Just because we're paranoid - Another suspicious call

[BUFFALOTONE]

Oh yea? And how would you prove someone wasn't or was running a route?

 

So, you are wrong. In fact most pick plays occur when to receivers run crossing routes. Unless of course you believe they break the huddle and tell one receiver to run a route and the other one to just "run around" and hope you run into someone.

 

When you intentionally impede the defender instead of running a route, that is why it is hardly called.

[Wayne Cubed]

 

 

When you intentionally impede the defender instead of running a route, that is why it is hardly called.

 

I understand it isn't called a lot. As far as if Watkins intentionally ran into Talib, look at the formation and the play design. it's a bunch formation with Woods, Watkins and Hogan. Woods runs a fly route. Hogan runs a little swing route and Watkins runs an out and up. The reason its an intentional pick is because both Hogan and Watkins routes are going in the same direction initialally. Hogans defender is playing off but still trailing him. Watkins route takes him first out towards the sideline and then it is stretched vertically. When he stretches it, he is interfering with the defender trying to cover Hogan because his route is taking him directly into the defender. It's not different form when they run 2 crossing routes and the one players route takes him into the trailing defender of another player.

 

It's a pick. A clever one. But it's still a pick.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Wayne Cubed

[GG]

My initial thought was that it was a pick by Watkins. Upon further review, it wasn't. Watkins was running his route and it was more of Talib running into him. Watkins was running to the side of Talib not directly at him. Talib reacted too late to the pattern and in the process ran into Watkins.

 

BTW, for all the talk about Watkins' lack of toughness - Aqib Talib bounced off of him like a rag doll.

[Wayne Cubed]

My initial thought was that it was a pick by Watkins. Upon further review, it wasn't. Watkins was running his route and it was more of Talib running into him. Watkins was running to the side of Talib not directly at him. Talib reacted too late to the pattern and in the process ran into Watkins.

 

BTW, for all the talk about Watkins' lack of toughness - Aqib Talib bounced off of him like a rag doll.

 

Thats how all picks work though. The defender who is trailing a receiver runs into another receiver who's route is designed to take him into the path of that defender.

 

That's exactly what happened. At the very least it's illegal contact on the offense.

 

[Haplo848]

I'm sorry that was clearly a pick by Watkins. The ball was in the air going towards Hogan not Watkins, so no way pass interference. Talib broke towards Hogan, Sammy "accidentally" ran in front of his path to Hogan while the ball was in the air.

 

That's a pick.

 

You're an idiot. Sammy was just running his route and never even saw the ball was in the air. He made no effort to run into Talib, and it was Talib that ran into him. Watch it again, you'll see. If anything gets called, that's defensive pass interference, but for once in that game the refs actually made the right call. Incidental contact, like when feet get tangled up. No call.

[GG]

Thats how all picks work though. The defender who is trailing a receiver runs into another receiver who's route is designed to take him into the path of that defender.

 

That's exactly what happened. At the very least it's illegal contact on the offense.

 

This was more of a case of blown coverage. Talib was marking Watkins, but when he realized that Hogan was going outside ran towards him and right into Watkins. It wasn't a pick.

 

Have to credit Hackett for a brilliant play call

[Wayne Cubed]

 

 

You're an idiot. Sammy was just running his route and never even saw the ball was in the air. He made no effort to run into Talib, and it was Talib that ran into him. Watch it again, you'll see. If anything gets called, that's defensive pass interference, but for once in that game the refs actually made the right call. Incidental contact, like when feet get tangled up. No call.

 

Wow ok, name calling.

 

I've watched it numerous times, thanks. It's a pick.

 

 

 

This was more of a case of blown coverage. Talib was marking Watkins, but when he realized that Hogan was going outside ran towards him and right into Watkins. It wasn't a pick.

 

Have to credit Hackett for a brilliant play call

 

Idk from the snap it looks like Talib is marking Hogan.

 

Anyways apparently I'm an idiot so ill end it here.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Wayne Cubed

[Haplo848]

Thats how all picks work though. The defender who is trailing a receiver runs into another receiver who's route is designed to take him into the path of that defender.

 

That's exactly what happened. At the very least it's illegal contact on the offense.

 

Thre is a difference between a legal and an illegal pick. Here's an illustration of it:

 

If a receiver runs down field and blocks a receiver, that is an illegal pick, and the receiver will get flagged for illegal contact or pass interference.

 

If a receiver runs down field and his route takes him into the path of a defender, then the defender has to go around him. That is a completely legal play.

 

If you have the second scenario, and instead of going around the receiver, the defender tries to go through him instead of around him, that's defensive pass interference. If the receiver does not try to block the DB, the receiver should never be flagged on that type of play (I say SHOULD instead of WILL because we all remember the Sammy Watkins offensive PI call against the Patriots* where Sammy tries to run his route, gets run into by Woods' defender, gets jacked up, and an obviously wrong offensive PI call was made against him).

 

Another example is any time you see two receivers run crossing routes coming from opposite sides of the field. You have a smaller guy run the inside route, the bigger guy run the route about 6 inches further down the field. If the smaller guy's defender is downfield at all, he has to go around the bigger guy (allowing the smaller guy to get open) or he can run into the bigger guy and draw a defensive PI call. Those are his options.

 

TL:DR - not all pick plays are illegal. In fact, most aren't, and offensive coordinators make use of them all the time.

[Wayne Cubed]

Thre is a difference between a legal and an illegal pick. Here's an illustration of it:

 

If a receiver runs down field and blocks a receiver, that is an illegal pick, and the receiver will get flagged for illegal contact or pass interference.

 

If a receiver runs down field and his route takes him into the path of a defender, then the defender has to go around him. That is a completely legal play.

 

If you have the second scenario, and instead of going around the receiver, the defender tries to go through him instead of around him, that's defensive pass interference. If the receiver does not try to block the DB, the receiver should never be flagged on that type of play (I say SHOULD instead of WILL because we all remember the Sammy Watkins offensive PI call against the Patriots* where Sammy tries to run his route, gets run into by Woods' defender, gets jacked up, and an obviously wrong offensive PI call was made against him).

 

Another example is any time you see two receivers run crossing routes coming from opposite sides of the field. You have a smaller guy run the inside route, the bigger guy run the route about 6 inches further down the field. If the smaller guy's defender is downfield at all, he has to go around the bigger guy (allowing the smaller guy to get open) or he can run into the bigger guy and draw a defensive PI call. Those are his options.

 

TL:DR - not all pick plays are illegal. In fact, most aren't, and offensive coordinators make use of them all the time.

 

I know what a pick is, thanks. Could have saved some time not writing this. Your examples are horrible. It has nothing to with running down the field and making contact. ANY contact after 1 yard initiated by an offensive player is considered illegal. A pick is a judgment call. Was there intent to impede a defensive player? In this case I think the play is designed to do just that.

 

Here's another illegal pick:

 

 

But but but Welkers route was just taking him into the defender.

 

And I quote:

 

"There are two very important points to keep in mind when talking about legal versus illegal picks: within one yard of the line of scrimmage, anything goes you can block the defender as much as you want and it doesn't matter if the ball is in the air or not; but beyond that one-yard buffer it is illegal for an offensive player to initiate contact with a defender.

 

Beyond the one-yard zone, offensive pass interference is in effect from the moment the ball is snapped until the receiver catches the ball (or until a defensive player touches the ball). It’s different than defensive pass interference, which can only happen when the ball is in flight. So, on one of the Broncos’ favorite plays, Decker can’t block Talib on a screen pass to Thomas beyond the 1-yard zone until Thomas catches the ball."

 

I'm gonna shut up after this.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Wayne Cubed

[GG]

I know what a pick is, thanks. Could have save some time not writing this.

 

 

But but but Welkers route was taking him into the defender.

 

That wasn't the route that Watkins took. The above is a clear pick.

 

The slot guy was shadowing Hogan's motion, Talib started to back pedal to stay with Watkins, but then realized that the pass was going to Hogan, stopped and ran forward right into Watkins path. Nothing close resembling the above.

Edited December 9, 2014 by GG

[Haplo848]

That wasn't the route that Watkins took. The above is a clear pick.

 

And to be perfectly honest, the block is close enough to when the ball gets there that the ref could have thought it was a block after the ball arrived (which is not a penalty). I don't know if that play was called or not, and it should have been, but with how close together they are at full speed, its possible the refs just thought it was too close to call if it wasn't called.

[Wayne Cubed]

That wasn't the route that Watkins took. The above is a clear pick.

 

The slot guy was shadowing Hogan's motion, Talib started to back pedal to stay with Watkins, but then realized that the pass was going to Hogan, stopped and ran forward right into Watkins path. Nothing close resembling the above.

 

The route doesn't matter. What slot guy are you talking about? Talilb never back pedals to stay with Watkins, he is on Hogan the entire time, there is no back pedalling. He's on the 10 pre snap and on the 8 when Kyle begins to throw, I wouldn't exactly call that back pedalling. He took 2/3 shuffle steps back. Then breaks towards Hogan. So because he wasn't going at full speed towards Hogan, it's not the same? Talib is following Hogan, he recognizes the play early and breaks towards him, the ball is in the air when contact is made, my contention is that is the design of the play. The ball is out of Orton's hands in a matter of seconds. The ball is never intended to go to Sammy otherwise he would avoid the contact to not disrupt his route. He could clearly see Talib.

 

Like I said, clever play, but IMO it's a pick.

 

 

Look at the screen shot. Orton hasn't released the ball yet. Talib is following Hogan and the deeper Bronco player is on Watkins.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Wayne Cubed

[GG]

The route doesn't matter. What slot guy are you talking about? Talilb never back pedals to stay with Watkins, he is on Hogan the entire time, there is no back pedalling. He's on the 10 pre snap and on the 8 when Kyle begins to throw, I wouldn't exactly call that back pedalling. He took 2/3 shuffle steps back. Then breaks towards Hogan. So because he wasn't going at full speed towards Hogan, it's not the same?

 

 

Look at the screen shot. Orton hasn't released the ball yet. Talib is following Hogan and the deeper Bronco player is on Watkins.

 

And if Watkins was just "running his route" wouldn't he want to avoid contact with Talib?

 

At the snap, Talib has Watkins and the slot CB tracks Hogan. They recognize that they need to switch coverage, but Talib cheats by still staying with Watkins for a split second. By the time he realizes that the ball is going to Hogan, he's stuck right in Watkins path. If Talib had a better read on the play he would have been a step closer to his left and it would have been a better argument for the OPI. But because he didn't take Hogan seriously, he took himself out of the play and he was the one running into Watkins.

[Hazed and Amuzed]

Who the hell cares, jesus. Talk about arguing over something that means nothing. I hope it was a pick, I hope the Bills do whatever it takes to win ball games.