leh-nerd skin-erd Posted April 11 Posted April 11 1 hour ago, 4th&long said: I’m fully aware she can Handel herself. It’s obvious. I’m just trying to figure out where you are coming from with that response? Don't be disingenuous, 4th, you weren't just "trying to figure out" where I was coming from. You were rude, ill-mannered and quite presumptuous. It happens sometimes, so no hard feelings, but I hope I've clarified why I replied the way I did. More--I'm not particularly interested in drilling down to nitty gritty of climate science. Here's why: Historically speaking, science evolves and changes. New discoveries are made, technology offers solutions, and that which we thought before is disproven. When I hear that everything we ever needed to know we now know, I wonder about the agenda of those who declare such things. There is a religious fervor on one side of the aisle, and that makes me inherently distrustful; It seems to me--and this is an area CKA took particular exception a while back--agenda driven individuals in positions of power are using the fear of climate catastrophe to leverage wealth redistribution schemes. It seems to me that while preaching that the end is nigh, and then updating as necessary to end is nigh +1..+2..etc, policy makers often reveal an unbelievable amount of climate hypocrisy. Whether it's the Clinton's, Obamas or Bush's traveling the world, burning through fossil fuels, paying to pollute, or the annual trip to Davos, it seems on a personal level they are wholly unconcerned about climate change. As I view these people as being the most in-the-know on the planet, and assuming they don't want their grandchildren to inherit the earth they describe, it makes me wonder what the real story might be; It seems to me that there is an awful lot of money in saving the planet, and more than a few people getting extraordinarily wealthy in the process. All that said, I recognize the role that govt plays in social engineering, and I recognize that many positive outcomes can stem from a partnership between government and private industry. I simply do not trust blindly, and generally try to follow the money. Here's one last thought on Kay's posts. In following her thoughts on some other issues (socialism, abortion, and taxation) I find there is precious little common ground. That's ok, of course, but it causes me to be distrustful generally about her perspective here. That's not to say she's wrong, she may be dead nuts spot on. if, down the road, I come to see it that way, I'm happy to share my gratitude. In the end though, here's my underlying question for you. In light of Kay's posts--- What are you doing, as a citizen of the planet, to change, impact, alter the path the world is on to the apocalypse? Have you gone vegan? Sworn off shish kabobs, or gone with grasshopper/grasshopper/bell pepper/cricket/onion? Converted to a heat pump? Sold your gas-powered vehicle? Tithed to the gods of green energy (15%, minimum I would expect)? Moved to a green energy commune? If you're like most people, you've probably not done much at all---but if you did, good for you for living your beliefs. Sincerely, I mean that. I live mine as best I can. I'm mindful of waste, mindful of the environment, invest in certain ESG funds that interest me, and push on. I do acknowledge throwing styrofoam in the regular trash the other day--the recyclable can was chock full with the remnants of Amazon/UPS boxes. 1 1
reddogblitz Posted April 11 Posted April 11 8 hours ago, 4th&long said: I’m fully aware she can Handel herself. It’s obvious. I’m just trying to figure out where you are coming from with that response? As for myself, I love the Handel organ concertos.
4th&long Posted April 11 Posted April 11 46 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: As for myself, I love the Handel organ concertos. I use swipe on my phone to post. How words get spelled? You will see a lot of my posts are edited. But I have always loved the contribution the spell checkers provide. Thanks for your service. 2
4th&long Posted April 12 Posted April 12 (edited) 7 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Don't be disingenuous, 4th, you weren't just "trying to figure out" where I was coming from. You were rude, ill-mannered and quite presumptuous. It happens sometimes, so no hard feelings, but I hope I've clarified why I replied the way I did. More--I'm not particularly interested in drilling down to nitty gritty of climate science. Here's why: Historically speaking, science evolves and changes. New discoveries are made, technology offers solutions, and that which we thought before is disproven. When I hear that everything we ever needed to know we now know, I wonder about the agenda of those who declare such things. There is a religious fervor on one side of the aisle, and that makes me inherently distrustful; It seems to me--and this is an area CKA took particular exception a while back--agenda driven individuals in positions of power are using the fear of climate catastrophe to leverage wealth redistribution schemes. It seems to me that while preaching that the end is nigh, and then updating as necessary to end is nigh +1..+2..etc, policy makers often reveal an unbelievable amount of climate hypocrisy. Whether it's the Clinton's, Obamas or Bush's traveling the world, burning through fossil fuels, paying to pollute, or the annual trip to Davos, it seems on a personal level they are wholly unconcerned about climate change. As I view these people as being the most in-the-know on the planet, and assuming they don't want their grandchildren to inherit the earth they describe, it makes me wonder what the real story might be; It seems to me that there is an awful lot of money in saving the planet, and more than a few people getting extraordinarily wealthy in the process. All that said, I recognize the role that govt plays in social engineering, and I recognize that many positive outcomes can stem from a partnership between government and private industry. I simply do not trust blindly, and generally try to follow the money. Here's one last thought on Kay's posts. In following her thoughts on some other issues (socialism, abortion, and taxation) I find there is precious little common ground. That's ok, of course, but it causes me to be distrustful generally about her perspective here. That's not to say she's wrong, she may be dead nuts spot on. if, down the road, I come to see it that way, I'm happy to share my gratitude. In the end though, here's my underlying question for you. In light of Kay's posts--- What are you doing, as a citizen of the planet, to change, impact, alter the path the world is on to the apocalypse? Have you gone vegan? Sworn off shish kabobs, or gone with grasshopper/grasshopper/bell pepper/cricket/onion? Converted to a heat pump? Sold your gas-powered vehicle? Tithed to the gods of green energy (15%, minimum I would expect)? Moved to a green energy commune? If you're like most people, you've probably not done much at all---but if you did, good for you for living your beliefs. Sincerely, I mean that. I live mine as best I can. I'm mindful of waste, mindful of the environment, invest in certain ESG funds that interest me, and push on. I do acknowledge throwing styrofoam in the regular trash the other day--the recyclable can was chock full with the remnants of Amazon/UPS boxes. I had a long post I deleted. Not worth it. I don’t blame you for questioning stuff. If you Don’t to believe in global warming based on party lines I can’t change your mind. (Of course I’m assuming you’re Republican? I could be wrong.) Edited April 12 by 4th&long
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted April 12 Posted April 12 11 hours ago, 4th&long said: I had a long post I deleted. Not worth it. I don’t blame you for questioning stuff. If you Don’t to believe in global warming based on party lines I can’t change your mind. (Of course I’m assuming you’re Republican? I could be wrong.) Thank you. 1
4th&long Posted April 12 Posted April 12 26 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Thank you. The crib notes of my post was yes we have a heat pump, recycle, wife is a vegan, I’m getting there. Do whatever else we reasonably can. I will not buy an electric car they are a scam. I’m still mad Dodge stopped making the challenger. I wanted to kill myself in the 800 horsepower hell cat one day. i do like you screen name, love that band.
All_Pro_Bills Posted April 12 Posted April 12 11 hours ago, 4th&long said: I had a long post I deleted. Not worth it. I don’t blame you for questioning stuff. If you Don’t to believe in global warming based on party lines I can’t change your mind. (Of course I’m assuming you’re Republican? I could be wrong.) For me, the bigger issue of the climate change debate is the popular solution to the problem. The idea of replacing oil and gas, hydrocarbon energy sources with clean and renewable energy sources such as wind and solar electricity generation. I think that solutions is completely incapable of supporting human civilization at its current size and scale. The idea were going to replace all the cheap and efficient energy produced by hydrocarbons with wind and solar is a fantasy. I'd love to see a proof of concept community of about 100,000 people living a life completely devoid of oil and gas and exclusively run on renewables. My expectation is such a demonstration would be a complete flop and a wake up call to get serious. Along with exposing the idea as folly to most people. I think the actual agenda of the elites running climate policy is they've determined there are just too many people on the planet and "they" need to get rid of maybe 50 to 75 percent of them and it don't matter to them if they get rid of Democrats, Republicans, or Independents. 1
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted April 12 Posted April 12 25 minutes ago, 4th&long said: The crib notes of my post was yes we have a heat pump, recycle, wife is a vegan, I’m getting there. Do whatever else we reasonably can. I will not buy an electric car they are a scam. I’m still mad Dodge stopped making the challenger. I wanted to kill myself in the 800 horsepower hell cat one day. i do like you screen name, love that band. One of the first album purchases I ever made, sadly not long after the plane crash. @muppy saw them at Rich Stadium, as did a good friend of mine. I was a late to the table so I missed it. Good for you for doing what you can. If I think long and hard enough on meat consumption, there are days when I think I could go vegetarian…then I eat some good wings. Or a BLT. Or whatever. So, on your issue with electric vehicles, assume you’re correct and the policy issue is indeed a scam. Extrapolate a bit—-and I see @All_Pro_Bills has done a much better job than I can highlighting his thoughts above—-and consider other policy initiatives and you begin to understand that how you get to be declared a climate heretic when you question the narrative. Welcome to the club. 2 1
Tommy Callahan Posted April 12 Posted April 12 Lol when blaming the wildfires on global warming. I guess man made part fits as many are due to arsons like the ones that covered by last year
All_Pro_Bills Posted April 12 Posted April 12 1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: One of the first album purchases I ever made, sadly not long after the plane crash. @muppy saw them at Rich Stadium, as did a good friend of mine. I was a late to the table so I missed it. Good for you for doing what you can. If I think long and hard enough on meat consumption, there are days when I think I could go vegetarian…then I eat some good wings. Or a BLT. Or whatever. So, on your issue with electric vehicles, assume you’re correct and the policy issue is indeed a scam. Extrapolate a bit—-and I see @All_Pro_Bills has done a much better job than I can highlighting his thoughts above—-and consider other policy initiatives and you begin to understand that how you get to be declared a climate heretic when you question the narrative. Welcome to the club. I saw the original line up of Skynyrd a couple times in my youth in Buffalo at the old Century Theater downtown and a year or two later at the Aud. It was maybe 10 years ago I saw the revised line up of the band at MSG where they opened for Kid Rock. My favorite album was Second Helping followed by Street Survivors, and then the first album. Street Survivors was released just prior to the plane crash. The original cover depicted the band members surrounded by flames. After the accident, the MCA Records rushed to remove copies with the original cover from stores and replaced it with one without the flames surrounding the band. If you have an original copy with the original cover it would be somewhat rare. 1
4th&long Posted April 12 Posted April 12 1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: One of the first album purchases I ever made, sadly not long after the plane crash. @muppy saw them at Rich Stadium, as did a good friend of mine. I was a late to the table so I missed it. Good for you for doing what you can. If I think long and hard enough on meat consumption, there are days when I think I could go vegetarian…then I eat some good wings. Or a BLT. Or whatever. So, on your issue with electric vehicles, assume you’re correct and the policy issue is indeed a scam. Extrapolate a bit—-and I see @All_Pro_Bills has done a much better job than I can highlighting his thoughts above—-and consider other policy initiatives and you begin to understand that how you get to be declared a climate heretic when you question the narrative. Welcome to the club. At this point are they not still using fossil fuels to make electricity? 90 minutes to charge your car when you do find a charger that fits the car you own. The batteries that they are destroying the earth to make that weigh a ton and destroy your tires. That and I can’t imagine hitting the pedal to hear the roar of the engine? I don’t know it all, half that could be wrong, it’s not like I sit around studying it. I’m sure one day electric cars might be good but I’ll be long gone I’m sure.
ScotSHO Posted April 12 Posted April 12 19 minutes ago, Roundybout said: Or, has the Insurance Industry taken advantage of the public's viewpoint to increase their shareholder's wealth and reduce their liabilities, when in the past they would have paid out more in damages? And I thought you wanted to better regulate the greedy billionaires?
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted April 12 Posted April 12 2 hours ago, Roundybout said: "Quietly dropping" in the "we're telling everyone" mode. Tricky. 1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said: I saw the original line up of Skynyrd a couple times in my youth in Buffalo at the old Century Theater downtown and a year or two later at the Aud. It was maybe 10 years ago I saw the revised line up of the band at MSG where they opened for Kid Rock. My favorite album was Second Helping followed by Street Survivors, and then the first album. Street Survivors was released just prior to the plane crash. The original cover depicted the band members surrounded by flames. After the accident, the MCA Records rushed to remove copies with the original cover from stores and replaced it with one without the flames surrounding the band. If you have an original copy with the original cover it would be somewhat rare. My friend (the concert goer) had the Street Survivor's album with the flames on the album cover. It was quite creepy for a youngster with an overactive imagination. Right up there with Keith Moon is sitting on the Who Are You album in a chair with the words "Not to be taken away".
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted April 12 Posted April 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, 4th&long said: At this point are they not still using fossil fuels to make electricity? 90 minutes to charge your car when you do find a charger that fits the car you own. The batteries that they are destroying the earth to make that weigh a ton and destroy your tires. That and I can’t imagine hitting the pedal to hear the roar of the engine? I don’t know it all, half that could be wrong, it’s not like I sit around studying it. I’m sure one day electric cars might be good but I’ll be long gone I’m sure. There is that, of course. We hold our "Climate Change Conspiracy Book Club" the 3rd Sunday of every month at the Starbucks on Delaware Ave. All are welcome. Edited April 12 by leh-nerd skin-erd 1
4th&long Posted April 12 Posted April 12 12 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: There is that, of course. We hold our "Climate Change Conspiracy Book Club" the 3rd Sunday of every month at the Starbucks on Delaware Ave. All are welcome. Lol now that is funny!
4th&long Posted April 12 Posted April 12 4 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said: For me, the bigger issue of the climate change debate is the popular solution to the problem. The idea of replacing oil and gas, hydrocarbon energy sources with clean and renewable energy sources such as wind and solar electricity generation. I think that solutions is completely incapable of supporting human civilization at its current size and scale. The idea were going to replace all the cheap and efficient energy produced by hydrocarbons with wind and solar is a fantasy. I'd love to see a proof of concept community of about 100,000 people living a life completely devoid of oil and gas and exclusively run on renewables. My expectation is such a demonstration would be a complete flop and a wake up call to get serious. Along with exposing the idea as folly to most people. I think the actual agenda of the elites running climate policy is they've determined there are just too many people on the planet and "they" need to get rid of maybe 50 to 75 percent of them and it don't matter to them if they get rid of Democrats, Republicans, or Independents. I’m not sure that it’s cheap. I don’t see “completely replacing “ anything. But supplementing? Sure why not? Why not try to do what we can? Are we going to just stop advancing tech? The next thing I would like to do is get a solar panel on my house and tell the electric company to go ***** themselves. But I’m not sure solar is there yet either?
ComradeKayAdams Posted April 12 Posted April 12 (edited) On 4/11/2024 at 10:05 AM, Orlando Tim said: I should not have called you nuts, that is definitely my mistake. You are one of the people here who always respond with a well thought out response and I regret posting that. I will blame it on dealing high schoolers all day. To the science part: I hate extrapolation because it always starts from your assumption. You are arguing that the stratosphere and troposphere going in different directions is a historical outlier, but truly we don't know. What was the stratosphere and troposphere doing in the last ice age? We can only guess. When I was in high school in the 1990s I was told the finger lakes were carved by glaciers, but I have been informed by my nephews that is not the belief anymore. But you and I have one major difference which we will never bridge- I don't trust government to enact meaningful change. Lowering pollution is a good thing but not at the cost of stopping our economy. Politicians main goal is to get re elected, and that is why California is a mess despite being an "environmental" state. But we’re doing so much more than mere guessing! The theme of these climate science discussions should be “data confluence.” The confluence of data is what gives us our confidence in the consensus science. With respect to the stratosphere topic, we have all of the following support: 1. Predictive theories based on very well-established physics subfields (mostly stat mech and a/m/o physics, mixed in with some fluid mech at the troposphere below, plasma physics at the ionosphere above, and a delightful dash of basic quantum mech throughout). 2. Computational models whose guiding equations are based on the aforementioned theories. 3. Tabletop experiments of the atmosphere layers, analogous in spirit to what aeronautical engineers do with scale modeling in wind tunnels. 4. Direct measurements taken from air balloons and satellites over the past century, which NACA and later NASA recorded. I’ll argue that the structural simplicity of the stratosphere is what further increases our confidence. At steady-state conditions, it’s basically an altitude-dependent thermodynamic system of temperature, pressure, and gaseous composition (nitrogen, oxygen/ozone, and a few trace gases). There’s very little water vapor, carbon dioxide, or air turbulence to complicate things. You have typical transient behavior and diffusion at boundary layers, but nothing that can individually explain a global temperature variation trend sustained on the order of several decades! So there’s nothing wrong with extrapolation when your assumptions are so strong. Historical behavioral extrapolation comes down to two basic cases, each unassailable without some sort of paradigm-shifting explanation from physics or atmospheric science: 1. Uniform temperature growth in each atmospheric layer, due to solar activity. 2. Inverse temperature growth, divergent at the stratosphere-troposphere boundary, due to major volcanic emissions or life-induced (i.e. plants, microbes, humans) changes to atmospheric composition that, in turn, alter the greenhouse effect. P.S. Your apology is kindly accepted, though it wasn’t necessary to offer one! The prerequisite for PPP subforum participation should be a thick skin. All of us here have failed the mantra of “attack the message, not the messenger” from time to time. It happens often enough that the subforum moderator** has given up moderating personal attacks. P.S.P.S. The Finger Lakes were likely ancient river valleys. Glaciers from the most recent ice age likely carved them further into their current form. (P.S.) x 3: I trust government and politicians about as much as I do private corporations. Trust is earned with proof over time, buttressed with systems of oversight and power checks/balances. ** - His moderating presence, in fact, is so light that some have suggested he’s not even technically a moderator!! << Commie Kay shockface emoji >> But um…I’ve already said too much, lest I be banished to an even lower Dante-esque forum circle of heck than PPP, with nothing but a red stapler in hand. EDIT: Additional notes on extrapolation case #2: “Major volcanic emissions” was more a reference to Earth’s volatile early atmospheric history, not to random individual volcano eruptions. Effects from isolated cases of meteorites and major wildfires can be similarly transient. Certain human-generated industrial air pollutants can actually mitigate the stratosphere cooling effect from greenhouse gases. Edited April 15 by ComradeKayAdams 1
4th&long Posted April 12 Posted April 12 10 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: One of the first album purchases I ever made, sadly not long after the plane crash. @muppy saw them at Rich Stadium, as did a good friend of mine. I was a late to the table so I missed it. Good for you for doing what you can. If I think long and hard enough on meat consumption, there are days when I think I could go vegetarian…then I eat some good wings. Or a BLT. Or whatever. So, on your issue with electric vehicles, assume you’re correct and the policy issue is indeed a scam. Extrapolate a bit—-and I see @All_Pro_Bills has done a much better job than I can highlighting his thoughts above—-and consider other policy initiatives and you begin to understand that how you get to be declared a climate heretic when you question the narrative. Welcome to the club. I’m the same way with wings or meat lovers pizza. But I am trying to get away from meat more because I’m worried about what they are putting in it. Whatever they are putting in it to make them grow is making me grow! I gained weight installing flooring and going to the gym. It can’t be all age can it?🥴 1
Pokebball Posted April 12 Posted April 12 (edited) 10 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: One of the first album purchases I ever made, sadly not long after the plane crash. @muppy saw them at Rich Stadium, as did a good friend of mine. I was a late to the table so I missed it. Saw 'em three times. They, The Allman Bros and Marshall Tucker. Dang good musicians! Edited April 12 by Pokebball 1
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