FireChan Posted January 2, 2016 Posted January 2, 2016 When I saw The Hidden Fortress, I was absolutely stunned at how much Lucas stole. He even stole the scene where Han chases the squad of Stormtroopers down the corridor. Don't get me wrong, Star Wars (the original, theatrical release) is still one of my favorite movies. But Lucas is a grade-A hack, and a ****-ass storyteller (as he proved by not understanding why Han shoots first.) Because Han is a bad-ass? Episode 1 is a complete waste. Spends way too long on characters that have absolutely no bearing on the story. Qui-Gon, Jar Jar, Watto, Darth Maul etc. and then gets rid of them or they don't appear again. Why does it matter that The Emperor had an apprentice before Count Dooku? The whole Episode 1 story is pointless. He could have started the story at Episode 2 and nothing would have changed. Do we really need to see pod racing for 40 minutes of the movie? Does anyone really care about Anakin as a child? Lucas likes to say Star Wars is about Anakin. The problem is there is nothing exciting about Anakins story. He succumbs to massive temptation, thats basically it. IMO, Star Wars is about Luke. His story is more interesting than Anakins. Plus Episode 7 is just a continuation of Lukes story. Episode 1 is also patently moronic. I saw a hilarious tear down of the entire prequel trilogy and it was spot on. It was basically a broken movie. The whole temptation angle was dumb too. Anakin wasn't even the one tempted, he was the one begging Padme to love him. It makes no friggin' sense. In fact, one of the biggest problems with RotJ is Luke had no temptation either. The Emperor says he'll be more powerful. That's it.
DC Tom Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 Because Han is a bad-ass? Because Han's the "outcast" archetype in the hero myth. There's plenty of examples demonstrating this: he's a smuggler, he's hired in a shady backwater cantina, he flies a "piece of junk," he keeps questionable company (a tall guy draped in dog pelts), hell even his name - Han Solo - labels him as the outcast. But those are all character traits; the first and most obvious action that he takes to define himself as the "outcast" is shooting Greedo first. It's an active, explicit confirmation that as the "outcast" he defies social rules and works outside societal norms (the character traits being implicit, and far less powerful - less "indicative" than "suggestive.") What's more, Han has an entire story arc (second in importance to Luke's "hero journey") whereby he evolves from the self-centered, selfish "outcast" to someone who believes in (the Force) and becomes part of (the rebellion) something bigger than just himself (similar to Aragorn's journey in Lord of the Rings from Strider to the High King - he's the same archetype, with the same basic story arc second only to Frodo's "hero journey.") So what does Lucas do? Makes Greedo shoot first. Removes the active confirmation of Han's archetype. That turns Han Solo into less of an "outcast" and more of an borderline-schizophrenic. Every single decision he has to make from then on ceases to be a conflict between his fundamental selfishness and developing expression of his better nature, and just becomes more examples of inconsistent behavior. It also guts, completely, the second-most important story arc in the movie. And what's worse...Lucas should have known all this. Star Wars is such a classic, complete example of the hero myth that it's practically an archetype of the myth itself (it's such a good example, it's used to teach the structure of the hero myth.) Lucas, in changing that one scene, demonstrates conclusively that he has absolutely no understanding of his own movie, or storytelling in general.
FireChan Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 Because Han's the "outcast" archetype in the hero myth. There's plenty of examples demonstrating this: he's a smuggler, he's hired in a shady backwater cantina, he flies a "piece of junk," he keeps questionable company (a tall guy draped in dog pelts), hell even his name - Han Solo - labels him as the outcast. But those are all character traits; the first and most obvious action that he takes to define himself as the "outcast" is shooting Greedo first. It's an active, explicit confirmation that as the "outcast" he defies social rules and works outside societal norms (the character traits being implicit, and far less powerful - less "indicative" than "suggestive.") What's more, Han has an entire story arc (second in importance to Luke's "hero journey") whereby he evolves from the self-centered, selfish "outcast" to someone who believes in (the Force) and becomes part of (the rebellion) something bigger than just himself (similar to Aragorn's journey in Lord of the Rings from Strider to the High King - he's the same archetype, with the same basic story arc second only to Frodo's "hero journey.") So what does Lucas do? Makes Greedo shoot first. Removes the active confirmation of Han's archetype. That turns Han Solo into less of an "outcast" and more of an borderline-schizophrenic. Every single decision he has to make from then on ceases to be a conflict between his fundamental selfishness and developing expression of his better nature, and just becomes more examples of inconsistent behavior. It also guts, completely, the second-most important story arc in the movie. And what's worse...Lucas should have known all this. Star Wars is such a classic, complete example of the hero myth that it's practically an archetype of the myth itself (it's such a good example, it's used to teach the structure of the hero myth.) Lucas, in changing that one scene, demonstrates conclusively that he has absolutely no understanding of his own movie, or storytelling in general. Interesting. I knew I hated the change, but I never thought of it like an active confirmation. I'd quibble about Aragorn, but that's a conversation for another day.
Mark Vader Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 I'm going to finally chime in on this. I've seen it twice, and loved it. J.J. Abrams knew what he was doing. This movie is just plain fun. It was Star Wars. Rey is a great character. Let's see how the no longer unknown Daisy Ridley, handles the fandom adoration and instant superstar status. I have no problem with how Ren's character comes off as being "whiny" or "not much of a badass". He's not a Sith Lord, he's an apprentice. He was pretty badass when he stopped that laser from Poe. I was totally faked out by Snoke's first appearance. I thought he was a giant. Good job, Mr. Abrams. Now a couple minor quibbles..... When they announced that Max von Sydow was cast in this movie, I was thrilled. He was in it for what, 1 minute? He even got the coveted "And" credit. They could have gotten anybody to play that part. The merchandising and hype surrounding Captain Phasma was a disappointment. I thought we were going to get a bad ass female Stormtrooper. Very little film time for this character. Gwendolyn Christie made the rounds for this movie, and we barely saw her. Oh well, let's see what they do with her in Episode VIII. This is just the beginning. It's a great time to be a Star Wars fan. Bring on Episode VIII..........after Rogue One.
shrader Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 When they announced that Max von Sydow was cast in this movie, I was thrilled. He was in it for what, 1 minute? He even got the coveted "And" credit. They could have gotten anybody to play that part. Just like with Ford, I bet we get more of his character in flashbacks in at least the next movie.
LeGOATski Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Episode 1 is a complete waste. Spends way too long on characters that have absolutely no bearing on the story. Qui-Gon, Jar Jar, Watto, Darth Maul etc. and then gets rid of them or they don't appear again. Why does it matter that The Emperor had an apprentice before Count Dooku? The whole Episode 1 story is pointless. He could have started the story at Episode 2 and nothing would have changed. Do we really need to see pod racing for 40 minutes of the movie? Does anyone really care about Anakin as a child? Lucas likes to say Star Wars is about Anakin. The problem is there is nothing exciting about Anakins story. He succumbs to massive temptation, thats basically it. IMO, Star Wars is about Luke. His story is more interesting than Anakins. Plus Episode 7 is just a continuation of Lukes story. Star Wars is all about Anakin. Episode VII was, once again, about Anakin. He brought balance to the Force.
eball Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Saw it for the second time yesterday, with an eye towards looking for any "hidden" clues or tidbits. Noticed one in particular (don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread, and I haven't researched) -- in the final scene it sure looks like Luke is standing in front of a gravestone when he turns around to face Rey. Perhaps the wife and mother of Rey he took with him into exile? Just spitballing here. On a second viewing I also appreciated the symbolism of the light of the sun going out just as you're thinking perhaps Ren will follow Han. Don't know what to make of Leia's hug with Rey; I certainly don't think Rey knew who she was.
/dev/null Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Just like with Ford, I bet we get more of his character in flashbacks in at least the next movie. Von Sydow maybe, but not Ford Ford wanted out with Empire. That's why they froze him carbonite so they could write him or bring him back later Then he wanted an heroic death in RotJ Ford's done with Star Wars
Wayne Cubed Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Saw it for the second time yesterday, with an eye towards looking for any "hidden" clues or tidbits. Noticed one in particular (don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread, and I haven't researched) -- in the final scene it sure looks like Luke is standing in front of a gravestone when he turns around to face Rey. Perhaps the wife and mother of Rey he took with him into exile? Just spitballing here. On a second viewing I also appreciated the symbolism of the light of the sun going out just as you're thinking perhaps Ren will follow Han. Don't know what to make of Leia's hug with Rey; I certainly don't think Rey knew who she was. I'm starting to think that Rey, is someone related to Obi-Wan. Perhaps grandaughter? I don't think she's a Skywalker, that's too obvious.
DC Tom Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 I'm starting to think that Rey, is someone related to Obi-Wan. Perhaps grandaughter? I don't think she's a Skywalker, that's too obvious. Anakin's love-child with Yoda.
/dev/null Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Anakin's love-child with Yoda. jar-jar and mon mothma got freaky in the Senate chamber
Fixxxer Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Saw it for the second time yesterday, with an eye towards looking for any "hidden" clues or tidbits. Noticed one in particular (don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread, and I haven't researched) -- in the final scene it sure looks like Luke is standing in front of a gravestone when he turns around to face Rey. Perhaps the wife and mother of Rey he took with him into exile? Just spitballing here. On a second viewing I also appreciated the symbolism of the light of the sun going out just as you're thinking perhaps Ren will follow Han. Don't know what to make of Leia's hug with Rey; I certainly don't think Rey knew who she was. That was a poweful scene and a favourite of mine. The light of the sun going out = level of Solo's hope his kid could come back from evil. I believe Ren's words are thank you, as if he somehow could read Solo's thoughts.
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 That was a poweful scene and a favourite of mine. The light of the sun going out = level of Solo's hope his kid could come back from evil. I believe Ren's words are thank you, as if he somehow could read Solo's thoughts. That was pretty deep. Powerful scene
DC Tom Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 jar-jar and mon mothma got freaky in the Senate chamber Their midichlorian levels are too low to result in Rey's abilities. And I just realized that Rule 34 applies to "Anakin and Yoda." Eew...
/dev/null Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Their midichlorian levels are too low to result in Rey's abilities. midichlorians, and Episode I, are like Godfather III. Never happened
Wayne Cubed Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Anakin's love-child with Yoda. Still waiting for Darth Jar-Jar to show up.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Makes Greedo shoot first. Them's fighting words, Tom.
shrader Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 Von Sydow maybe, but not Ford Ford wanted out with Empire. That's why they froze him carbonite so they could write him or bring him back later Then he wanted an heroic death in RotJ Ford's done with Star Wars There's too much back story of how Ben got to where he is now. It'll be fleshed out in some form. Maybe that winds up being in cartoon form again? I never bothered with any of those shows, but I suppose they could get someone else to voice the character. I have no idea if they did the same with the post-episode 3 cartoons.
Jerry Christ Posted January 5, 2016 Posted January 5, 2016 I'm glad too, I'm not a big Han fan.........was not phased when he was killed. Like to see Luke die as well ASAP. Can you tell I'm a dark side kind of guy, although, I think Ren/Ben will come back from it in the end.
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