K-9 Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 I personally believe that GMs and coaches yell at each other at the top of their lungs all the time, on all teams. So I don't think that argument was anything unusual except that they allowed it to happen in front of some people. I would bet every dollar I could get my hands on that it was Marrone because he's a hothead and often wears his emotions on his sleeve and often doesn't think too much before he talks. That's not really a criticism either. And for the most part I like Marrone. He does more good than bad. If he was soooooo pissed as you say about Palmer, why would he keep him in the game after his third INT after only two days of practice. Unless, of course, he was doing it on purpose to prove a point, which is in line with accusations of holding grudges. I wouldn't question the idea that Marrone was not happy with Palmer. I totally question that he was furious about not getting Orton yet for reasons stated above. Marrone liked Tuel. No one was going to offer Orton 10m. It was reported that several teams contacted and wanted him from the time he left the Cowboys and signed with the Bills. The reason was obvious why he signed when he did. He kept him in because he needed the reps in a brand new scheme he only had a couple of practices in. This idea that he was purposely looking to stick it to Palmer because he was pissed about having him is absurd. I think Marrone can separate his frustration with the people who provide personnel vs. the personnel itself. But I guess that fits a certain narrative about Marrone around these parts. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 He kept him in because he needed the reps in a brand new scheme he only had a couple of practices in. This idea that he was purposely looking to stick it to Palmer because he was pissed about having him is absurd. I think Marrone can separate his frustration with the people who provide personnel vs. the personnel itself. But I guess that fits a certain narrative about Marrone around these parts. GO BILLS!!! You implied, I think, that Marrone knew that Palmer sucked and wasn't going to be on the team anyway, considering the statement about not to bother with the tape cut ups. So unless I am misreading you, those two things don't fit. If he knew he was subpar, had already seen him play like crap for a half, and knew he wasn't going to stay, why keep him in there when Tuel or Thad could use the reps when one of them (Tuel) was surely to stay. The only reason I brought up the grudge thing, and I stated it, was IF he knew Palmer wasn't the guy, that is the only reason I could think of to keep him in at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 You implied, I think, that Marrone knew that Palmer sucked and wasn't going to be on the team anyway, considering the statement about not to bother with the tape cut ups. So unless I am misreading you, those two things don't fit. If he knew he was subpar, had already seen him play like crap for a half, and knew he wasn't going to stay, why keep him in there when Tuel or Thad could use the reps when one of them (Tuel) was surely to stay. The only reason I brought up the grudge thing, and I stated it, was IF he knew Palmer wasn't the guy, that is the only reason I could think of to keep him in at that point. I have no problem separating a loss of temper on a Monday night, when he was informed of the acquisition and said don't bother with the cutups out of the frustration over not getting a player he preferred, and what transpired in the preseason game three nights later. Marrone didn't know Palmer wasn't going to stay on that Monday night. Lewis was cut in favor of Palmer so he wasn't there to get the reps anyway. And if Palmer was thought to be the veteran backup, you give him those reps over Tuel, as well. He needed all the reps he could get only a couple days into a new system. And I could also make the argument that Marrone did the right thing by giving Palmer a chance to play his way out of a poor performance. Hard to do during the Chinese fire drill that last preseason games so often resemble. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 Not unusual for a HC to prefer certain players at certain positions. But that would be a good question for him now as well; does Marrone regret cutting Jackson so early on? Given how the situation panned out, easy to think Marrone screwed up that decision. Too many eggs in the Kolb/promising draft pick basket. GO BILLS!!! And therein lies a lot of my questions with marrone - sometimes he's incredibly bold and risky while others he seems timid. While I hope he becomes consistently sharp on his decisions I worry some of the back and forth with no rhyme or reason may end up being his identity. I haven't closed the book on him yet by any means but.... I can't get a good read on why he's less than consistent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 And therein lies a lot of my questions with marrone - sometimes he's incredibly bold and risky while others he seems timid. While I hope he becomes consistently sharp on his decisions I worry some of the back and forth with no rhyme or reason may end up being his identity. I haven't closed the book on him yet by any means but.... I can't get a good read on why he's less than consistent No doubt. He's been good for more than a few head scratchers. I just don't happen to think he's being inconsistent when it comes to MW. He's the coach, MW is the player and there's always only one voice in that equation. It's easy to sit back and say MW would be the answer to all our redzone problems, but that's a QB issue and not a receiver not getting open issue. But depending how the team finishes, it may be a moot point anyway. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 I have no problem separating a loss of temper on a Monday night, when he was informed of the acquisition and said don't bother with the cutups out of the frustration over not getting a player he preferred, and what transpired in the preseason game three nights later. Marrone didn't know Palmer wasn't going to stay on that Monday night. Lewis was cut in favor of Palmer so he wasn't there to get the reps anyway. And if Palmer was thought to be the veteran backup, you give him those reps over Tuel, as well. He needed all the reps he could get only a couple days into a new system. And I could also make the argument that Marrone did the right thing by giving Palmer a chance to play his way out of a poor performance. Hard to do during the Chinese fire drill that last preseason games so often resemble. GO BILLS!!! I think they pretty much knew they were getting Orton unless, of course, a starter went down that same night. That's why they had to get a stopgap guy just in case they didn't land him after it became glaringly apparent that Thad, and Tuel and Dixon were having terrible training camps. Palmer, having played long enough as a backup, and known to be smart enough to pick things up quickly, was that guy. I of course am just assuming some stuff based on a lot of factors. Without hearing these guys speak behind closed doors, it's tough to know anything for sure. I find it impossible to believe that Whaley, based on everything he did at every single position on the team, was the guy who didn't address the QB position so much that Marrone had to yell at him on the sidelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 You implied, I think, that Marrone knew that Palmer sucked and wasn't going to be on the team anyway, considering the statement about not to bother with the tape cut ups. So unless I am misreading you, those two things don't fit. If he knew he was subpar, had already seen him play like crap for a half, and knew he wasn't going to stay, why keep him in there when Tuel or Thad could use the reps when one of them (Tuel) was surely to stay. The only reason I brought up the grudge thing, and I stated it, was IF he knew Palmer wasn't the guy, that is the only reason I could think of to keep him in at that point. You are over-analyzing the qb situation Marrone was facing. After seeing EJ in training camp and during the preseason he was well aware that EJ was not ready to start.The backup options DM had to work with were frightfully bad. At the time his backup options and possible near distant starter was Palmer, Tuel or Lewis. You don't think that his qb situation caused him great anxiety? It doesn't really matter which backup qb you prefer because they were all grossly inadequate If Orton was under consideration by the front office it would be foolish for DM not to be aggressive in encouraging the front office to make the extra effort to get him. As it turned out the situation played out as Marrone expected. EJ was not yet ready (if ever he will be???). Marrone was right in not allowing the season to be sabotaged because the young starting qb couldn't handle the job. In hindsight Marrone was correct that Orton was the best qb option for his team. To his credit he decisively moved to replace the young qb with the qb he preferred over the less than appealing qbs that he had on the roster. Willing to make the qb change at such an early juncture in the season is what salvaged this season. For that he should be praised. As far as the so-called conflict between Whaley and Marrone that doesn't bother me. It is part of the process and working environment between a GM with a longer term perspective and a HC with a more immediate term perspective. Too much is made of that exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 You are over-analyzing the qb situation Marrone was facing. After seeing EJ in training camp and during the preseason he was well aware that EJ was not ready to start.The backup options DM had to work with were frightfully bad. At the time his backup options and possible near distant starter was Palmer, Tuel or Lewis. You don't think that his qb situation caused him great anxiety? It doesn't really matter which backup qb you prefer because they were all grossly inadequate If Orton was under consideration by the front office it would be foolish for DM not to be aggressive in encouraging the front office to make the extra effort to get him. As it turned out the situation played out as Marrone expected. EJ was not yet ready (if ever he will be???). Marrone was right in not allowing the season to be sabotaged because the young starting qb couldn't handle the job. In hindsight Marrone was correct that Orton was the best qb option for his team. To his credit he decisively moved to replace the young qb with the qb he preferred over the less than appealing qbs that he had on the roster. Willing to make the qb change at such an early juncture in the season is what salvaged this season. For that he should be praised. As far as the so-called conflict between Whaley and Marrone that doesn't bother me. It is part of the process and working environment between a GM with a longer term perspective and a HC with a more immediate term perspective. Too much is made of that exchange. Why assume it was Marrone and not Whaley who didn't like the QBs? It was glaringly obvious from OTAs that Thad and Tuel did not progress one bit and if anything regressed. And there is every reason to believe Tuel was a Marrone guy not necessarily a Whaley guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Why assume it was Marrone and not Whaley who didn't like the QBs? It was glaringly obvious from OTAs that Thad and Tuel did not progress one bit and if anything regressed. And there is every reason to believe Tuel was a Marrone guy not necessarily a Whaley guy. The issue of Thad and Tuel regressing or not is irrelevant. Both qbs are fringe players at best. Each barely qualifies as emergency qbs. The HC needed to have Orton on the roster sooner rather than later because the backup situation was dire with Tuel, Palmer and Lewis. Whaley is not a dope. He clearly understood, as did Marrone, that EJ was not ready. Both of them watched him during the OTAs, training camp and preseason. It was my understanding that Orton was contacted by the front office during the offseason. What is clear is that DM was not going to allow EJ to struggle at the expense of having the season be quickly tanked. It was DM who informed Whaley that he was making a change. He was not asking the GM for his permission because he simply was no longer going to tolerate such a qb void on a team that did have talent, especially on the defensive side of the ball. No one can conclusively prove whether the GM or the HC was the driving force in acquiring Orton because we are not privy to the conversations going on among the staff. But you don't have to be a football afficionado to recognize that the Bills had a desperate situation at qb. If DM was aware that there was contact between the GM and Orton it would be reasonable to believe that he would aggressively encourage the GM to get something done. There was too much at stake for him to allow the situation to deteriorate into another early lost season. On this issue I agree with K-9's assessment of the situation. Overall I don't believe that there was much difference between Whaley and Marrone's assessment of the team's qb situation. Each knew that the qb situation as the season approached was untenable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Overall I don't believe that there was much difference between Whaley and Marrone's assessment of the team's qb situation. Each knew that the qb situation as the season approached was untenable. I agree with that. I think it was abundantly clear, implied by Orton himself IMO, and proven true, that Orton was not going to sign until the eve of the season. There is no chance in my mind that Marrone didn't know that. I also truly believe that Marrone thought before the preseason games that Tuel could be a backup QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 i think the issue some have is that trading for the guy and then shelving him could amount to a bad check swing - you pick up the strike but never had a shot to make contact. Fantastic analogy N S ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) I agree with that. I think it was abundantly clear, implied by Orton himself IMO, and proven true, that Orton was not going to sign until the eve of the season. There is no chance in my mind that Marrone didn't know that. I also truly believe that Marrone thought before the preseason games that Tuel could be a backup QB. Orton was in control of the situation (as you noted). He was holding the cards. He was willing to delay signing at the risk of not playing because if the Bills went in another direction he would have been satisfied with retiring. Orton knew that he hurt his chances of starting by signing so late. But he didn't care. What is sad about this situation is that although Orton is a very mediocre qb he was a major upgrade compared to what we had to work with. That is an indictment of the organization that should be mostly directed toward Nix who is still on the payroll. Edited December 7, 2014 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 During his interview process, Marrone was asked about his ideas on staffing and he named Pettine as one of his targets. This is routine. I don't understand, other than the "Marrone is an idiot" narrative, why it's so hard to accept. No doubt Pettine was excited to get this front four. Who wouldn't be. Great selling point. GO BILLS!!! and then again for Schwartz. this should be noted. Buffalo has become somewhat desirable for coaches. and thats gotta be on Whaley a little bit Orton was in control of the situation (as you noted). He was holding the cards. He was willing to delay signing at the risk of not playing because if the Bills went in another direction he would have been satisfied with retiring. Orton knew that he hurt his chances of starting by signing so late. But he didn't care. What is sad about this situation is that although Orton is a very mediocre qb he was a major upgrade compared to what we had to work with. That is an indictment of the organization that should be mostly directed toward Nix who is still on the payroll. the Bills are still digging out of a huge sinkhole.being quick to judge or clean house ( less than 3 years ) is kinda futile. just keep tweaking the team. we know the O line is weak and we know the QB has a mediocre ceiling. The Offense could look a lot better than it does player wise. Next year could be the trick. Can Bills balance the budget while keeping the defense together and upgrade the O ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninMinn. Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 The Mike Williams situation is a direct result of a bumbling punt happy coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 and then again for Schwartz. this should be noted. Buffalo has become somewhat desirable for coaches. and thats gotta be on Whaley a little bit I give Whaley all the credit in the world. He's made some smart moves with the trade of Sheppard for Hughes perhaps the steal of the century when you think about it. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I give Whaley all the credit in the world. He's made some smart moves with the trade of Sheppard for Hughes perhaps the steal of the century when you think about it. GO BILLS!!! Sure. There is more than that. That is one move that will remain a feather in his cap. But there are more of course.Interesting synergy going on at One Bills drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Sure. There is more than that. That is one move that will remain a feather in his cap. But there are more of course. Interesting synergy going on at One Bills drive This is another reason that I believe that Whaley was not the guy responsible for the lack of QBs but was listening to his coach. We were hurt by lack of ST last year. What did he do? Sign two all-pro ST players and leaders in Boobie and Corey Graham. We were hurt last year from injuries to CJ and Fred at RB. What did he do? He got two more in Dixon and Bryce Brown, both of who do different stuff, so we had four of them that could play. We were hurt last year by lack of WR. What did he do? He drafted the best one and traded for a solid NFL starter who, together with Woods and Goodwin, formed a team of four guys who all did different stuff well. We were hurt last year from lack of linebackers and couldn't stop the run. What did he do? He signed Brandon Spikes, the best run stuffer in the league, signed Rivers and drafted a LB in the 3rd round who can play right away. We were hurt last year by bad punting and short KO. What did he do? He finally found a very good punter and KO specialist, both of whom have excelled. We had a lack of CB after our first three. What did he do? He signed one of the best reserve CBs in the league who started in the Super Bowl in Corey Graham and drafter one in the fourth round. We had problems with the OL last year. What did he do? He signed a starter LG, drafted three OL in the draft, (One could argue they didn't turn out well but the point is he addressed it with multiple players. The only position of weakness he didn't address was TE where he was counting on, or hoping for Moeaki to play and all reports were if he didnt trade for Watkins he was drafting a TE in the first round. He didn't hit a homerun on all of them obviously, which is impossible anyway. But I was astounded that when he is looking at the roster, and did every one of those things, that he wouldn't address the most important one. That's why I strongly believe that Marrone convinced him that he could mold Tuel and EJ. When it became glaringly obvious he couldn't. Whaley went hard for Orton and got him before the season started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I personally believe that GMs and coaches yell at each other at the top of their lungs all the time, on all teams. That must be awesome fun in the Patriots' offices... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 That must be awesome fun in the Patriots' offices... Yup. It ends fairly quickly however when Bellichick's eyes go red sans contacts like Mario Williams' do with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 (edited) Sure. There is more than that. That is one move that will remain a feather in his cap. But there are more of course. Interesting synergy going on at One Bills drive On the defensive side we have an identity, coaches brought in that fit the abilities, players brought in to fit the scheme and then guys used as expected. it seems there was a plan, it was communicated then executed. On offense it seems we throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. The players don't match the scheme, the scheme doesn't seem to match any particular philosophy. The GM and coaches seen to be on different pages. The makeup of the coaching staff doesn't match what was sold at the hiring. Players calling out coaches, mysterious benchings..... even best case scenario, I'm not sure what it was supposed to be at this point. Sure, some is injuries- but a lot is not. It's a stark difference on all levels from the first week of the hire- and it's surprising it's not the head coaches specialty that is coming across without vision. Edited December 7, 2014 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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