mannc Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 evans also projected as a #2. Doesn't mean they aren't good. No, it means the people doing the "projecting" aren't great at their jobs.
CountDorkula Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) I thought it was a poor decision before it happened. Never move up and give up your 1st rounder unless you think you are getting a franchise qb. Receivers are wayyyyyyyy easier to replace than qbs. Would you trade a first round pick for AJ Green, Demaryus Thomas, Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson? Edited November 24, 2014 by CountDorkula
thebandit27 Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 silly comment if the discussion is should we have taken A instead of B, when we don't know what contribution A would have made. How do you know we wouldnt have won more games with Beckham, for example? It's also not an apples to apples comparison because the Bills have a much better defense than Giants, and have been in a lot more close games So then this entire discussion is moot? Great. Nice thread then. It sure is a casual fan rationalization, because an individual player can't "win" a football game. Football isn't broken down that simple except to a casual eye. There are hundreds of variables in a single outcome of a game. The single player argument doesn't exist. It absolutely does exist, and for the very reason you're saying. In each and every game, there are plays that are key in contributing to a win or a loss. Remove the player that makes said key plays, and the result of the game can turn. You're arguing semantics, not mechanics. The Bills don't win against Miami, Minnesota, or Detroit without Sammy. That's the point.
YoloinOhio Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) No, it means the people doing the "projecting" aren't great at their jobs. evans is indeed a #2 WR. Edited November 24, 2014 by YoloinOhio
Kirby Jackson Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) what if you had traded multiple 1st's for "sure things" like Leaf and Mandarich? Now you're out mutliple 1st round picks instead of 1 ... this is the nightmare scenario Washington finds itself in right now Both had huge character concerns and subsequently weren't sure things. I have said in this draft the only guys that I would have went up for were Mack or Watkins because they had high ceilings and high floors. The worst case scenario for Watkins was Stevie Johnson's career. While you wouldn't trade 2 1sts for that you would have a productive player for a decade. His ceiling is infinitely higher. You never make a move like that for a guy with some concerns (ie Clowney) or a guy with limited upside (ie Jake Mathews). One has too much risk and the other not a high enough ceiling. Edited November 24, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
papazoid Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Who are the top 5 WR's in your eyes? please list them. #1- megatron #2- gronkowski #3- dez Bryant #4- aj green #5- Antonio brown #6- fitzgerald #7- Brandon marshall #8- julio jones #9- boldin #10 Sammy watkins
GunnerBill Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 Both had huge character concerns and subsequently weren't sure things. I have said in this draft the only guys that I would have went up for were Mack or Watlins because they had high ceilings and high floors. The worst case scenario for Watkins was Stevie Johnson's career. While you wouldn't trade 2 1sts for that you would have a productive player for a decade. His ceiling is infinitely higher. You never make a move like that for a guy with some concerns (ie Clowney) or a guy with limited upside (ie Jake Mathews). One has too much risk and the other not a high enough ceiling. A very erudite contribution.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) So then this entire discussion is moot? Great. Nice thread then. It absolutely does exist, and for the very reason you're saying. In each and every game, there are plays that are key in contributing to a win or a loss. Remove the player that makes said key plays, and the result of the game can turn. You're arguing semantics, not mechanics. The Bills don't win against Miami, Minnesota, or Detroit without Sammy. That's the point. So who gets the win for the Detroit game, Sammy or Carpenter? How about Minnesota? 7-11, Chandler, Orton or Sammy? I hate that casual way of looking at wins. It doesn't exist. Edited November 24, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever
mannc Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 evans is indeed a #2 WR. In what sense? Are you saying Vincent Jackson is better?
truth on hold Posted November 24, 2014 Author Posted November 24, 2014 Both had huge character concerns and subsequently weren't sure things. I have said in this draft the only guys that I would have went up for were Mack or Watlins because they had high ceilings and high floors. The worst case scenario for Watkins was Stevie Johnson's career. While you wouldn't trade 2 1sts for that you would have a productive player for a decade. His ceiling is infinitely higher. You never make a move like that for a guy with some concerns (ie Clowney) or a guy with limited upside (ie Jake Mathews). One has too much risk and the other not a high enough ceiling. here we go with the revisionist histories. Here's some more #1 or #2 overalls for you to revise, and just imagine dropping multiple 1st's for: Sam Bradford Jamarcus Russell Robert Gallery Charles Rogers David Carr Robert Griffin
YoloinOhio Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 In what sense? Are you saying Vincent Jackson is better? He's their #1 WR. I don't know which is better. But he's the one facing the opponent's best corner.
prissythecat Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 here we go with the revisionist histories. Here's some more #1 or #2 overalls for you to revise, and just imagine dropping multiple 1st's for: Sam Bradford Jamarcus Russell Robert Gallery Charles Rogers David Carr Robert Griffin Well multiple firsts were given up for Robert Griffin.
mannc Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 He's their #1 WR. I don't know which is better. But he's the one facing the opponent's best corner. Not for long.
thebandit27 Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 So who gets the win for the Detroit game, Sammy or Carpenter? How about Minnesota? 7-11, Chandler, Orton or Sammy? I hate that casual way of looking at wins. It doesn't exist. It's not casual just because you don't like it. Shelf the insults and keep the discussion to football. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge the crux of what I'm saying, but I'll say it again: The Bills don't win against Miami, Minnesota, or Detroit without Sammy; that's the point.
truth on hold Posted November 24, 2014 Author Posted November 24, 2014 Well multiple firsts were given up for Robert Griffin. I know and its got DC is a huge hole. Thats my point about trading 1sts for a "sure thing"
mannc Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge the crux of what I'm saying, but I'll say it again: The Bills don't win against Miami, Minnesota, or Detroit without Sammy; that's the point. And you are sure ODB doesn't make those plays?
CountDorkula Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 (edited) And you are sure ODB doesn't make those plays? That is an impossible question to answer. Did you know Beckham Jr was going to look this good? Edited November 24, 2014 by CountDorkula
thebandit27 Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 In what sense? Are you saying Vincent Jackson is better? He's their #1 WR. I don't know which is better. But he's the one facing the opponent's best corner. Simple: the #1 WR is the guy that is targeted the most often in the offense. Jackson has 103 targets in 2014; Evans has 83. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingTargets
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 It's not casual just because you don't like it. Shelf the insults and keep the discussion to football. I'm not sure why you refuse to acknowledge the crux of what I'm saying, but I'll say it again: The Bills don't win against Miami, Minnesota, or Detroit without Sammy; that's the point. What you are really saying is that plays are made by a team (several individual plays from several players) working in tandem with the rest of the unit throughout a course of a game that leads to wins.
thebandit27 Posted November 24, 2014 Posted November 24, 2014 And you are sure ODB doesn't make those plays? It's entirely irrelevant to the discussion. They are mutually exclusive statements. I happen to know for a fact he doesn't make the plays Sammy makes against Miami, since he wasn't able to suit up in week 2. if we want to compare that type of situation though, the closest we can get is to ask what game-winning plays Beckham has made for the Giants? Or maybe, what game(s) have the Giants won with Beckham that they wouldn't have won without him?
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