The_Dude Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:16 PM, KRC said: Can you explain how you can determine the present value of a non-specified investment? Expand You can't. At least, not to my knowledge. I don't do finance though. What I used was one of the numerous online calculators with a reasonable risk free rate. So yes, the real numbers would be different. But gosh, that's a lot of figuring to do for a message board deal. Also, while I'm knowledgeable, I'm not overly knowledgeable. I know enough to talk with my CPA, and Edward Jones man. That's what I know. And I know the lowest earners at Amazon just got a raise.
Deranged Rhino Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:21 PM, The_Dude said: I don't do finance though. Expand That is quite obvious. ...that it hasn't stopped you from spouting off on (yet another) a topic of which you admit you have a limited understanding of should be a learning experience for you. But it won't be. Because: chucklehead.
KRC Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:21 PM, The_Dude said: You can't. At least, not to my knowledge. I don't do finance though. What I used was one of the numerous online calculators with a reasonable risk free rate. So yes, the real numbers would be different. But gosh, that's a lot of figuring to do for a message board deal. Also, while I'm knowledgeable, I'm not overly knowledgeable. I know enough to talk with my CPA, and Edward Jones man. That's what I know. And I know the lowest earners at Amazon just got a raise. Expand Let me see if I can recap. You stated that Amazon employees are better off with $15/hour because of the lower NPV on stock options, but then stated that the NPV can't be calculated. Do I have that correct?
The_Dude Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:23 PM, Deranged Rhino said: That is quite obvious. ...that it hasn't stopped you from spouting off on (yet another) a topic of which you admit you have a limited understanding of should be a learning experience for you. But it won't be. Because: chucklehead. Expand Ya know I wrote a retort and I just deleted it. Why spend my afternoon arguing with Dale Gribble on the internet...that brings me to your level, and I don't wanna be on your level. Have at it Mr. Shackelford.
DC Tom Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 6:58 PM, KRC said: I wanted him to show the math .Thanks for ruining my day, bastard. ? Expand I figured, which is why I didn't do the math. Figured I'd tee you up by providing the concepts.
The_Dude Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:27 PM, KRC said: Let me see if I can recap. You stated that Amazon employees are better off with $15/hour because of the lower NPV on stock options, but then stated that the NPV can't be calculated. Do I have that correct? Expand No, you don't have that correct. I told you I ballparked my figures because I don't care to do the work needed to make them accurate bc its an internet message board.
Deranged Rhino Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:27 PM, The_Dude said: Ya know I wrote a retort and I just deleted it. Why spend my afternoon arguing with Dale Gribble on the internet...that brings me to your level, and I don't wanna be on your level. Have at it Mr. Shackelford. Expand You have a long ways to go to establish basic credibility and literacy, let alone reach my level, son.
TakeYouToTasker Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:21 PM, The_Dude said: You can't. At least, not to my knowledge. I don't do finance though. What I used was one of the numerous online calculators with a reasonable risk free rate. So yes, the real numbers would be different. But gosh, that's a lot of figuring to do for a message board deal. Also, while I'm knowledgeable, I'm not overly knowledgeable. I know enough to talk with my CPA, and Edward Jones man. That's what I know. And I know the lowest earners at Amazon just got a raise. Expand On 10/5/2018 at 7:23 PM, Deranged Rhino said: That is quite obvious. ...that it hasn't stopped you from spouting off on (yet another) a topic of which you admit you have a limited understanding of should be a learning experience for you. But it won't be. Because: chucklehead. Expand Yup. My favorite part about this, is that he's too stupid to realize how unbelievably stupid he looks right now to everyone who actually understands the subject matter, so he'll keep going. He's the gift who keeps on giving. My personal Miss Abbott. 1
KRC Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:28 PM, The_Dude said: No, you don't have that correct. I told you I ballparked my figures because I don't care to do the work needed to make them accurate bc its an internet message board. Expand So, if I understand you correctly, to make your point you pulled a number out of your ass to say "See, this proves my point. Look at my fabricated number." On 10/5/2018 at 7:28 PM, DC Tom said: I figured, which is why I didn't do the math. Figured I'd tee you up by providing the concepts. Expand I can do my own tee shots, than you very much. ? 1
Deranged Rhino Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:32 PM, KRC said: So, if I understand you correctly, to make your point you pulled a number out of your ass to say "See, this proves my point. Look at my fabricated number." Expand It's amazing, isn't it? And it's like this with him on every topic. Step 1: He gets exposed as being intellectually limited (or full of shite) Step 2: He gets angry and calls other people idiots who don't know anything. Step 3: He realizes he said something stupid, but rather than admit it he retreats behind a "it's just an internet message board" defense. He's not a serious poster. He's a troll who revels in being a troll.
DC Tom Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:09 PM, The_Dude said: No. No, I'm not. I didn't do that at all. Expand Yes, you are. Or you don't understand the concept of "vesting." Or cost basis. Or Amazon. Or...anything, really. 1
Koko78 Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 Dude, you might want to read this before declaring $15 a great thing. http://www.thedailynewsonline.com/bdn06/confer-column-is-amazons-wage-increase-all-its-cracked-up-to-be-20181005 Quote Amazon’s $15 push is at best a half-hearted attempt to improve the financial outcomes of their employees. It’s more of a charade, an excellent marketing ploy that, in the first week, has looked pretty darn effective in endearing the company to the masses. Giving their employees an extra $1 to $2.50 will do little to advance their lot in life if a great number of them are not given full-time hours and benefits. Last month and again this past Saturday, Amazon held job fairs to attempt to hire hundreds of part-time workers for their fulfillment center in Lancaster. The job posting is still open on websites like Indeed where it shows three shifts of availability, each one only 4 hours in length. If someone is working 5 days, that’s a 20-hour week. If someone gets a sixth day (the help wanted ad does say at least one weekend day is mandatory), you’re talking 24 hours a week. Expand 1
DC Tom Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:29 PM, TakeYouToTasker said: Yup. My favorite part about this, is that he's too stupid to realize how unbelievably stupid he looks right now to everyone who actually understands the subject matter, so he'll keep going. He's the gift who keeps on giving. My personal Miss Abbott. Expand Conservatively...Tier 1 Amazon RCUs right now represent about a $11k distribution after taxes. Given the $13/hr rate at Tier 1 after two years, that's a bonus equivalent to almost three years of extra income at a $2 raise. Probably closer to 2.5 years if you factor in VCP. To put it in simple terms even Chucklehead can understand: a worker would have to work three years at $15 to make up for the $13/hr rate plus stock they now get at 2. And the RCU happens annually, not just once. Basically, Bezos just did the equivalent of instituting a stock buyback at 2/3 Amazon's market price.
keepthefaith Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) On 10/5/2018 at 5:48 PM, The_Dude said: Why am I arguing when you're an idiot and I'm right? As of right now the average Amazon worker makes $13 an hour and receives equity of around $2,000 in value annually. If this person works a 40 hour work week their take is $27,040 (less payroll taxes) and then they get $2,000 that they cant do ANYTHING with till it vests. So, when the employee gets the equity of $2k it only has a present value of about $1946. Lump that package together and you're at: $28,986 for the year. Now, same person gets a pay raise to $15 and no annual equity and we're at $31,200. That means even if the employee wants stock THAT THEY'RE BETTER OFF, YOU GODDAMN IDIOT. See, they can then take $2k out of their earnings to buy the stock that they no longer get and they're still coming out better. You're a freaking idiot. You CLEARLY do not work with money -- unless somebody's handing it to you through a window. You're a moron. The math says you're an idiot. As a business owner I gotta tell ya I fear the approaching day when even with financing low income families cant afford my goods and services. Expand Here is what Amazon has learned and why they are making this change IMO. The $12/hour employee doesn't give a **** about stock options, 401K's, etc and there are costs to administering a program for them. At $12/hr or so they are forced to compete with all the other disty companies in the same communities for labor and people that make those low wages will go somewhere else for $1 an hour increase and that causes turnover which is expensive. Since Amazon had only been paying market rates there was no reason for people to be loyal to them (again these workers don't value the stock as maybe they should. Cash in hand better in their world). For $3/hr they are getting their pick of the employees, reducing a benefit cost and it gives them a positive PR announcement. All wins. Edited October 5, 2018 by keepthefaith
TakeYouToTasker Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:36 PM, Deranged Rhino said: It's amazing, isn't it? And it's like this with him on every topic. Step 1: He gets exposed as being intellectually limited (or full of shite) Step 2: He gets angry and calls other people idiots who don't know anything. Step 3: He realizes he said something stupid, but rather than admit it he retreats behind a "it's just an internet message board" defense. He's not a serious poster. He's a troll who revels in being a troll. Expand @KRC One of my personal favorites was a few weeks back he made the claim that Marxism had never resulted in the deaths of millions. Then attempted to redefine Marxism as neo-liberalism. Then made the claim that Stalin's policies in pursuit of dekulakization and bringing the bread basket of Europe into collectivization under Soviet control weren't economic decisions. It was a staggering display of stupidity. I suggest following his posts. He's always good for a laugh. 2
KRC Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:54 PM, TakeYouToTasker said: @KRC One of my personal favorites was a few weeks back he made the claim that Marxism had never resulted in the deaths of millions. Then attempted to redefine Marxism as neo-liberalism. Then made the claim that Stalin's policies in pursuit of dekulakization and bringing the bread basket of Europe into collectivization under Soviet control weren't economic decisions. It was a staggering display of stupidity. I suggest following his posts. He's always good for a laugh. Expand Sounds like a good way to kill a slow Friday. 1
DC Tom Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:54 PM, TakeYouToTasker said: @KRC One of my personal favorites was a few weeks back he made the claim that Marxism had never resulted in the deaths of millions. Then attempted to redefine Marxism as neo-liberalism. Then made the claim that Stalin's policies in pursuit of dekulakization and bringing the bread basket of Europe into collectivization under Soviet control weren't economic decisions. It was a staggering display of stupidity. I suggest following his posts. He's always good for a laugh. Expand I'm still a big fan of his dissertations on naval strategy. But that argument above was truly epic in the breadth and scope of his circular dumbassery. "Name one economic decision that killed millions!" "Okay, here's five." "Those weren't economic, those were genocide. Genocide is never economic." 1
TakeYouToTasker Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:58 PM, KRC said: Sounds like a good way to kill a slow Friday. Expand It really, really is. On 10/5/2018 at 7:49 PM, DC Tom said: Conservatively...Tier 1 Amazon RCUs right now represent about a $11k distribution after taxes. Given the $13/hr rate at Tier 1 after two years, that's a bonus equivalent to almost three years of extra income at a $2 raise. Probably closer to 2.5 years if you factor in VCP. To put it in simple terms even Chucklehead can understand: a worker would have to work three years at $15 to make up for the $13/hr rate plus stock they now get at 2. And the RCU happens annually, not just once. Basically, Bezos just did the equivalent of instituting a stock buyback at 2/3 Amazon's market price. Expand That looks just about right. But it's lost on him.
DC Tom Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 7:58 PM, KRC said: Sounds like a good way to kill a slow Friday. Expand Here's where it starts. It is truly epic. Retatta/homework thread epically stupid. 1
KRC Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 8:04 PM, DC Tom said: Here's where it starts. It is truly epic. Retatta/homework thread epically stupid. Expand That is rarified air. I look forward to reading the thread.
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