12Kachy Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 I agree, Start Manuel. I liked the Orton switch but he has slid to nothing. If the Bills lose against the Packers, then put manuel in at the end of that game. Manuel now has seen how a veteran QB has played. Before this, he was in competition with Kolb (last year) and Orton (this year). I dont think he was ever properly mentored and he needed to be.
Mango Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Disagree. Keep EJ on the bench and let him compete in the off season. This is Orton's show at the moment and it doesn't do EJ any good to have to come in only to be ridiculed if he doesn't immediately rally them to three wins in a row. And I certainly don't want him playing in a "run for the bus" game, either. He needs to play meaningful games surrounded by teammates with meaningful expectations. GO BILLS!!! This^^^ I have myself started looking at FA QBs, but at some point if the Bills keep Manuel around they have to bite the bullet and live through a season or two of starts to see. He isn't Geno bad, or Gabbeet bad. Anybody saying that the same type of people that oppose that with the Manning 28 interceptions. Rookie QBs take time. Yes there are anomalies but QB play is set pretty low across the the league right now. Christ the top 4 QBs have been the top 4 for a decade. In all seriousness Favre was on that list not too long ago. The league is discarding QBs at a pretty high rate and the overall quality is not good. I think coaching is down league wide as well. There are a handful of good ones and everybody else is just trying not to mess up.
bowery4 Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 I say sit EJ and see what Orton has left if anything. At least until they are out because of math. Then it might be my chioce to start the competition right away and give each a half per game. Then if they really can, find a FA or trade for a QB (I would try for Eli, McCoy or even Kap personally) and draft one mid to late. Next year start who ever wins camp and see how it goes and probably at the end of the year rinse and repeat until you have your guy. I am really not sure if any of them (staff and FO) will be back though. If it is a clean house situation, I just hope whatever they do they can keep the D completely intact. Uhh,The Bills are eliminated.....Have been for a while......like a chicken with its head cut off they keep moving but their fate is sealed. Put EJ in and start planning for next season. This one is over, in terms of playoffs. We just lost in the pre first round yesterday to a good team playing bad football and still having their way with us. Define failure. Lose games while looking like crap? Then they are setting up Orton also. It's called getting him real reps. It's called planning for the future. It's a chance to see who else on the team keeps playing for pride(keepers) and who packs it up early (Trade bait ). Silly, you don't quit until it's over. Really, I know someone who won a lottery.
papazoid Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 fame is fleeting..... 49ers fans are burning Colin Kaepernick jerseys http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/12/8/7356473/49ers-fans-burning-colin-kaepernick-jerseys
TSOL Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Speculation during the game last night that Harharharbaugh could be going to Oakland or the Jets. Sounds like that 1st or 2nd overall draft pic might be appealing to him. They can have him
Beerball Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 meanwhile, back on topic... There are only two reasons to not start Manuel for the rest of the season (aside from the "we're still alive for the playoffs" faction) . Coaches already "know" all that they need to about EJ. or Coaches are literally fighting to keep their jobs and they don't care about finding out all that they need to know about EJ. (future be damned, I need to win another game or two and I'm not willing to sacrifice my job for one player who may or may not have a future in the league)
GunnerBill Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Coaches are literally fighting to keep their jobs and they don't care about finding out all that they need to know about EJ. (future be damned, I need to win another game or two and I'm not willing to sacrifice my job for one player who may or may not have a future in the league) We have a winner!
jzier2 Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 My thoughts are we should fire Hackett (I've seen enough) and bring in a new OC and see what his preference is. I can see a scenario where Orton and Manuel return next year with a veteran that the new OC brings in and they all compete. Which ever one doesn't perform in the new system gets cut. As much as I am frustrated with DM, I despise the idea of scrapping the whole crew and starting over...again. I do believe that DW deserves to stay.
JESSEFEFFER Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 1) The offensive line has stabilized as it no longer is letting stunting lineman come through untouched and JJ Watt does not play for Green Bay. 2) There is no difference in production between Orton and Manuel in games not involving the anomolous NJ Jets, Both have a .500 kind of look to their games. EJ's 4 and 6 rookie year rookie record has the Cle and Atl games in the mix. 3) Orton has had excellent 4th quarter production which tells me he is a viable relief pitcher option if need be. 4) I'd want to see if there is anything different about EJ's approach now vs. then and that doesn't happen without playing him. 5) As a fan, I am much much tolerant of a 2nd year QB's mistakes than those of a 10 year vet. 6) Many of EJs bad, wtf plays did not seem that way under "further review." Kendall Reyes tipped that pass, Sammy stumbled in the middle of the route, there were lineman blocking down field on a designed run play that made a throw to avoid a loss a poor option, etc. So, when I am repeatedly wrong about what I saw in live action, I tend to think that criticism of EJ's play was overblown.
voodoo poonani Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Orton sucks really bad. I agree they should put EJ back in to see if he's learned anything. Either way, I'd draft a QB in Round 2 next year. Until we find our guy at QB, this team is stuck in the mud.
PolishDave Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 When EJ starts throwing more accurately than Orton with consistency while making the right decision about which receiver to throw to in practice, then fine, bring him back in as the starter. Until that happens, the best thing he can do for this team is to keep a seat warm on the bench. If EJ isn't outplaying Orton in practice then don't friggin bother putting him in a game. What would be the point? At best you would just ignite a massive QB controversy with an inferior quarterback. That would be the most insane thing a coach could do. EJ will get his shot. It will be next year in the preseason. If he gets it by then, then let him lead. Otherwise he makes a good waterboy.
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 meanwhile, back on topic... There are only two reasons to not start Manuel for the rest of the season (aside from the "we're still alive for the playoffs" faction) . Coaches already "know" all that they need to about EJ. or Coaches are literally fighting to keep their jobs and they don't care about finding out all that they need to know about EJ. (future be damned, I need to win another game or two and I'm not willing to sacrifice my job for one player who may or may not have a future in the league) It's this and this is what drives me crazy about this season. I've said from day 1, there wasn't enough of an upgrade to switch to Orton. I wanted 2 things from the season: playoffs or to know about EJ. Instead, we are going 8-8 developing Kyle Orton. That accomplishes nothing. 1) The offensive line has stabilized as it no longer is letting stunting lineman come through untouched and JJ Watt does not play for Green Bay. 2) There is no difference in production between Orton and Manuel in games not involving the anomolous NJ Jets, Both have a .500 kind of look to their games. EJ's 4 and 6 rookie year rookie record has the Cle and Atl games in the mix. 3) Orton has had excellent 4th quarter production which tells me he is a viable relief pitcher option if need be. 4) I'd want to see if there is anything different about EJ's approach now vs. then and that doesn't happen without playing him. 5) As a fan, I am much much tolerant of a 2nd year QB's mistakes than those of a 10 year vet. 6) Many of EJs bad, wtf plays did not seem that way under "further review." Kendall Reyes tipped that pass, Sammy stumbled in the middle of the route, there were lineman blocking down field on a designed run play that made a throw to avoid a loss a poor option, etc. So, when I am repeatedly wrong about what I saw in live action, I tend to think that criticism of EJ's play was overblown. Excellent post. 1) Take away the Jets games (who EJ helped beat and scored 37 points againt in his last start against them, we own the Jets for whatever reason), Orton is 3-4. Without those Jets' game, the Bills average 17.3 points per game. In the first 4 starts under EJ, we averaged 19.75. 2) Could you imagined Orton against Watt? Watt destroyed our oline and put some big hits on EJ. 3) How can anyone respect Orton after that 3rd and 1 play and all the times he falls to the ground to avoid hits. If it was Trent, people would be ripping him more. 4) Our run game got a lot worse when EJ got benched. There is nothing to be gained by playing Orton. Marrone just does not want to admit he screwed up. Jay Gruden looks awful for his qb handling. As a result, Marrone is cheating this fanbase. #freeEJ
1billsfan Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 It's this and this is what drives me crazy about this season. I've said from day 1, there wasn't enough of an upgrade to switch to Orton. I wanted 2 things from the season: playoffs or to know about EJ. Instead, we are going 8-8 developing Kyle Orton. That accomplishes nothing. Unfortunately we have had a second helping of Dick Jauron coaching our QBs the last two years. So trying to garner any useful information regarding EJ Manuel is futile. I truly believe that if Chip Kelly had EJ Manuel for the last two years he would have him as a top 10 QB in the league right now. Manuel is a QB that will do what you tell him to do. If you tell him to not make mistakes and it's better to check down than risk getting an interceptions then that is what you will get. If you tell him to run when he sees a clear field and to not worry about throwing the ball deep if he thinks he can get the ball to the WR because interceptions are acceptable in your offense since you're attacking the defense, then EJ will do this and you would get a true read on his prospects as a franchise QB. The only thing that anyone knows is that Manuel sucks in an extremely predictable vanilla run 1st/2nd/check down pass 3rd offense. I can't wait till Marrone and Hackett are gone. This feels just like it did under Jauron, there's no shaking it.
PolishDave Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) #freeEJ Dude.. if you are as dedicated in your day job as you are dedicated to trying to get EJ more playing time, then your boss must think you are one hell of an awesome employee. Maybe you are buddies with EJ or his family or something. I don't know. More power to you if you are. I tried to think of a good analogy for what you are doing here. This is all I could come up with. Last time I was in New Orleans, we stayed out drinking on Bourbon Street until the cops came through on horses and made everyone leave (around 4 or 5AM). Then they hosed off the street with fire hoses. In between the cops and the fire hoses there would be this homeless alcoholic guy who would run out and chug half a beer that some other hammered person had discarded and left sitting on a stair step somewhere along the way. That alcoholic just had to get one more taste of that thing he could just not get enough of. Even though it was all about to be washed down the drain in a few minutes, he still had to get that one last sip. You are an alcoholic. EJ is your beer. Edited December 9, 2014 by PolishDave
C.Biscuit97 Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Unfortunately we have had a second helping of Dick Jauron coaching our QBs the last two years. So trying to garner any useful information regarding EJ Manuel is futile. I truly believe that if Chip Kelly had EJ Manuel for the last two years he would have him as a top 10 QB in the league right now. Manuel is a QB that will do what you tell him to do. If you tell him to not make mistakes and it's better to check down than risk getting an interceptions then that is what you will get. If you tell him to run when he sees a clear field and to not worry about throwing the ball deep if he thinks he can get the ball to the WR because interceptions are acceptable in your offense since you're attacking the defense, then EJ will do this and you would get a true read on his prospects as a franchise QB. The only thing that anyone knows is that Manuel sucks in an extremely predictable vanilla run 1st/2nd/check down pass 3rd offense. I can't wait till Marrone and Hackett are gone. This feels just like it did under Jauron, there's no shaking it. As a former Jauron apologist, I agree 100% with this post. Folks seem to think EJ would be the exact same player on every team. Good coaches bring out the best in players. Fans have no patience. The same part is we going to keep Marrone/ Hackett and think they can succeed with another QB. They won't and will get fired. Then we'll watch players like Manuel and Spiller shine on different teams. And the same idiots who gave up on Manuel after 14 games will be posting about how dumb the Bills were for letting him go.
Dibs Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Dude.. if you are as dedicated in your day job as you are dedicated to trying to get EJ more playing time, then your boss must think you are one hell of an awesome employee. ..... I didn't realize that posting here could cause change in the Bills organization. I'll have to post more often.
John Cocktosten Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Put EJ in so he can prove to his last few fan boys that he's not a good QB. There will still be a few that say, "he's only had 17 starts!" but most will realize that he's not the one and OBD can move on from our whole current stable of sad QBs.
HOUSE Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 No. Don't play EJ the rest of the way. That way, it'll be a long way back to the Houston game and maybe other teams will forget like the OP that he doesn't belong on an NFL field and we can steal a 6th Rounder from someone for him. Great ,we gave up a 6th rounder for Mike Williams and the best we can hope for is a 6th for EJ ?
1billsfan Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 (edited) As a former Jauron apologist, I agree 100% with this post. Folks seem to think EJ would be the exact same player on every team. Good coaches bring out the best in players. Fans have no patience. The same part is we going to keep Marrone/ Hackett and think they can succeed with another QB. They won't and will get fired. Then we'll watch players like Manuel and Spiller shine on different teams. And the same idiots who gave up on Manuel after 14 games will be posting about how dumb the Bills were for letting him go. It's unfortunate that some fans here don't realize how bad our offensive coaching is. We can only hope that the new head coach will run an attacking type of offense and we will get a real evaluation on Manuel. I really think that Marrone and Hackett are gone so this team will get a true read on Manuel before they jettison him to another team. EJ Manuel absolutely doesn't get a free pass since he did regress badly, but I would like to see what a competent coach can do with him. Edited December 9, 2014 by 1billsfan
Mango Posted December 9, 2014 Posted December 9, 2014 Unfortunately we have had a second helping of Dick Jauron coaching our QBs the last two years. I truly believe that if Chip Kelly had EJ Manuel for the last two years he would have him as a top 10 QB in the league right now. This feels just like it did under Jauron, there's no shaking it. 2 things: 1. On the Jauron thing. Nailed it. Never thought of it before but that's exactly the way this offense feels. 2. I have been big on this in the past. We always yammer about not drafting Wilson, Kaep, or Brady. I can say with a great deal of confidence that those guys would never be the players they are now with this franchise. That's not to say that I think we blew huge talents in JP, Trent, or EJ. It is just that I have had little confidence that any of those coaches are getting that out of their young QB's. Example...see Alex Smith. Unless we have a really cerebral guy like Fitz, then we get almost exactly the same production out of every QB regardless of skill set. How in gods green earth can we get the same production out of Tuel, EJ, Orton, and Lewis. That's just the last 365 days. Trents and JPs numbers fit well there too. I'm tempted to even say that a guy like Luck wouldn't lead this team the way he does in Indy. Newton would be cut already.
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