A Few Thoughts About The Game, in no particular order.....

[John Adams]

I don't care about Gilmore. He's "fine." There's no need to want him gone--he just didn't live up to the hype that he'd be a true shutdown corner. The Bills problems are on the other side of the ball.

 

I wonder what the rushing yards average is from the shotgun. It must suck. The Bills appear awful from the gun. I noticed it last year especially with EJ. This year it's the same thing. The Bills were in shotgun seemingly 90% of the game. In the 4th quarter was the only time they weren't.

 

Among other things, shotgun takes away all flexibility and creativity in the running game. Play action is virtually nonexistent as are any kind of pitch or roll out (not that Orton is a rollout QB). But it limits the offense terribly. This is one of my biggest Hacket peeves. Put the QB under center.

 

Also, I am damn glad Manziel didn't come in earlier. The energy he brought to the Browns was real. He had the bad play on the fumble-TD-reversed but I did not like the way he was playing at all. Good luck to the teams that might face him in the coming weeks.

Edited December 1, 2014 by John Adams

[thebandit27]

I don't care about Gilmore. He's "fine." There's no need to want him gone--he just didn't live up to the hype that he'd be a true shutdown corner. The Bills problems are on the other side of the ball.

 

I wonder what the rushing yards average is from the shotgun. It must suck. The Bills appear awful from the gun. I noticed it last year especially with EJ. This year it's the same thing. The Bills were in shotgun seemingly 90% of the game. In the 4th quarter was the only time they weren't.

 

Among other things, shotgun takes away all flexibility and creativity in the running game. Play action is virtually nonexistent as are any kind of pitch or roll out (not that Orton is a rollout QB). But it limits the offense terribly. This is one of my biggest Hacket peeves. Put the QB under center.

 

Also, I am damn glad Manziel didn't come in earlier. The energy he brought to the Browns was real. He had the bad play on the fumble-TD-reversed but I did not like the way he was playing at all. Good luck to the teams that might face him in the coming weeks.

 

Agreed on the shotgun. My problem with it is that it forces the RB to pause and start from a stand-still. At least when the QB has to turn and hand him the ball he's got somewhat of a running start.

 

As to Manziel, the biggest contribution to his success was Buffalo's 3 best DLmen being on the bench. As soon as they came back in, he did nothing. I don't mean to discredit the emotional boost he provided; I just think there's a lot to be said for not having to stare down the pursuit of Mario, Kyle, and Marcell.

[Maddog69]

Yep. This weekly post is the single best post on this board. Delighted it is back Bill.

Agree with this 100%

 

Thanks for posting, Bill. I always enjoy reading your thoughts on the game.

 

[JohnC]

 

I look to Bill (the OP) as a great example. He's never been a fan of the Gilmore pick, and has been outspoken about his general dislike for Gilmore's play. If he's able to view it objectively and compliment him, that should tell folks a lot.

 

Bill goes berserk when CBs and RBs are drafted in the first round. If you think he is biased against Gilmore then bring up his name to Badol. Make sure you are out of the way win the ferocity of his response sprays spittle all over the place.

 

I consider Gilmore to be in the top third of the CB rankings. (My personal ranking!} If he had better ball skills he would be an elite CB. That's my opinion that obviously goes against the crowd.

[thebandit27]

Bill goes berserk when CBs and RBs are drafted in the first round. If you think he is biased against Gilmore then bring up his name to Badol. Make sure you are out of the way win the ferocity of his response sprays spittle all over the place.

 

I consider Gilmore to be in the top third of the CB rankings. (My personal ranking!} If he had better ball skills he would be an elite CB. That's my opinion that obviously goes against the crowd.

 

I know both Bill and BADOL--at least I know their board personas.

 

Interestingly enough, I've spoken, at length, to both about Gilmore. BADOL and I even had a PM chat about him.

 

What's funny is that our opinions on the player really aren't that far apart: he's a very good cover man whose play on the football isn't good enough. I think the only deviation is that those dudes believe that a guy drafted in the top 10 should be a de facto shutdown CB. My opinion on the matter is that there really is no such thing as a shutdown CB in today's NFL. Witness Joe Haden being out-fought by Robert Woods, Darelle Revis getting torched by Jordy Nelson, and Patrick Peterson suffering repeated roastings by Julio Jones.

[JohnC]

I know both Bill and BADOL--at least I know their board personas.

 

Interestingly enough, I've spoken, at length, to both about Gilmore. BADOL and I even had a PM chat about him.

 

What's funny is that our opinions on the player really aren't that far apart: he's a very good cover man whose play on the football isn't good enough. I think the only deviation is that those dudes believe that a guy drafted in the top 10 should be a de facto shutdown CB. My opinion on the matter is that there really is no such thing as a shutdown CB in today's NFL. Witness Joe Haden being out-fought by Robert Woods, Darelle Revis getting torched by Jordy Nelson, and Patrick Peterson suffering repeated roastings by Julio Jones.

 

I don't put Haden in the same lofty category of Revis and Peterson. What a lot of critics don't factor in when assessing CBs is that the NFL has altered the rules that shackle the defenders ' ability to cover the receivers. This year the rulings have not only handicapped the defenders but have made the game difficult to watch. The calls against incidental contact are not only ridiculous.but they kill the flow of the game. Balance and common sense are lost in the officiating of the game.

 

The thing about Gilmore is that he was drafted almost exactly where he was ranked. And people still complain about that selection. If you get a long term starter from a little higher than a mid-first round pick you have made not only a good pick but also a good value pick.

Edited December 1, 2014 by JohnC

[Coach Tuesday]

I know both Bill and BADOL--at least I know their board personas.

 

Interestingly enough, I've spoken, at length, to both about Gilmore. BADOL and I even had a PM chat about him.

 

What's funny is that our opinions on the player really aren't that far apart: he's a very good cover man whose play on the football isn't good enough. I think the only deviation is that those dudes believe that a guy drafted in the top 10 should be a de facto shutdown CB. My opinion on the matter is that there really is no such thing as a shutdown CB in today's NFL. Witness Joe Haden being out-fought by Robert Woods, Darelle Revis getting torched by Jordy Nelson, and Patrick Peterson suffering repeated roastings by Julio Jones.

 

My thing with Gilmore is that he seems to lack some spatial awareness that causes both his ball skills to suffer, on the one hand, and his pre-snap lineup/depth to suffer, on the other hand. I think the coaches actually give him a fair amount of discretion in terms of how much cushion to give WRs off of the snap (except on certain blitzes and pressure packages), and he has not yet mastered this element of his game. There was a third down play yesterday where he cushioned Gordon too much, proceeded to give up the first down, and then pounded his fists in frustration about it - he realized he gave up too much depth pre-snap. He seems to do this quite a bit. He either underestimates his own speed, or the opposing WR's speed (or both), perhaps. I'm not sure how best to explain it and maybe some of you with more X's and O's chops can explain it to me. But I think it's related to the poor ball skills and has to do with a lack of spacial awareness. Something like that.

[JohnC]

My thing with Gilmore is that he seems to lack some spatial awareness that causes both his ball skills to suffer, on the one hand, and his pre-snap lineup/depth to suffer, on the other hand. I think the coaches actually give him a fair amount of discretion in terms of how much cushion to give WRs off of the snap (except on certain blitzes and pressure packages), and he has not yet mastered this element of his game. There was a third down play yesterday where he cushioned Gordon too much, proceeded to give up the first down, and then pounded his fists in frustration about it - he realized he gave up too much depth pre-snap. He seems to do this quite a bit. He either underestimates his own speed, or the opposing WR's speed (or both), perhaps. I'm not sure how best to explain it and maybe some of you with more X's and O's chops can explain it to me. But I think it's related to the poor ball skills and has to do with a lack of spacial awareness. Something like that.

 

Gilmore does have good coverage skills but he does not have high end ball skills i.e. reaction to the ball. He, like McKelvin, is usually around the ball.

 

With your observations about his coverage of Gordon you have to remember that Gordon is a big time talent who can make big plays. If he wasn't such a knucklehead he would get more recogniztion as an elite receiver in the league. In yesterday's game Gilmore was smart in keeping him for the most part in front of him. When covering such a talented receiver you can't expect a total shutdown. If this caliber of receiver is being contained without making the dynamic big pay then the defender is doing his job.

Edited December 1, 2014 by JohnC

[thebandit27]

I don't put Haden in the same lofty category of Revis and Peterson. What a lot of critics don't factor in when assessing CBs is that the NFL has altered the rules that shackle the defenders ' ability to cover the receivers. This year the rulings have not only handicapped the defenders but have made the game difficult to watch. The calls against incidental contact are not only ridiculous.but they kill the flow of the game. Balance and common sense are lost in the officiating of the game. The thing about Gilmore is that he was drafted almost exactly where he was ranked. And people still complain about that selection. If you get a long term starter from a little higher than a mid-first round pick you have made not only a good pick but also a good value pick.

 

I pretty much agree with all of that.

 

My thing with Gilmore is that he seems to lack some spatial awareness that causes both his ball skills to suffer, on the one hand, and his pre-snap lineup/depth to suffer, on the other hand. I think the coaches actually give him a fair amount of discretion in terms of how much cushion to give WRs off of the snap (except on certain blitzes and pressure packages), and he has not yet mastered this element of his game. There was a third down play yesterday where he cushioned Gordon too much, proceeded to give up the first down, and then pounded his fists in frustration about it - he realized he gave up too much depth pre-snap. He seems to do this quite a bit. He either underestimates his own speed, or the opposing WR's speed (or both), perhaps. I'm not sure how best to explain it and maybe some of you with more X's and O's chops can explain it to me. But I think it's related to the poor ball skills and has to do with a lack of spacial awareness. Something like that.

 

Pretty accurate IMO.

 

The best way I can describe his deficiency is that he seems not to trust his technique. He drives on the ball really well, and he seems to react just fine to WRs going into/coming out of their breaks. I mean, the close and ball-play he made on Mike Wallace in the Miami Thursday game (which was erroneously called as DPI) was as good a play as I've seen a CB make. He had outside responsibility, kept a 10-yard cushion, and still was able to break on the upfield shoulder of his man to break up the play. Seems like when he reacts, he does absolutely fine. When he thinks too much he gets himself in trouble. I'm hoping that his feel for the game will continue to develop, as he really does have outstanding cover skills.

[norton20]

Apparently Watkins was hurt vs Browns (and may well still be dinged from groin injury before that):

 

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2014/12/01/sammy-watkins-suffered-hip-injury-browns/

 

I know it has been said a few thousand times before but our guards are terrible and watching them try to block perfectly set up screen passes is depressing. They have zero mobility. Those plays should go for more than 6 yards.

[The Frankish Reich]

I don't care about Gilmore. He's "fine." There's no need to want him gone--he just didn't live up to the hype that he'd be a true shutdown corner. The Bills problems are on the other side of the ball.

 

I wonder what the rushing yards average is from the shotgun. It must suck. The Bills appear awful from the gun. I noticed it last year especially with EJ. This year it's the same thing. The Bills were in shotgun seemingly 90% of the game. In the 4th quarter was the only time they weren't.

 

Among other things, shotgun takes away all flexibility and creativity in the running game. Play action is virtually nonexistent as are any kind of pitch or roll out (not that Orton is a rollout QB). But it limits the offense terribly. This is one of my biggest Hacket peeves. Put the QB under center.

 

Also, I am damn glad Manziel didn't come in earlier. The energy he brought to the Browns was real. He had the bad play on the fumble-TD-reversed but I did not like the way he was playing at all. Good luck to the teams that might face him in the coming weeks.

I often hear the sports pundits saying things like "to run the ball effectively requires a commitment to the run." I've always been skeptical, but ... watching the Broncos over the last month kind of proves the point. The running game had faded into irrelevance. And then what happened? They added an extra blocker to the already re-worked O line, and they started playing with a mission to establish the run. Last 2 weeks, CJ Anderson (a third stringer coming into the season) has 160 yards in each game. And that's with Peyton still working out of the pistol/shotgun virtually every play. No, we're not the Broncos on offense, so it's not as easy to do (establishing the run is easier when the D still has to be preoccupied with the likes of D. Thomas, Sanders, and Welker, and Orton is not Peyton), but the Broncos have made me a believer in the whole commitment to the run thing.

[Bill from NYC]

 

 

I know both Bill and BADOL--at least I know their board personas.

 

Interestingly enough, I've spoken, at length, to both about Gilmore. BADOL and I even had a PM chat about him.

 

What's funny is that our opinions on the player really aren't that far apart: he's a very good cover man whose play on the football isn't good enough. I think the only deviation is that those dudes believe that a guy drafted in the top 10 should be a de facto shutdown CB. My opinion on the matter is that there really is no such thing as a shutdown CB in today's NFL. Witness Joe Haden being out-fought by Robert Woods, Darelle Revis getting torched by Jordy Nelson, and Patrick Peterson suffering repeated roastings by Julio Jones.

If there is no such thing as a shutdown corner, why draft one with a top 10 pick, this on a team with serious quarterback problems?

The rule changes have completely revolutionized this sport. What IS interesting is that the most important positions remain the same.

NFL football teams need a better than average QB, pass rushers and blocking in order to win football games.

Defensive backs are of little importance compared to the above.

And btw, Searcy and Robey are making play after play. Isn't it interesting to note where they were drafted as compared to the rest of our secondary?

[truth on hold]

 

If there is no such thing as a shutdown corner, why draft one with a top 10 pick, this on a team with serious quarterback problems?

The rule changes have completely revolutionized this sport. What IS interesting is that the most important positions remain the same.

NFL football teams need a better than average QB, pass rushers and blocking in order to win football games.

Defensive backs are of little importance compared to the above.

And btw, Searcy and Robey are making play after play. Isn't it interesting to note where they were drafted as compared to the rest of our secondary?

By that logic then we shouldnt draft DL in Rd1, look where Kyle Williams was drafted! You get good players where you can. Had teams known how good Richard Sherman was you really think he's not a top 10 pick? Lol OK. You think its a coincidence the team with the best secondary also won the super bowl last year? Rule changes don't invalidate DBs, if anything greater passing increases their importance. Also what shouldnt be lost is that quality secondary also play a big role in run support.

[Bill from NYC]

 

By that logic then we shouldnt draft DL in Rd1, look where Kyle Williams was drafted! You get good players where you can. Had teams known how good Richard Sherman was you really think he's not a top 10 pick? Lol OK. You think its a coincidence the team with the best secondary also won the super bowl last year? Rule changes don't invalidate DBs, if anything greater passing increases their importance. Also what shouldnt be lost is that quality secondary also play a big role in run support.

 

OK....teams frequently line up in 4 or 5 wide formations. Let's draft defensive backs in round 1 instead of pass rushers. We can cover them all with first round, or perhaps top 10 picks.

Sounds like a plan, right?

Lets forget about QBs, LTs and pass rushing DEs. They are a dime a dozen and matter less than the aptly titled "secondary."

Wait.....we did this and haven't made the playoffs in this century.

Never mind.

[truth on hold]

 

 

OK....teams frequently line up in 4 or 5 wide formations. Let's draft defensive backs in round 1 instead of pass rushers. We can cover them all with first round, or perhaps top 10 picks.

Sounds like a plan, right?

Lets forget about QBs, LTs and pass rushing DEs. They are a dime a dozen and matter less than the aptly titled "secondary."

Wait.....we did this and haven't made the playoffs in this century.

Never mind.

I never said any of that, simply responding to your heavily biased view that a)dB's are not important given rules changes and b) they can all easily be had in late rounds. And since it was so easily dismissed its no wonder you can't respond directly to it.

Edited December 1, 2014 by JTSP

[34-78-83]

As much as I have loved the play making of Searcy, Robey and the like (a credit to them) they are not covering #1 and #2 wideouts in most situations throughout a game.

[Bill from NYC]

 

I never said any of that, simply responding to your heavily biased view that a)dB's are not important given rules changes and b) they can all easily be had in late rounds. And since it was so easily dismissed its no wonder you can't respond directly to it.

 

I'm sorry. I don't mean to sound dismissive. OK? In fact, I apologize for sounding as such.

 

I ask you why, in your opinion, do the Bills have a better record this season.

 

I think that its primarily because of the pass rush. Next (imho) would be because Orton isn't as painfully bad as Manuel. I really don't think that its because of the secondary.

 

Put a top 15 qb and better blocking on the Buffalo Bills and they are superbowl contenders but of course, this is simply mho.

 

And btw thanks for the dialogue.

[JohnC]

OK....teams frequently line up in 4 or 5 wide formations. Let's draft defensive backs in round 1 instead of pass rushers. We can cover them all with first round, or perhaps top 10 picks.

Sounds like a plan, right?

Lets forget about QBs, LTs and pass rushing DEs. They are a dime a dozen and matter less than the aptly titled "secondary."

Wait.....we did this and haven't made the playoffs in this century.

Never mind.

 

If you want to criticize the Bills don't do so because of the positions they draft, criticize them for their evaluations in general. Russell Wilson was bypassed for Graham. Whitner was not a draft mistake because he was a safety but because he was simply overdrafted as a player. If Earl Thomas is drafted at a high point it has little to do with the position he plays and more to do with his talent level.

 

We have been through this argument many times over with little resolution. From my perspective Gilmore, regardless of his position, was selected where he was ranked. He is going to be a long time starter at one of the most difficult positions in the game. I have no complaints about his selection. For you it is a constant source of irritation. You and Badol are soul-mates on this topic.

 

The Bills drafted a qb in the first round last year. Is it a hit or a miss? As it stands I am less than confident about that selection. Not because of the position which obviously is important, but because there is a good chance that they simply misjudged the talent.

 

Now I have a greater difference with you over the importance of the CB position because of the aggravating changing of the rules of the no touching policy for CBs.. Because it is even more difficult to cover receivers there is a greater need for a higher end talent to contain (not stop) the receivers.

 

If I really wanted to irritate you I would bring up the Spiller topic. But I won't because I am a considerate and empathetic person.

[Bill from NYC]

As much as I have loved the play making of Searcy, Robey and the like (a credit to them) they are not covering #1 and #2 wideouts in most situations throughout a game.

 

You are right, but in SOME situations they are. Teams move receivers around these days. It isn't like Mel Blount covering a teams best receiver on every play.

My point is that I will take pass rushers over DBs every day. And for that matter qbs over rbs.

 

It's a different game today.

[Bill from NYC]

Now I have a greater difference with you over the importance of the CB position because of the aggravating changing of the rules of the no touching policy for CBs.. Because it is even more difficult to cover receivers there is a greater need for a higher end talent to contain (not stop) the receivers.

 

If I really wanted to irritate you I would bring up the Spiller topic. But I won't because I am a considerate and empathetic person.

 

John, you have nowhere to go wrt Spiller. And btw, I think that the combo of Robey and Searcy have won us as many football games as Spiller and Whitner (top 10 picks) or more.

Our front 4 is what might get us to or even over .500 this year, coupled with somewhat respectable qb play.

This of course is strictly my opinion, and it is always great to hear from you.