Just for clarification, Hackett still calls plays

[Kelly the Dog]

I have been curious myself in the last couple weeks about whether or not Marrone took over control or more control of the offense. There have even been some rumors that a week or two ago, Marrone took over the play calling.

 

I hadn't had a chance to listen to or watch the post game interviews after the Jets game until yesterday but Kyle Orton specifically said that "Nate called a very good game." in his post game interview. I very much doubt the players were instructed to say things like that, and knowing the kind of no bull **** guy that Orton is, he would never have said it like that, he would have simply said "the coaches called" or "we called"...

 

In his defense, I think Hackett did call a pretty good game. I'm still in 100% disagreement with the foundation of this offense though.

 

I understand the idea that how can you complain when the team wins 38-3? And I'm not complaining. They did great. I think Hackett called a very good game, and Orton played well, and Woods was phenomenal.

 

I also think that we looked good because Woods was phenomenal, and it reinforces the idea that this is the wrong offense and not the right offense. Our playmakers are receivers. All five or six of them. Our weakness Is our TEs. Two out of three of them. This game showed why we should trust our playmakers more than it showed we are running the right offense. The earlier Jet game was very similar. The majority of our biggest plays were not from the TE and bunch formations they were from the 3 WR and more spread formations. Not all of the best plays, but the majority of them.

 

I'm not saying we should never run them but it seems like we run about 2/3 of our plays from the 2-3TE and bunch formations and 1/3 from the 3 WR formations, and if we just swapped them, we would be substantially better. The offense doesn't need to be revamped, just the theory and formations. I think it has been proven over and over and over this season.

 

I will wait until the end of the season to make a personal decision about whether I believe that Marrone or Hackett should stay or go. It could go either way. I do believe, right now, that Marrone's decision on this offense is the one thing that has kept them from being closer to the playoffs.

 

Players have to make plays and you can say, as I have, that Orton needs to make throws in the Miami and Cheifs game. And if he makes a couple of them, we win. That's true. But he's also made all kinds of throws in different games that allowed us to win. Woods making 9 circus catches allowed us to win. Sammy being Sammy allowed us to win earlier games.

 

IMO, a fundamental flaw in offensive thinking is the single biggest reason we are not 7-4 or 8-3 and really in the hunt.

 

Marrone deserves a lot of credit for other stuff. This team plays hard. He's personally and partially responsible for Dareus being the player he is this season. He hired Schwartz and Pepper Johnson and wouldn't let Henderson go. He kept Crossman. We are a decent team. But the thing that separates decent coaches from good coaches is not being perfect, it's being 75-85% correct in your big and little decisions and not 65-75%. Right now he is a tad closer to the latter than the former. And to me, it's solely because of the offensive philosophy considering the team that Whaley has put together.

[Rubes]

I get that, and I don't completely disagree. But do you think one of the reasons we may utilize TEs more than we might otherwise is because of the underwhelming play of the offensive line?

[Dan]

I completely and emphatically agree with everything you've observed, as well.

 

The one thing holding this team back is the offense, that much is clear. And, yes, we can stand to improve the QB, TE, and Guard positons. But, the offense as a whole is underperforming based on the overall talent and resouces that have been put into it. IMO, largely because of situational playcalling and the overall design and "adaptability" of our offense. The coaches are responsible for those aspects of the game, not the players.

 

Let me be clear, I like many of the things Marrone has done and am by no means saying he should be fired. However, the offensive disfunction is squarely on the shoulders of the Offensive Coordinator who has had 2 years to figure it out. How many more years do you allow him to figure out how to do his job? I think Marrone has the toughest decision of his tenure upcoming, and it likely will seal his fate and ours for the next several years.

[Deranged Rhino]

[NoSaint]

I get that, and I don't completely disagree. But do you think one of the reasons we may utilize TEs more than we might otherwise is because of the underwhelming play of the offensive line?

 

Do you think is bringing in more poor blocking big bodies and keeping the defenses best 7 big guys on the field helps our line?

[chris heff]

Experianced coordinators are really important. Just look at what Schwartz has done with this D. The D is much better than last year. Hackett is in over his head. In the KC game and Miami game Orton had the same issues Manuel got benched for. Inaccurate, missing open receivers, inability to score TDs in red zone. Two coaches were brought in to help Hackett, but not much has changed. Can anyone explain the forth and one formation with Dixon as FB and Watkins at TB? Have they ever used that formation?

 

What happened to the fast paced offense? These guys tried to make a raw rookie run the fast pace, but not a ten year veteran? I'm not saying they should run it, but what is their plan? What is this offense?

[YoloinOhio]

Experianced coordinators are really important. Just look at what Schwartz has done with this D. The D is much better than last year. Hackett is in over his head. In the KC game and Miami game Orton had the same issues Manuel got benched for. Inaccurate, missing open receivers, inability to score TDs in red zone. Two coaches were brought in to help Hackett, but not much has changed. Can anyone explain the forth and one formation with Dixon as FB and Watkins at TB? Have they ever used that formation?

 

What happened to the fast paced offense? These guys tried to make a raw rookie run the fast pace, but not a ten year veteran? I'm not saying they should run it, but what is their plan? What is this offense?

some experienced OCs really suck too. Some inexperienced ones are really good. Just sayin. If you don't like Hackett, it may not be due to his inexperience. He just might not be very good.

[3rdand12]

some experienced OCs really suck too. Some inexperienced ones are really good. Just sayin. If you don't like Hackett, it may not be due to his inexperience. He just might not be very good.

What has driven me nutso is the poor player play in the first half of the season on offense.

Looked like they had never played together before. Timing was terrible for t OFF and lots of penalties against the O it seemed ?

Since Urbik i back they seem a bit more cohesive.

But it has seemed the Offense has rarely looked comfortable.

But i dont know what the issues are. If the Offense continues to improve as far as play calling and execution till the end of the season then i will really be torn about Nate and friends. I mean heck The Mike Williams and Kraig Urbik thing still has me wondering wtf are they thinking at OBD?

Hackett may not be that good or he is trying to run something more complex than we see and its not fitting yet.

They are not very good yet..

Lets see how they shake out against that Cleveland defense. Bet its conservative again though

[YoloinOhio]

What has driven me nutso is the poor player play in the first half of the season on offense.

Looked like they had never played together before. Timing was terrible for t OFF and lots of penalties against the O it seemed ?

Since Urbik i back they seem a bit more cohesive.

But it has seemed the Offense has rarely looked comfortable.

But i dont know what the issues are. If the Offense continues to improve as far as play calling and execution till the end of the season then i will really be torn about Nate and friends. I mean heck The Mike Williams and Kraig Urbik thing still has me wondering wtf are they thinking at OBD?

Hackett may not be that good or he is trying to run something more complex than we see and its not fitting yet.

They are not very good yet..

Lets see how they shake out against that Cleveland defense. Bet its conservative again though

the intriguing part of that is how well they know that defense. And while you could say the same for Pettine/O'Neil, I think their D look more similar to what we ran last year than our O does. Mainly due to Orton and Sammy. It just changes the way the offense goes than with a EJ and Stevie. Way different types of players in the QB and WR1 roles. I'm not saying it's great. Just different to prep for. Edited November 28, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[Kelly the Dog]

I get that, and I don't completely disagree. But do you think one of the reasons we may utilize TEs more than we might otherwise is because of the underwhelming play of the offensive line?

No. I honestly don't. One of the reasons they have problems is because of blitzes. One of the major reasons we have trouble running is because teams have an extra LB in the box instead of a DB. Another major reason is that safeties play in the box against us. There is no room to run. All of that is helped by more spread formations more of the time. Our WR happen to be pretty good blockers. Our RBs strengths are not patience and being able to pick holes, it is the home run threat. That is least utilized in 2-3 TE formations and best utilized with less guys at the LOS.

 

Again I'm not saying we should just abandon it. I'm saying that 10 more plays out of 3 wide and 10 less plays out of 2-3 TE and bunch formations at the line per game, and we score more points and utilize our best players.

[3rdand12]

the intriguing part of that is how well they know that defense. And while you could say the same for Pettine/O'Neil, I think their D look more similar to what we ran last year than our O does. Mainly due to Orton and Sammy. It just changes the way the offense goes than with a EJ and Stevie. Way different types of players in the QB and WR1 roles. I'm not saying it's great. Just different to prep for.

Mike and Jim. I have not seen a Cleveland game since they got rolling.

Should be a bit of a chess match. of course Browns will need to see some tape on Buffalo's 3TE bunch formation to be effective.

Joe Haden 9 CB) gives Pettine a tool to run the Defense he likes I might guess. Like he did with Buffalo. asks a lot of his cornerbacks if i recall.

This game for me is more a Jim Schwartz versus Pettines Defense affair

[John from Riverside]

What needs to happen is Marrone need to do what he did with the defense......bring in a proven veteran offensive coordinator then just manage the big decisions of the game.....I dont get the sense that Marrone is involved with the defense at all (and he shouldnt be)

 

Now he needs to do the same thing with the offense

[YoloinOhio]

Mike and Jim. I have not seen a Cleveland game since they got rolling.

Should be a bit of a chess match. of course Browns will need to see some tape on Buffalo's 3TE bunch formation to be effective.

Joe Haden 9 CB) gives Pettine a tool to run the Defense he likes I might guess. Like he did with Buffalo. asks a lot of his cornerbacks if i recall.

This game for me is more a Jim Schwartz versus Pettines Defense affair

it looks exactly the same but with less talent in the front 4. He even has a Rookie UDFA CB who plays the nickel (Kuwan Williams) like our Robey, who he likes to send on blitzes. He is the one who beat out their top pick, Gilbert. He's had less than 10 snaps in the last 2 weeks. Edited November 28, 2014 by YoloinOhio

[Kelly the Dog]

What needs to happen is Marrone need to do what he did with the defense......bring in a proven veteran offensive coordinator then just manage the big decisions of the game.....I dont get the sense that Marrone is involved with the defense at all (and he shouldnt be)

 

Now he needs to do the same thing with the offense

He's never going to do that. He's an offensive guy. He's not a manager type even though he involves himself in the defensive calls and special teams calls to some degree. This is Marrone's offense with his protege running it. They agree on a lot. But Marrone was never going to hire the equivalent of Mike Pettine or Jim Schwartz to run the offense.

[3rdand12]

No. I honestly don't. One of the reasons they have problems is because of blitzes. One of the major reasons we have trouble running is because teams have an extra LB in the box instead of a DB. Another major reason is that safeties play in the box against us. There is no room to run. All of that is helped by more spread formations more of the time. Our WR happen to be pretty good blockers. Our RBs strengths are not patience and being able to pick holes, it is the home run threat. That is least utilized in 2-3 TE formations and best utilized with less guys at the LOS.

 

Again I'm not saying we should just abandon it. I'm saying that 10 more plays out of 3 wide and 10 less plays out of 2-3 TE and bunch formations at the line per game, and we score more points and utilize our best players.

And may i suggest ?

Is that too much to ask for Nathaniel Hackett ? Doug ?

The line might now be good enough >Pears to ease up on the protection all those TE s lined up. potentially provide.

Its about keeping Kyle upright .

I hope Bills are starting to practice opening up the field up with more receivers. As mentioned these guys are pretty good blockers in their own right. Good on the coaches for that !

on the other side of the coin , do we have enough receivers to line up 5 wides?

[26CornerBlitz]

He's never going to do that. He's an offensive guy. He's not a manager type even though he involves himself in the defensive calls and special teams calls to some degree. This is Marrone's offense with his protege running it. They agree on a lot. But Marrone was never going to hire the equivalent of Mike Pettine or Jim Schwartz to run the offense.

 

If that's the case, then he's a liar based on what he said in his introductory presser.

[3rdand12]

He's never going to do that. He's an offensive guy. He's not a manager type even though he involves himself in the defensive calls and special teams calls to some degree. This is Marrone's offense with his protege running it. They agree on a lot. But Marrone was never going to hire the equivalent of Mike Pettine or Jim Schwartz to run the offense.

interesting take Kelly. not sure i have heard it phrased that way. the relationship between Marrone and Nate I mean.

 

But would Marrone upgrade this coming year if someone he respected were to shake loose.?

New owners with money and all that ?

[John from Riverside]

He's never going to do that. He's an offensive guy. He's not a manager type even though he involves himself in the defensive calls and special teams calls to some degree. This is Marrone's offense with his protege running it. They agree on a lot. But Marrone was never going to hire the equivalent of Mike Pettine or Jim Schwartz to run the offense.

 

Then he needs to go.......simple as that

[YoloinOhio]

interesting take Kelly. not sure i have heard it phrased that way. the relationship between Marrone and Nate I mean.

 

But would Marrone upgrade this coming year if someone he respected were to shake loose.?

New owners with money and all that ?

one guy I wonder about is Scott linehan. Despite the Cowboys performance today, he has been a good play caller this year in Dallas. He was Schwartz's OC in Detroit. I wouldn't expect him to get fired or move on but you never know what will happen with Jerry.

[Taro T]

He's never going to do that. He's an offensive guy. He's not a manager type even though he involves himself in the defensive calls and special teams calls to some degree. This is Marrone's offense with his protege running it. They agree on a lot. But Marrone was never going to hire the equivalent of Mike Pettine or Jim Schwartz to run the offense.

interesting take Kelly. not sure i have heard it phrased that way. the relationship between Marrone and Nate I mean.

 

But would Marrone upgrade this coming year if someone he respected were to shake loose.?

New owners with money and all that ?

I'm ok w/ keeping Marrone as long as Hackett is gone. If Marrone wants Nate back, bye, bye boys.

 

I don't see the new owner being insistent on keeping coaching costs under some imaginary Mendoza line, so there is no reason to stick w/ Nate IMHO. Let Marrone have input, just don't waste this D w/ this horrible offensive playcalling.