Kirby Jackson Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 31 out of 32 GMs would agree with you. Now or before the draft?
CodeMonkey Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) Did you feel this way prior to the draft? i don't follow football much, college football not at all. So no, I had no opinion pre-draft one way or the other. Not saying I called this prior to the draft. I am not a GM and being paid to be able to grade players to that degree. I'm saying that looking back now, to me the better move would have been to take Beckham and not give up next years first round pick. That is all. And I believe that was the point the OP was trying to make as well way back 16 pages ago. i did say on draft day however, that I thought the price paid for Watkins (next years first) was too high. Edited November 24, 2014 by CodeMonkey
thebandit27 Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 31 out of 32 GMs would agree with you. According to whom?
truth on hold Posted November 24, 2014 Author Posted November 24, 2014 Now or before the draft? Well we do know that other teams could have offered Cleveland a comparable trade and didnt
Alphadawg7 Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Bills fans still can't count. We didn't give up 2 first round picks, we gave up one pick. The other was going to be used on a player regardless...You don't "give up" a pick when referring to the pick used to select the player. So our first rounder this year was not "given up" for watkins, it was USED on Watkins like it would have been on any player. We gave up ONE first round pick to be able to be in position to USE our first round pick on Watkins. The sacrifice is ONE pick. And bottom line, Watkins is a special talent. He plays a position we needed a play maker at. He plays on the side of the ball thats our achilles heal. In reality we gave up a probably OL prospect or TE prospect that has a more than 50% bust rate to insure we got an Elite talent. I will take that.
TheFunPolice Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) Saying "what did you (as a fan) think BEFORE the draft is fine and all, but GM's are paid to RIGHT. You expect your GM to have foresight and anticipate things in advance. This is how the stupid Patriots* have bee ruining Sundays for opponents for what seems like forever. They see that a player will be hitting the wall and cut bait. Everyone criticizes them (myself included) saying that it's Belichick's arrogance coming home to roost. Then they are proven right by circumstances. That's what is great about sports. You either produce (win) or you do not. People can "explain" all they want, but they don't award rings for the best arguments. Whaley is in big trouble, IMO. Sammy being a great young WR and it being a dumb move for the Bills are not mutually exclusive. Then there is the "Sammy won us 3 games." Would one of the other top tier rookie Wr have made similar plays, or even different ones earlier in the games? Who is to say. I love Sammy, don't get me wrong. But IF (and IMO it is STILL a big IF) this team misses the playoffs, and is NOWHERE with EJ Manuel, AND has no 1st round pick to look forward to then it is time for people to pay with their jobs. You can say "what did YOU post before the draft?" all you want. None of us are the GM of the team that put them in the situation I just described above. That is not a defense; it's a pitiful excuse. It's the same logic that says "let's see YOU block JJ Watt!" as if that is a defense of the lineman he abuses... Edited November 24, 2014 by TheFunPolice
CodeMonkey Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Sammy being a great young WR and it being a dumb move for the Bills are not mutually exclusive. That sums up my view very well on the point brought up by the OP.
The Big Cat Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Over/under: 16 game seasons for Beckham: 5.5 Is anyone talking the over? Ditto Sammy, is anyone taking the under?
FireChan Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Saying "what did you (as a fan) think BEFORE the draft is fine and all, but GM's are paid to RIGHT. You expect your GM to have foresight and anticipate things in advance. This is how the stupid Patriots* have bee ruining Sundays for opponents for what seems like forever. They see that a player will be hitting the wall and cut bait. Everyone criticizes them (myself included) saying that it's Belichick's arrogance coming home to roost. Then they are proven right by circumstances. That's what is great about sports. You either produce (win) or you do not. People can "explain" all they want, but they don't award rings for the best arguments. Whaley is in big trouble, IMO. Sammy being a great young WR and it being a dumb move for the Bills are not mutually exclusive. Then there is the "Sammy won us 3 games." Would one of the other top tier rookie Wr have made similar plays, or even different ones earlier in the games? Who is to say. I love Sammy, don't get me wrong. But IF (and IMO it is STILL a big IF) this team misses the playoffs, and is NOWHERE with EJ Manuel, AND has no 1st round pick to look forward to then it is time for people to pay with their jobs. You can say "what did YOU post before the draft?" all you want. None of us are the GM of the team that put them in the situation I just described above. That is not a defense; it's a pitiful excuse. It's the same logic that says "let's see YOU block JJ Watt!" as if that is a defense of the lineman he abuses... Exactly the point. We'll never know if ODB would have made those plays or not. We do know that Sammy did.
CodeMonkey Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Exactly the point. We'll never know if ODB would have made those plays or not. We do know that Sammy did. So that makes Watkins worth the extra 1st?
Kirby Jackson Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 i don't follow football much, college football not at all. So no, I had no opinion pre-draft one way or the other. Not saying I called this prior to the draft. I am not a GM and being paid to be able to grade players to that degree. I'm saying that looking back now, to me the better move would have been to take Beckham and not give up next years first round pick. That is all. And I believe that was the point the OP was trying to make as well way back 16 pages ago. i did say on draft day however, that I thought the price paid for Watkins (next years first) was too high. Fair enough
FireChan Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 So that makes Watkins worth the extra 1st? We know it translated to +3 wins. Draw your own conclusion from that if you want, but I personally believe it does.
TheFunPolice Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) Exactly the point. We'll never know if ODB would have made those plays or not. We do know that Sammy did. I don't really care about ODB in particular. The point is that this draft was loaded with elite WR talent and the Bills went for broke. That's fine; it's exciting and Sammy is a good player. But it IS a gamble given the Bills situation at QB. It also isn't about that EXACT play. The idea is that without Watkins and with any one of the other comparable WR in this class, does the team lose all 3 of those games? Are they in the same positions? Everything about the games is different. Maybe one of the other WR scores a TD that Sammy didn't... Who knows. It changes the entire game so you can't just plug a different guy in there and say "would he have made THAT play?" All that is beside the point. IF this team finishes with a losing record AND is absolutely nowhere with its young "franchise QB" that this coach/GM combo brought in AND has no 1st round pick that is indefensible and people need to be held accountable. Rolling the dice is fine, but you have to actually be right or there is a cost. Edited November 24, 2014 by TheFunPolice
Kirby Jackson Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Well we do know that other teams could have offered Cleveland a comparable trade and didnt You seemed cool with it at the time: http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/167557-rd1-pick-4-wr-sammy-watkins-clemson/page__st__580
st pete gogolak Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Is the question, if you use perfect 20/20 hindsight, would Bills have been better off staying at 9 and selecting Beckham? After seeing Beckham play a couple of games, the answer is probably yes. If that's not the question, then the answer is no, it's not clear. I don't remember a single analyst having Beckham as a top 10 pick. If I recall correctly, most had him between 15 and 19. The consensus was that we were looking at Anthony Barr (gone before our pick), Taylor Lewan or Eric Ebron. Would I rather have Sammy in exchange for any of those three players plus next year's no. 1? Absolutely.
TheFunPolice Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 would you spend an extra 1st to go from 5-11 to 8-8? Hopefully that is NOT the case. This team could STILL make the playoffs if they win a few.
FireChan Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 I don't really care about ODB in particular. The point is that this draft was loaded with elite WR talent and the Bills went for broke. That's fine; it's exciting and Sammy is a good player. But it IS a gamble given the Bills situation at QB. It also isn't about that EXACT play. The idea is that without Watkins and with any one of the other comparable WR in this class, does the team lose all 3 of those games? Are they in the same positions? Everything about the games is different. Maybe one of the other WR scores a TD that Sammy didn't... Who knows. It changes the entire game so you can't just plug a different guy in there and say "would he have made THAT play?" All that is beside the point. IF this team finishes with a losing record AND is absolutely nowhere with its young "franchise QB" that this coach/GM combo brought in AND has no 1st round pick that is indefensible and people need to be held accountable. Rolling the dice is fine, but you have to actually be right or there is a cost. What franchise QB will be available with the Bills first rounder next year? Please, tell me.
st pete gogolak Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Also, everyone who is critical of the trade is way overrating a draft pick between 15 and 20 (hopefully where Bills end up). It's a crapshoot whether you find an impact player at that point of the draft. It's not the end of the world.
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