Step away from the ledge

[Rivermont Mike]

I just don't get it. I'm so sick of the whining and crying and nitpicking every little thing.

...

Get over yourself and stop trying to fit every teeny situation to your already determined narrative. I feel like I'm not watching the same games as other people. This team is the most competitive team I have seen in a long while and we should blow it up?

With all due respect to a lot of other posters whose contributions I enjoy, you are now my second-favorite contributor on TSW. My favorite is the guy who does the "A few thoughts about the game in no particular order" posts. Those are excellent.

 

That said, I appreciate that you walked through this team point-by-point and highlighted the positive. I don't believe in moral victories or any of that crap, but there are positive indicators on which the 2014 Bills can build. There are serious needs, to be sure, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

Thanks, Section 122. I was having a pretty lousy post-Sunday Monday, and your post helped a lot.

[dubs]

Here's a telling stat for me.

 

Right now, the bills record against teams with:

Better record: 1 - 3

Same record: 2 - 3

Worse record: 4 - 0

 

Last year we were 1-5 against teams with winning records.

 

It's likely that after Marrones first two years are up, the Bills will only have 2 wins against teams with winning records in about 14 games. (Assumes we lose to the Pats again, the Packers, and neither the Browns or the Dolphins end the season with a winning record)

Edited December 8, 2014 by dubs

[thebandit27]

I think Promo had a great thread about the absolute lack of options at the QB position recently. Alex Smith was really the only name that anyone could come up with that was available since Marrone/Whaley have taken over and even he is nothing to get excited about.

 

I'm acutely aware of the options that were available, and I fully respect the relative lack of great ones since Whaley was given the reins. That's the biggest reason that I believe Whaley should be retained. More than any GM we've had since Polian, he at least made attempts to get better at the games most important position.

 

He now needs to make an even greater effort to do so.

[Rivermont Mike]

Be honest with yourself. What were your preseason expectations of this team? Maybe it is because I had them pegged at 8-8 at the start of the year but I am very okay with how this year has gone. There are huge talent gaps on this team imo. Namely at the G position and QB. The success they are having despite the deficiencies tells me that these are good coaches.

This is the key question. I'll be honest, during OTAs and training camp I was drinking the Kool-Aid. I wasn't thinking playoffs, but I definitely was looking for a winning record. Then the preseason games hit, and I was praying for 8-8 and expecting 6-10 again. So, yeah, this season has been a surprise.There are gaps. Shore up the O-line and you have the option of sticking a mobile third-year QB back there or heading to free agency to pick up a veteran. Either way--with better pass protection, this offense converts more third downs and dominates the ground game. And that lets the OC and QB start opening up the passing game.

[section122]

not to mention losing your 2 starting rb's, your rookie wr sensation for spells during the season, your stud lb before the season.....

 

 

Preseason? A 9 or 10 win team based on (a) talent level, and (b) ease of schedule for the initial 12 games. It's about more than that IMO. I think the team wins a lot of games on talent and defense, which really has little to do with Marrone; Schwartz's fingerprints are all over that defense in their style of play. Marrone's in-game decisions are just so frustrating (i.e. punting the ball back to Peyton Manning when down 2 scores late in the 4th quarter). I also find it maddening that there's a pattern of players starting out productive and then waning as teams get a feel for how to game plan against them. We've seen it with EJ, Orton, Thad Lewis last year, Robert Woods, Sammy, Spiller, Goodwin, etc. Strangely enough, very little in production (offensively or defensively) has changed with any of those injuries.

 

I still think punting it back was the right move. Going for it and failing would have ended the game right then and there. By punting they gave themselves a chance to extend the game, which they did, and get it to within one score. Even if they go for it, get it, and proceed to score a td, you are still looking at the onside kick situation as it likely would have been under 3 minutes by then with no timeouts.

 

As for how easy the first 12 games were that was based on last years record. 4 games out of 12 were against teams that currently have a losing record and that includes counting the Jets twice.

 

As for the production not changing even with the injuries doesn't that speak to a great coaching job? Remember when losing a player meant the end of the year? I credit the coaches for that as that is one of the biggest signs of a successful team.

 

Did you just make these up? Of all the bad arguments on this forum, this might be the worst. Did you go back 10 years to prove your point on defense? 3 first rounders on defensive line? You are including maybin and mccargo? How about let's just stick to past 2-3 years since that is all that matters. And you forgot we spent our first rounder on a QB, and you are missing a another first on watkins.

 

3 first rounders on the dline - Mario, Dareus, Hughes

 

I believe the stat I saw is that 8 of 11 starters for the defense were drafted in the first or second round. That is a lot of resources on defense. Whether it is money for FA or actual draft picks. The offensive side (including EJ) has 5 of 11 starters from the first or second round.

 

The in game coaching decisions, coupled with the fact that we simply don't beat good teams is the nail in the coffin for me on Marrone. When you look at who we've beat, it's not pretty. Bears - bad team Dolphins - average team Lions - good team Vikings - bad team Jets - bad team Jets - bad team Browns - average team We've got one really good win this year. The rest are wins against average or bad teams. Last year we beat one playoff team, the Panthers. That was week 2. So unless we beat the Packers or Pats, The bills will have won 2 games agains playoff teams in 2 years. That's very bad.

 

So the Dolphins and Browns who share the same record as us are average but we are somehow better than them? Or is that the Bills also are an average team? I would take the flip side of your argument and say that the Bills only lose to good teams. Which is how it should be. Teams are not going to win every game. The Bills have only gotten to play 4 teams under .500 and that includes the 6-7 Vikings who you somehow call a bad team. Somehow though the Bills only have 6 losses. By your strange definition of good/bad shouldn't the Bills have 6 losses?

 

The GM admitted it was a win-now season. Why does that change now? I could understand if the Bills had an elite or very good QB who was injured early on and replaced with a backup. Look at the Cardinals. Playing in a tough division with the defending champs, they've lost their QB and still managed to beat KC at home yesterday. At 10-3, they're probably in the playoffs barring something absurd happening. How did they do it? 15 years of no playoffs. The longest streak since the playoff format was changed in 1990. If the GM says they have to make the playoffs and don't, how that's acceptable to fans is beyond me. BTW, Buffalo's wins have come against teams with a combined 38-53 record. Nothing says mediocre like beating up bad to average teams and then getting spaked on the road and at home by the better clubs, whose combined record is 49-29.

 

The Cardinals are certainly an anomaly. Arians has done a fantastic job which I won't argue. However since losing his qb the team is 2-2 and has scored 14,3,18, and 17 points. It's almost like having a qb is important....

 

As for the 15 year remark, you realize that Marrone is only responsible for 1 of those right? Also doesn't it perhaps speak to how difficult of a turn around it would be to come into a situation where a team has not had a winning record in so long and get them there? People are championing the turn around Harbaugh had in SF but fail to realize that they went 8-8 just 2 years before he got there. THe last time the Bills were 8-8 was 9 years before Marrone got here. Much more difficult turnaround imo.

[boyst]

I read everything here. But, just wanted to let you all know I only got up here to get a better view of whats down there. I am absolutely not in any denial.

[thebandit27]

I still think punting it back was the right move. Going for it and failing would have ended the game right then and there. By punting they gave themselves a chance to extend the game, which they did, and get it to within one score. Even if they go for it, get it, and proceed to score a td, you are still looking at the onside kick situation as it likely would have been under 3 minutes by then with no timeouts.

 

My philosophy on that is time-be-darned, you cannot give the ball back to (arguably) the best QB ever to play the game when you need 2 scores in under 5 minutes of game time. I'd prefer the situation where I miss the onside kick and still have the chance to get the ball back with :30 on the clock and no timeouts down 1 score over the one that gives Peyton Manning the football.

 

As for how easy the first 12 games were that was based on last years record. 4 games out of 12 were against teams that currently have a losing record and that includes counting the Jets twice.

 

I understand. There's just too many winnable games that they needed to have in that stretch.

 

As for the production not changing even with the injuries doesn't that speak to a great coaching job? Remember when losing a player meant the end of the year? I credit the coaches for that as that is one of the biggest signs of a successful team.

 

It's a chicken-or-the-egg issue. I think it speaks more to the quality of the roster than anything else. The team had quite a few injuries last year, and they didn't bounce back this way. It makes a big difference when the team has guys like Preston Brown and Corey Graham stepping in as opposed to Arthur Moats and Justin Rodgers.

[section122]

With all due respect to a lot of other posters whose contributions I enjoy, you are now my second-favorite contributor on TSW. My favorite is the guy who does the "A few thoughts about the game in no particular order" posts. Those are excellent. That said, I appreciate that you walked through this team point-by-point and highlighted the positive. I don't believe in moral victories or any of that crap, but there are positive indicators on which the 2014 Bills can build. There are serious needs, to be sure, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Thanks, Section 122. I was having a pretty lousy post-Sunday Monday, and your post helped a lot.

 

Thanks. I just see a team that is clearly headed in the right direction but many on this board feel that isn't the case. I'm always amazed that people can watch the same thing and come away with 2 completely different takeaways. I get the frustration with the Bills and their ineptitude in general just not with this team or these coaches. Each year is it's own animal and for the first time in a long time the Bills are still in it with 3 weeks to go!

 

Here's a telling stat for me. Right now, the bills record against teams with: Better record: 1 - 3 Same record: 2 - 3 Worse record: 4 - 0 Last year we were 1-5 against teams with winning records. It's likely that after Marrones first two years are up, the Bills will only have 2 wins against teams with winning records in about 14 games. (Assumes we lose to the Pats again, the Packers, and neither the Browns or the Dolphins end the season with a winning record)

 

You know what they say about assuming . So they went from 1-5 the first year to currently 3-6 which is an improvement. I love seeing that 4-0 vs. teams with a worse record. The sign of good coaching is beating the teams you are supposed to. Again I will say what games have the Bills lost that before the game started you thought they should have won? Maybe the Chiefs game? Maybe the second Dolphins game?

 

You know what my favorite thing about this team is? They are nobody's doormat. When teams have to play the Bills now they know it will be a tough physical game. The Bills aren't pushovers anymore. This team expects to win. It has been a long time since any of us could say any of these things about the Buffalo Bills!

I'm acutely aware of the options that were available, and I fully respect the relative lack of great ones since Whaley was given the reins. That's the biggest reason that I believe Whaley should be retained. More than any GM we've had since Polian, he at least made attempts to get better at the games most important position. He now needs to make an even greater effort to do so.

 

My philosophy on that is time-be-darned, you cannot give the ball back to (arguably) the best QB ever to play the game when you need 2 scores in under 5 minutes of game time. I'd prefer the situation where I miss the onside kick and still have the chance to get the ball back with :30 on the clock and no timeouts down 1 score over the one that gives Peyton Manning the football.

 

The reason I am okay with that is giving the ball back after missing the 4th down would have guaranteed the game was over. Peyton is great but he wasn't great yesterday (I actually think he is hiding an injury or worse a dead arm). By punting it Marrone extended the game and gave his offense another chance. I have no issue with it (but can see your side of the argument) as I feel it was the best play.

 

 

I understand. There's just too many winnable games that they needed to have in that stretch.

 

 

 

Winnable yes. Locks no. This team is still a few pieces away from the upper echelon teams imo. Particularly at G and QB.

 

 

It's a chicken-or-the-egg issue. I think it speaks more to the quality of the roster than anything else. The team had quite a few injuries last year, and they didn't bounce back this way. It makes a big difference when the team has guys like Preston Brown and Corey Graham stepping in as opposed to Arthur Moats and Justin Rodgers.

 

I won't argue that Whaley hasn't done a tremendous job as I think he has. Which is all the more reason I want to see continuity. Both in his role and the coaching staff. Remember how bad Crossman was last year before he got talent for his 1/3 of the team? Now all of a sudden he isn't too bad. I think we will see the same with Hackett if he is given even a mid level qb to work with instead of the bottom of the barrel he has been given.

[thebandit27]

The reason I am okay with that is giving the ball back after missing the 4th down would have guaranteed the game was over. Peyton is great but he wasn't great yesterday (I actually think he is hiding an injury or worse a dead arm). By punting it Marrone extended the game and gave his offense another chance. I have no issue with it (but can see your side of the argument) as I feel it was the best play.

 

Fair enough...as to Peyton, my vote is on dead arm...I started thinking that about him last year. They really need to win it all this year so that he can retire; I fear that--if they don't--he'll get caught in the trap of chasing one last ring for far too long and fade into something that isn't Peyton Manning.

 

Winnable yes. Locks no. This team is still a few pieces away from the upper echelon teams imo. Particularly at G and QB.

 

Certainly not locks. That Houston game though--ugh. That's in the "definitely should've won" category for me. The KC game may be there too, as the game-winning plays were there to be made in the 4th quarter.

 

No doubt that OG and QB are the two biggest holes on the team--my other spot is that elusive 3rd quality pass rusher that dominant defenses seem to have. I'd love to see them re-sign Hughes and land another situational guy (maybe O'Brien Schofield or Pernell McPhee), moving Lawson back to LB (where he can play situationally in a coverage and blitzing role).

 

I won't argue that Whaley hasn't done a tremendous job as I think he has. Which is all the more reason I want to see continuity. Both in his role and the coaching staff. Remember how bad Crossman was last year before he got talent for his 1/3 of the team? Now all of a sudden he isn't too bad. I think we will see the same with Hackett if he is given even a mid level qb to work with instead of the bottom of the barrel he has been given.

 

Yeah, as I said it's a chicken-or-the-egg discussion.

 

I will say, however, that I was squarely in the corner of Crossman not being at fault for the ST units last year.

[C.Biscuit97]

Accept the average, don't try to be better. I like it.

 

Haha. That is where I used to be. I'm done. The second the switched QBs to the "better option," the excuses were done. It was playoffs or bust. Instead we wasted a year on Kyle freakin' Orton.

 

We might win one more game than we used to under Jauron. Awesome. I guess that is like a victory parade for Bills' fans these days. So sad.

[mannc]

 

Accept the average? Or be realistic about expectations? Do you not feel that this team is better than it was 3 years ago? Do you not feel this team plays tougher than 3 years ago? What did you think this team would be record wise this year at this point? If you are being honest with yourself 7-6 is probably very close. This is the best Bills football we have seen in a long time! That isn't accepting mediocrity that is hoping that the Bills brass is smarter than message boards and won't blow up a good thing. Don't let perfect be the enemy of very good.

Will you feel the same way if we finish 7-9 and run for the bus in the last game against the Pats? I believe that is a real possibility. Remember at the beginning of the year when the Dougs told us it was playoffs or bust? Well, it's bust. I believe the only difference between this Bills team and the ones in the Mularkey/Jauron era is a superior defense. The offense continues to be one of the five worst in the league, as it seemingly has been for eons. I would fire Marrone unless the team wins its remaining games. I could stomach bringing him back if they finish 9-7.

[section122]

Will you feel the same way if we finish 7-9 and run for the bus in the last game against the Pats? I believe that is a real possibility. Remember at the beginning of the year when the Dougs told us it was playoffs or bust? Well, it's bust. I believe the only difference between this Bills team and the ones in the Mularkey/Jauron era is a superior defense. The offense continues to be one of the five worst in the league, as it seemingly has been for eons. I would fire Marrone unless the team wins its remaining games. I could stomach bringing him back if they finish 9-7.

 

No I won't. I just don't see that happening though. This team has not laid down at all under Marrone. The offense is 22nd in yards and 18th in points. Hardly bottom 5. I don't see a loss to the Raiders bc this team hasn't lost to a team it should beat all year. I would love to see an upset in one of the other games but I can't understand the line of thinking that losing to the 3 best teams in the NFL somehow makes Marrone a bad coach if that indeed does happen.

[mannc]

 

 

 

We might win one more game than we used to under Jauron. Awesome. I guess that is like a victory parade for Bills' fans these days. So sad.

As I said when the Bills were 5-3 and everyone here was congratulating themselves, Bills fans have lower standards than any fans in the league, possibly in all of professional sports. Hence, posts like the one by the OP.

[C.Biscuit97]

No I won't. I just don't see that happening though. This team has not laid down at all under Marrone. The offense is 22nd in yards and 18th in points. Hardly bottom 5. I don't see a loss to the Raiders bc this team hasn't lost to a team it should beat all year. I would love to see an upset in one of the other games but I can't understand the line of thinking that losing to the 3 best teams in the NFL somehow makes Marrone a bad coach if that indeed does happen.

 

It's more the Chiefs and Miami games. It's more giving up on a 1st round pick for Kyle Orton. It's more about the team taking bad penalities. It's more about hiring Hackett. It's more about his 4th down decision making.

 

And teams didn't lie down for Jauron or Gailey on their heroic 7-9/ 6-10 marches either. It's the NFL, players are motivated by money and future jobs.

[section122]

Fair enough...as to Peyton, my vote is on dead arm...I started thinking that about him last year. They really need to win it all this year so that he can retire; I fear that--if they don't--he'll get caught in the trap of chasing one last ring for far too long and fade into something that isn't Peyton Manning.

 

 

Yeah I can't see them winning this year. I wouldn't at all be surprised if he hung it up at the end of the year either. He is an all time great hopefully he doesn't go out like Willie Mays.

 

 

 

 

Certainly not locks. That Houston game though--ugh. That's in the "definitely should've won" category for me. The KC game may be there too, as the game-winning plays were there to be made in the 4th quarter.

 

 

Still kills me that they didn't call at least D holding on that last pick. Would have loved to see a win there too myself. That and the KC game are the 2 possibles for me as well. I fully expected a loss to Mia on the Thursday night game. I was hoping for a win but wasn't surprised it didn't happen.

[mannc]

 

 

I would love to see an upset in one of the other games but I can't understand the line of thinking that losing to the 3 best teams in the NFL somehow makes Marrone a bad coach if that indeed does happen.

The team did not lie down under Jauron, either. The problem is not just that they lost to NE and Denver; they also lost games they should have won against Houston, Miami and KC--games where coaching arguably was the difference.

[dave mcbride]

It's more the Chiefs and Miami games. It's more giving up on a 1st round pick for Kyle Orton. It's more about the team taking bad penalities. It's more about hiring Hackett. It's more about his 4th down decision making.

 

And teams didn't lie down for Jauron or Gailey on their heroic 7-9/ 6-10 marches either. It's the NFL, players are motivated by money and future jobs.

Isn't it arguable that the best thing that could have happened to Manuel was to sit? Most of the best qbs playing right now sat for at least a season - Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, Brady. Throwing QBs to the wolves right away when they're clearly not ready usually doesn't end well.

[section122]

As I said when the Bills were 5-3 and everyone here was congratulating themselves, Bills fans have lower standards than any fans in the league, possibly in all of professional sports. Hence, posts like the one by the OP.

 

After a decade and a half of futility it might be understandable no? Did you expect an overnight turnaround from the string of Gailey 6-10s? As I posted earlier 9 seasons before Marrone got here was the last time the Bills had a winning record. 9! This guy though doesn't get his 3 years though because "fans" have had enough?

 

 

It's more the Chiefs and Miami games. It's more giving up on a 1st round pick for Kyle Orton. It's more about the team taking bad penalities. It's more about hiring Hackett. It's more about his 4th down decision making.

 

And teams didn't lie down for Jauron or Gailey on their heroic 7-9/ 6-10 marches either. It's the NFL, players are motivated by money and future jobs.

 

Man what happened to you? I hope all is well with you and yours but you have just been on a serious crusade the last few weeks. We get it you didn't like the move to Orton. You don't see any difference between this team and Jauron or Gailey? Seriously?

[RuntheDamnBall]

 

??? What could it have been?

with a qb capable of directing the offense to better results, with a better balance in the attack, game planning against opposition weaknesses? A playoff team. Are you seriously asking the question?

 

Instead we went with a QB the staff apparently didn't believe in enough to stick with, another that got picked up on the eve of the season, and a series of baffling decisions on offense.

 

Of course there has been progress. The team has 7 wins and can still end on a positive. I chalk that up to the talent Whaley has assembled.

 

They should have won one, possibly two more games, and we wouldn't be having this moral victory conversation again / yet.

[DrDawkinstein]

how about accepting improvements....if someone had told me we would have had a chance to win or tie the game at the end I would have told you you were crazy. Section122 is right....this team is going in the right direction, it's not an overnight process, losses suck, but the fact that we feel like we could/should have won this game shows how far we have come.

I'm on board with this general sentiment.

 

We need a QB, but other than that, this team has all the pieces.

 

 

I say more time for Marrone, but we could do better than Hackett.

 

Agreed here