finn Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Define "available." Whaley gave up the farm for a wide receiver. He could have done the same for Bortles, who I think will be terrific.
machine gun kelly Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Talk to you guys in the off season on all topics related to free agency and drafts. We still can chat about so many points like looking at final schedules for 7-5 and above teams. We're not the only one that has a tough schedule. Go look at the chargers. PTR, I don't disagree with you. Nix made the mistakes and also made several very good moves.
PromoTheRobot Posted December 2, 2014 Author Posted December 2, 2014 Define "available." Whaley gave up the farm for a wide receiver. He could have done the same for Bortles, who I think will be terrific. Ummm, Bortles went at 3. Whaley also contacted every team about trading up. Only Cleveland bit. So I don't know how the Bills trade for Bortles unless they gave up a lot more. Plus how do you know for sure Bortles is going to be that good?
finn Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 "Know for sure" is a pretty high standard for any pick, let alone a quarterback. I just think--guess, believe, based on his overall performance so far--Bortles will be good. My beef with Whaley is that he panicked and picked Manuel, a project at best, a bust at worst, with a first-round pick that could have used for a player (guard, anyone?) or used in a deal for a very high pick the following year (Bortles). You can defend him by saying his job was on the line, but that's hardly a defense. He did not need to choose a qb in that weak class. He should have bided his time.
K-9 Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Define "available." Whaley gave up the farm for a wide receiver. He could have done the same for Bortles, who I think will be terrific. I predict Watkins will be a far better WR than Bortles is a QB in this league. And I don't think it'll be close. GO BILLS!!!
Formerly Allan in MD Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 When I look at what Whaley has done I'd say he has missed in three areas from a player perspective, whether it be draft or FA: QB OG TE At QB I think the OP's point is well taken. Whaley took a shot at least with EJ. All the pundits had Geno as the top QB that year. Whaley passed on him...good. Could he have waited another year and taken Bortles? Maybe. That would be about it and is far from a sure thing. I don't see FA's out there doing anything. At OG it is hard to tell if he whiffed in the draft, things will take time, or it is simply a meter of poor coaching. Some of this could be on Whaley. I view TE as similar to QB in that we don't know what was really there. He did say he liked Ebron.....meh. I'll take Sammy. Given that there are only 3 positions where questions remain on our roster I would say Whaley deserves a ton of credit. It is too bad that one of the three is QB. The big question about Whaley is what hand did he truly have in hiring this abomination of a coach. Was it Buddy? Was it the purse strings? Was it Whaley? It is like the reverse of that famous quote from Parcells. Whaley can get the best ingredients in the world, but if he hires a chef from Burger King, the restaurant is going to flop. So cornerback is not a need. Right! Both Gilmore and McKelvin need to be replaced. Neither would be starting on a Bowl bound team. Perhaps Williams is one in-house solution.
Manther Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 I remain amazed at the fact that so few QB's from college can transition to the pro game. For some time now I have advocated the following: - every NFL team should have to carry one QB prospect on their PS -here is one that is out there but maybe not - have a single round in the draft where every team is required to select a QB prospect who may fill the slot above - I know this is a crazy idea but what the heck just throwing it out there. No
PromoTheRobot Posted December 2, 2014 Author Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) "Know for sure" is a pretty high standard for any pick, let alone a quarterback. I just think--guess, believe, based on his overall performance so far--Bortles will be good. My beef with Whaley is that he panicked and picked Manuel, a project at best, a bust at worst, with a first-round pick that could have used for a player (guard, anyone?) or used in a deal for a very high pick the following year (Bortles). You can defend him by saying his job was on the line, but that's hardly a defense. He did not need to choose a qb in that weak class. He should have bided his time. Well we all know what the reaction would have been if Whaley/Nix didn't draft a QB in 2013 and stuck with Fitz. As for Bortles I think he has looked good at times but he's not franchise quality yet. Which begs the question, would we as a fan base ever be patient enough with any QB to develop? Edited December 2, 2014 by PromoTheRobot
Manther Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Define "available." Whaley gave up the farm for a wide receiver. He could have done the same for Bortles, who I think will be terrific. The Jags wanted Bottles bad. We would have had to trade up to #2. That means St. Louis would have wanted to trade back AND we would have had to give up more to get to #2 than #4.
finn Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Well we all know what the reaction would have been if Whaley/Nix didn't draft a QB in 2013 and stuck with Fitz. As for Bortles I think he has looked good at times but he's not franchise quality yet. Which begs the question, would we as a fan base ever be patient enough with any QB to develop? Do you mean patience for a project QB? Fans were patient with Kelly (who did have two years in the AFL), and i think they would have been patient with Dalton and Tannehill, both of whom have showed a lot more than Manuel. I have a pretty high opinion of Bills fans as a whole; they are pretty knowledgeable. For example, they know the value of a good offensive line, obviously far more than the current management. I'm not sure agree that fans would have reacted badly by keeping Fitz, if only because cutting him meant eating his huge salary for two years. I think cutting him only made Nix and Whaley's original mistake (signing him to a mega-contract) worse, as others have pointed out. Why pay Orton AND Fitz? No, I disagree with PTR. Even excusing him from the Fitz fiasco, I think Whaley has fumbled the QB situation here. And now he has fewer options than ever, with no first-round pick.
Fixxxer Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 If Coughlin is fired in New York I would trade for Nassib.
PromoTheRobot Posted December 2, 2014 Author Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) Do you mean patience for a project QB? Fans were patient with Kelly (who did have two years in the AFL), and i think they would have been patient with Dalton and Tannehill, both of whom have showed a lot more than Manuel. I have a pretty high opinion of Bills fans as a whole; they are pretty knowledgeable. For example, they know the value of a good offensive line, obviously far more than the current management. I'm not sure agree that fans would have reacted badly by keeping Fitz, if only because cutting him meant eating his huge salary for two years. I think cutting him only made Nix and Whaley's original mistake (signing him to a mega-contract) worse, as others have pointed out. Why pay Orton AND Fitz? No, I disagree with PTR. Even excusing him from the Fitz fiasco, I think Whaley has fumbled the QB situation here. And now he has fewer options than ever, with no first-round pick. Kelly in the AFL? I must disagree with your take on sticking with Fitz. There would have been a full scale march on OBD with pitchforks and torches if Fitz was brought back as starter. Edited December 2, 2014 by PromoTheRobot
Buffalo Barbarian Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 WGR was discussing Whaley's tenure at GM this morning, citing his "failure" in addressing the QB situation as his biggest black mark. Yet no one who chastises Whaley can say who should be QB for the Bills, only that what we have isn't good enough. I say there is no QB that was available in the last two drafts our available in free agency that would meet the standard of play we are demanding at QB. Sure there are plenty of QBs that you might think are good, or who might be good eventually. But there is no QB in the last two years who was available to Whaley that is franchise caliber. So does out even make sense to complain about the QB situation when there wasn't a realistic option? It's like being wrong on a test where all the answers are wrong. Russel Wilson/ thread
GunnerBill Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 Russell Wilson is not on Whaley. I don't think there has been a Quarterback available in either draft or FA since Whaley took the reign who would come in and be an immediate upgrade at the position on what we have - to that end I agree with the OP. I also agree with him that sticking with Fitz was only an option in theory in 2013. The fanbase wanted him gone desperately. For a new coach to come in and say "we are sticking with Fitz" would have been career suicide on day 1. I didn't think there was a Quarterback in last year's draft genuinely worth a top 10 pick, but if I was picking one to fall in love with I'd have gone the same way as the Jaguars went at #3 and taken Bortles. He has had an up and down rookie year and I don't think our production from that position this year would have been any better with Bortles in there than with EJ/Orton. He could be something down the road though. As for the other 3 drafted early last year - I think they pretty much went in the right kind of territory (lates 1st / early 2nd). Bridgewater has not looked very impressive to me so far, aside from that first start where he got out of the pocket and made plays with his legs and Carr started well but has regressed pretty quickly as more and more tape on him emerges. That is partly being a rookie on a bad team, but to suggest at this stage that he has shown lots more than EJ is a misrepresentation. I think sometimes fans on here don't see the low-lights of other QBs - just the good bits. If they went and watched the game in condensed form and watched every throw they would see a lot of the same mistakes that they hammer EJ for - taking checkdowns without getting through all his progressions, some inaccuracy from the pocket and a lack of willingness to try and throw receivers open. That isn't to say Carr or Bridgewater can't be better long term than EJ..... just that they haven't done anything to blow him out of the water so far. I'm actually intrigued to see Manziel get a shot. My doubts are on record but I thought even given the back up defense he looked the sharpest thrower of the three QBs I saw throw on Sunday. He was always a bit of a boom or bust pick. I will be interested to see how it goes for him. I definitely think he will be in a better position to succeed than he would have been starting in week 1.
Coach Tuesday Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 The Bills drafted Ross Cockrell over Zach Mettenberger. There's just one example that comes to mind.
GG Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 The Bills drafted Ross Cockrell over Zach Mettenberger. There's just one example that comes to mind. You can never have enough 4th round CBs.
papazoid Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 so, to summarize..... #1- no matter where the bills pick in the draft, there will be a better player at another position that should be picked instead of a QB. #2- all the possible free agent QB's in 2015 are garbage. #3- it's not whaley's fault. (laffin)
thebandit27 Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 #1- no matter where the bills pick in the draft, there will be a better player at another position that should be picked instead of a QB. I don't know who said this, but I can speak for myself and say that it's not what I said or meant. I do, however, agree with the idea that it's ill-advised to simply draft a QB for the sake of drafting one. Now, if you like a QB, and think he can be a franchise guy, and you don't currently have a franchise guy, then yes, you should take him ASAP so as not to miss out. That's kind of what they did with EJ, and so far it hasn't worked. #2- all the possible free agent QB's in 2015 are garbage. I know for a fact that nobody said that. In fact, I've seen mentioned (in this thread and others) names like Bradford, Sanchez, and Matt Moore as FA possibilities. #3- it's not whaley's fault. Debatable I guess. I place the onus on Whaley for not having a better backup plan to EJ coming into this year. Beyond that, I find no fault with his approach since he's been given the reigns. He needed to draft a QB, he identified the guy with the highest upside, who they felt could potentially be the guy, and they took him (whilst garnering an extra pick that turned into Kiko by the way). Nobody even remotely decent has emerged from the 2013 class, so it's not like he made a critical mistake there. I guess I'm not sure what your point is...if you have a take, feel free to provide it. The post above appears to be an effort to mis-characterize some other points for no obvious reason.
GunnerBill Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 so, to summarize..... #1- no matter where the bills pick in the draft, there will be a better player at another position that should be picked instead of a QB. #2- all the possible free agent QB's in 2015 are garbage. #3- it's not whaley's fault. (laffin) i know this is partly in jest.. because other than #3 I'm not sure any of those points have been made, however, I think it is possible that there are some good options out there this year. I'd 100% kick the tyres on either Bradford or Eli should they become available, I think both are an upgrade. I'd be interested in bringing Jake Locker in too. I'm not so sure he is an immediate upgrade but there have been a couple of spells of consistent play among the injuries and the disappointments and I think the Bills have to go into OTAs and mini camp at least with an open mind as to next year's starter. Let EJ compete, let Kyle compete (if he stays) but have another viable option in the mix too. Sitting station with EJ and Kyle is not acceptable as far as I am concerned. If they beat another guy out fair enough but they can't enter camp with those two and Tuel.
GG Posted December 2, 2014 Posted December 2, 2014 I guess I'm not sure what your point is...if you have a take, feel free to provide it. The post above appears to be an effort to mis-characterize some other points for no obvious reason. My guess is that it was an attempt to counter the perpetual excuse machine, which is starting to get oiled for the 2015 season.
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