I don't think we are utilizing our TE's well. Doesn't mean I think Gragg and Smith are operating at submaximal. Dropping Chandler is a mistake. I'd classify him as a good pass catching TE. Not sure we whiffed on Kolb so much as Kolb whiffed on himself. We aren't sure of MW's cap penalty yet. At least I haven't seen anything concrete. A lot of reputable sources reporting contradicting things. If it counts against us, I assume we are just Doing him a favor. It was reported quite a bit that Orton didn't want to be at camp. Can't get a player in if he won't sign his contract. Granted that points to your overall concern with the managing of QB, which I get.
The Big Cat Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 some of Whaley's misses: #1- QB situation - stayed ALL-IN with EJ, Thad & Tuel. brought in Orton so late missed all of camp and preseason. The timing of the Orton thing can't really be blamed on anyone, IMO. He was threatening to retire, it's not like he was actively looking for a job. Going into to training camp with last year's QB's, in hind sight, was not a good plan. But, unless you've got a QB tree in your backyard, it can't be considered a "Whaley miss" unless there was an opportunity to get one and we missed on it. And honestly, you can't make this argument, nobody can. Because we can't know for certain that he wasn't trying to orchestrate a trade for one. So, based on QB availability, signing Orton--when they did--was the best possible solution. Unless you care to assert otherwise. #2- wiffed on kevin kolb Hardly. The guy got injured. Kolb didn't come in and stink. He never even had the opportunity. #3- Traded away next years #1 draft pick. mortgaged the future. The impact of this cannot be measured yet. You can go ahead and assume the worst (fitting), but nobody can make an honest evaluation of this. Note: I didn't say it has worked out. #4- Traded away Stevie Johnson yet carry $10 million in salary cap DEAD MONEY. That would/should have been spent on? It's not your money. Who cares? The Stevie Johnson thing has been laid to rest. #5- replaced the 70th ranked LG with the 65th ranked LG. (chris Williams) So...a move that was--at worst--lateral was...a miss? #6- stood pat at TE by resigning a mediocre receiving TE Chandler who can't block. Sure. #7- got totally played by Jairus Byrd's agent. lost your only ALL-Pro player for nothing in return. This one is ludicrous. Byrd hasn't played since WEEK FOUR. His sudden back surgery in the offseason seemed to take everyone by surprise. Plus, as Mango pointed out, has he really been missed? His best quality was his ability to ball hawk...yet we're still tops in the league in picks...so... #8- questionable 2nd round 2014 pick. Fair enough. Thus far, the Kounjo (sic) pick hasn't worked out. But who cares? The drafting of Henderson in the SEVENTH ROUND more than offsets the loss of a second rounder. #9- Coaching - team undisciplined as evidenced by penalties. poor clock and timeout management. Now you're stretching. I'm not refuting your points, but to blame this on the GM is stupid. #10- wiffed on Mike Williams. $1.8 mil in 2014 & $5.2 mil in DEAD MONEY for 2015. Have we figured out the "dead money" thing yet? And again...who cares? Not your money. What will 5.2 prevent this team from doing? **What happens today when Williams clears waivers? Are the Bills still a disaster for letting him go? I'm guess so. Just wanted to check.
OldNMBillsFan Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Mike Williams contract according to espn http://espn.go.com/blog/buffalo-bills/post/_/id/8700/breaking-down-mike-williams-contract
boyst Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Did Whaley really miss on QB's? Manuel was not his choice and there were no real options at QB this past year... Mike Williams contract according to espn http://espn.go.com/b...lliams-contract good lord that is a backloaded contract if i've ever seen one. i'd never sign one of those if i was a player. they're only ever bad news.
NoSaint Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 good lord that is a backloaded contract if i've ever seen one. i'd never sign one of those if i was a player. they're only ever bad news. it looks worse without year 1 on the chart. it just starts up at the random discount in year 2. but this is why we should expect him to clear waivers this week.
A Dog Named Kelso Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Ok. Still, the point is we traded only a 6th rd pick for him. Tampa let him go. Tampa! If he did average 8td's a season as some have argued , why would Tampa let him go for a 6th rd pick? There's something else going on with him. We gave it a shot. It didn't work out. Over 200 posts for this topic is ridiculous. He's not a game changer and probably not worth the hassle. IMO. This may very well be the most reasonable explanation, but I wonder if Whaley and Marrone were informed about what those were before the trade. It is not that he was benched as much as the "non" reason. In a vacuum one could guess there were issues, but unlike what has been stated there were no real reports as to what the cause of the rift was. Marrone has a history of being stubborn and petty so, people going siding with William's is hardly out of line. I think if there was any sort of reports as to what the rift was for the initial benching people might get in line with what has occurred since. But he has been a healthy scratch since the Detroit game for the most part.
NoSaint Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 This may very well be the most reasonable explanation, but I wonder if Whaley and Marrone were informed about what those were before the trade. It is not that he was benched as much as the "non" reason. In a vacuum one could guess there were issues, but unlike what has been stated there were no real reports as to what the cause of the rift was. Marrone has a history of being stubborn and petty so, people going siding with William's is hardly out of line. I think if there was any sort of reports as to what the rift was for the initial benching people might get in line with what has occurred since. But he has been a healthy scratch since the Detroit game for the most part. the thing is - marrone knew he was a pain. he was a pain for him in syracuse. was a pain in tampa bay and why the new regime was willing to deal him -- you dont make this move expecting him not to have some baggage. especially coming home to buffalo where there will be mixed influences at best. so unless it was a colossal pain that we didnt hear about, i feel like you know what you are getting and should play him
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