thebandit27 Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 I recall we were getting gashed on KO returns last season. Marrone can't stomach the thought of covering a KO. He wants to keep ST out of the game. He wants a sure thing: drive starts at the 20. Seems idiotic to think that Carpenter's accuracy is somehow affected by a few kickoffs per game. I've never heard of such a thing. Wouldn't it be better to just kick it short and give Easley a chance to pin them? Carpenter was accurate last year, even with kickoff duty, and he usually got touchbacks anyway. If a KO specialist is such a good idea, why doesn't any other team in the NFL have a kickoff specialist? Is Marrone some lone genius? Now there is no room on the roster for our red zone threat, Mike Williams, because too many kickers. Having more than 3 ST stars only bolsters my argument that Crossman is a non-factor. It's the players that are good. Thanks for agreeing. Good thing you included that "thanks for agreeing" at the end; that totally means that my points in opposition to your stance don't matter. Good work. This post reeks of duality. In one sentence you're telling me that there's no need for a KO specialist because Carpenter handles the job just fine; you do realize that it was YOUR post that claimed that Gay was the very reason that the KO coverage was excelling, right? Pick a stance. I also noticed you putting words into my mouth, as I never said a KO specialist was a good idea. I did, however, tell you why Marrone likes to keep one. Nice job throwing Mike Williams into the discussion. That's a completely moot point. There's about six other guys on the roster he could dress instead of, including Lee Smith, Bacarri Rambo, and Keith Rivers. Lastly, if you start with a post saying that there are only three studs on ST, and ten proceed to say that the coach sucks, then go on to say that the level of talent on ST compensates for poor coaching, it all kind of meshes together into one totally circular line of logic that doesn't make sense. Crossman's unit has been very good. Somehow turning that into an indictment of he and Marrone is plain silly, no matter what twisted logic may be applied.
NoSaint Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 Crossman's unit has been very good. Somehow turning that into an indictment of he and Marrone is plain silly, no matter what twisted logic may be applied. i think the point he was trying to make is that carrying so many specialists (3 kickers, several well known around the league coverage guys) that the team SHOULD be elite, but if we dress easley and thigpen this weekend over mike williams would that be a good thing? ill give whaley credit as graham and dixon have both been great contributors elsewhere and not just specialists though - so it hasnt been a terrible situation on that front. and our starters out there have stayed healthy. when you look at the squad - we have a few top shelf talented return men, atleast 3 ELITE guys in dixon graham and easley - and other strong contributors. anything short of top 10 should be failure, so our inclusion in the top 10 is good but as far as coaching-- its a little like judging peyton mannings OC. it can be hard to tell whats him. i used the two examples of the blocked punt being superb play that was nothing to do with coaching, and leodis burning clock at the end of the other game as a spot he might have either neglected coaching up a player, or made a questionable call to tell him to do whatever he could.
Mr. WEO Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 On coverage: Bills are 17th in net avg punting. Bills are 15th in touchback % on KO's (only 55%). But they do rank 3rd in return avg. On returns: Bills rank 17th on KO return avg yardage. 22nd on returns over 20 yards. Bills rank 14th on punt return avg yardage (it's only 8.3 per return). No need to kiss any ass yet. And get rid the "kickoff specialist"--dumb idea with no benefit yet.
NoSaint Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 (edited) On coverage: Bills are 17th in net avg punting. Bills are 15th in touchback % on KO's (only 55%). But they do rank 3rd in return avg. On returns: Bills rank 17th on KO return avg yardage. 22nd on returns over 20 yards. Bills rank 14th on punt return avg yardage (it's only 8.3 per return). No need to kiss any ass yet. And get rid the "kickoff specialist"--dumb idea with no benefit yet. those are actually all worse than i expected even. Edited November 28, 2014 by NoSaint
26CornerBlitz Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 (edited) On coverage: Bills are 17th in net avg punting. Bills are 15th in touchback % on KO's (only 55%). But they do rank 3rd in return avg. On returns: Bills rank 17th on KO return avg yardage. 22nd on returns over 20 yards. Bills rank 14th on punt return avg yardage (it's only 8.3 per return). No need to kiss any ass yet. And get rid the "kickoff specialist"--dumb idea with no benefit yet. Beyond the mediocre numbers, when was the last time the Bills surprised any team with a fake punt, fake FG, onsides kick, or any other ST trickeration? The Bills' ST are as vanilla as can be. No apology necessary. Edited November 28, 2014 by 26CornerBlitz
The Big Cat Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 not off hand. is your argument that outside of 3 years, his entire career hes had talent that ranks in the bottom 3? or might there be a case that given an average team, he doesnt get the most out of them? You know what my point was. I follow the mob around this board to lecture them on how the "blame the coaches" refrain is !@#$ing stupid given our talent level on offense--PARTICULARLY at the QB position. Then when a unit does perform well, it has nothing to with coaches, and everything to do with talent. It's dizzying hypocrisy.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 On coverage: Bills are 17th in net avg punting. Bills are 15th in touchback % on KO's (only 55%). But they do rank 3rd in return avg. On returns: Bills rank 17th on KO return avg yardage. 22nd on returns over 20 yards. Bills rank 14th on punt return avg yardage (it's only 8.3 per return). No need to kiss any ass yet. And get rid the "kickoff specialist"--dumb idea with no benefit yet. The net punting is substantially misleading. Schmidt has been great at kicking inside the 20 which often distorts and limits or kills your net average. Granted, that success should go to Whaley as much as Crossman for finding and signing him. We also are using our fourth or fifth KR. Spiller had a TD that broke open a game and was doing well before he got hurt. Our #2 has been hurt the whole year. #3 Easley has been hurt most of the year when he would have been back there. I'm not really in favor of a KO specialist if it's going to cost us Mike Williams a couple games, and we have some proven ST guys to stop the returns. Or a decent backup player. That's a Marrone call though.
NoSaint Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 (edited) You know what my point was. I follow the mob around this board to lecture them on how the "blame the coaches" refrain is !@#$ing stupid given our talent level on offense--PARTICULARLY at the QB position. Then when a unit does perform well, it has nothing to with coaches, and everything to do with talent. It's dizzying hypocrisy. we have easley who i think is worthy of probowl talk, added graham who is a former probowler, brought in dixon who is a well known special teamer, are carrying an extra kicker, have a 2 time all pro kick returner (in addition to using spiller, and goodwin when healthy)..... we should be a very good unit. the coach can contribute good or bad to that in addition. i dont think weve seen anything definitive that hes doing better than anyone else, given the talent he has. for some reason it cant be a "both matter" discussion for you. The net punting is substantially misleading. Schmidt has been great at kicking inside the 20 which often distorts and limits or kills your net average. Granted, that success should go to Whaley as much as Crossman for finding and signing him. im not sure on that point -- hes tied for fourth most inside the 20, but also high on the volume of punts so im not sure its skewing him more than most good punters. only 1 punter in the top 16 has more kicks total and the spread on inside the 20 from 1-16 is only 7 total kicks. you might be able to argue his ratio is helping his average, from just the numbers standpoint. id be curious the average yard line kicked from, or something like that though. Edited November 28, 2014 by NoSaint
Kelly the Dog Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 we have easley who i think is worthy of probowl talk, added graham who is a former probowler, brought in dixon who is a well known special teamer, are carrying an extra kicker, have a 2 time all pro kick returner (in addition to using spiller, and goodwin when healthy)..... we should be a very good unit. the coach can contribute good or bad to that in addition. i dont think weve seen anything definitive that hes doing better than anyone else, given the talent he has. for some reason it cant be a "both matter" discussion for you. im not sure on that point -- hes tied for fourth most inside the 20, but also high on the volume of punts so im not sure its skewing him more than most good punters. only 1 punter in the top 16 has more kicks total and the spread on inside the 20 from 1-16 is only 7 total kicks. you might be able to argue his ratio is helping his average, from just the numbers standpoint. id be curious the average yard line kicked from, or something like that though. Guys that miss the kicks and they go in the endzone get 1-19 extra yards on their net average. But the real point was he's been extremely effective getting a 35-40 yard punt which also hurts the average. 17th in net punting implies he's less than average. He's been very good.
NoSaint Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 (edited) Guys that miss the kicks and they go in the endzone get 1-19 extra yards on their net average. But the real point was he's been extremely effective getting a 35-40 yard punt which also hurts the average. 17th in net punting implies he's less than average. He's been very good. only 2-3 guys in the top half of the rankings had more touchbacks. but he did have more total kicks than most so.... im not sure if its skewing him any more than the others, really. itd take more than a glance into the numbers but i dont think its a gimme or a wide effect. his average is 44 (27th), and net a shade under 40. i think hes been good, but its looking like the coverage may be the star of the kicking game there. possibly that safer, less returnable, kicks have also been part of the equation. but that might even be a result of a lot of kicks around mid field Edited November 28, 2014 by NoSaint
Kelly the Dog Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 (edited) only 2-3 guys in the top half of the rankings had more touchbacks. but he did have more total kicks than most so.... im not sure if its skewing him any more than the others, really. itd take more than a glance into the numbers but i dont think its a gimme or a wide effect. his average is 44 (27th), and net a shade under 40. i think hes been good, but its looking like the coverage may be the star of the kicking game there. possibly that safer, less returnable, kicks have also been part of the equation. but that might even be a result of a lot of kicks around mid field I recall more than a few times, including at least a few against the Jets that they fielded a punt at the 5 or so and ran around a lot and got tackled at the 5 or so. Great punt. Great coverage. But again kind of skewed the stats because they had no business catching it. He also kicks them high so it's harder to get good returns against him. He's just been consistently good all year. Very few shanks. Very few line drives. Almost always inside the twenty when expected to be. Edited November 28, 2014 by Kelly the Dog
NoSaint Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 I recall more than a few times, including at least a few against the Jets that they fielded a punt at the 5 or so and ran around a lot and got tackled at the 5 or so. Great punt. Great coverage. But again kind of skewed the stats because they had no business catching it. He also kicks them high so it's harder to get good returns against him. He's just been consistently good all year. Very few shanks. Very few line drives. Almost always inside the twenty when expected to be. definitely happy with his play - wasnt trying to say he was doing poorly, just that im not sure it was the right causation being discussed on why his numbers arent shining as brightly. hes been good and paired with good coverage -- so the unit looks even better.
billykaykay Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 Beyond the mediocre numbers, when was the last time the Bills surprised any team with a fake punt, fake FG, onsides kick, or any other ST trickeration? The Bills' ST are as vanilla as can be. No apology necessary. I was reading somewhere that teams, early in the game, should go for a two point conversion & utilize an obvious pick play. If it is not called, you steal a point. If it is called, you kick the PAT. At the very least, you probably get the opponent to use a time out.
Mango Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 No he needs to apologize to us. We keep players like MW on the bench so that his buddy Marrone can save his job.
NoSaint Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 I was reading somewhere that teams, early in the game, should go for a two point conversion & utilize an obvious pick play. If it is not called, you steal a point. If it is called, you kick the PAT. At the very least, you probably get the opponent to use a time out. really, a smart idea. could easily sub in a hold, push off, or any other similar infraction that might make a difference and go uncalled.
thebandit27 Posted November 28, 2014 Posted November 28, 2014 No he needs to apologize to us. We keep players like MW on the bench so that his buddy Marrone can save his job. Yes, ST is the sole reason that Mike Williams is on the bench.
26CornerBlitz Posted December 8, 2014 Posted December 8, 2014 I want Danny Crossman to apologize to me and all Bills' fans because his ST units were dreadful yesterday.
NoSaint Posted December 8, 2014 Posted December 8, 2014 (edited) I want Danny Crossman to apologize to me and all Bills' fans because his ST units were dreadful yesterday. as we discussed, it was an interesting call to do the kicker recovered onside kick attempt instead of hoping for a weird bounce. we both agreed that the kick they chose is much better as a surprise in the 2nd quarter when you key on a guy that turns too early. really though, even if they had designed it to get someone ahead of the kicker hitting the receiving team to open up space it might have had a chance. the play just looked poorly conceived/executed -- which is what i worry about with this guy. Edited December 8, 2014 by NoSaint
26CornerBlitz Posted December 8, 2014 Posted December 8, 2014 as we discussed, it was an interesting call to do the kicker recovered onside kick attempt instead of hoping for a weird bounce. we both agreed that the kick they chose is much better as a surprise in the 2nd quarter when you key on a guy that turns too early. really though, even if they had designed it to get someone ahead of the kicker hitting the receiving team to open up space it might have had a chance. the play just looked poorly conceived/executed -- which is what i worry about with this guy. The call for that kind of kick was simply nonsensical and inexplicable.
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