Mark80 Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 (edited) It would be great to look at the old Geno Smith thread before the draft when many posters were almost 100% certain that he'd be the #1 overall pick and certainly, if not #1 overall, a first round quality talent. They pointed to his amazing WVU stats which were, admittadely, very impressive. However, they failed to take into account his complete lack of competition in the Big East at the time and the huge focus on getting the ball in to players like Austin's hands through screens and shuffle passes. When I pointed this out at the time and said that I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't go in the first round, I was called an idiot. All you needed to do was watch a single game against a quality opponent to see this coming a mile away. This whole thread is kind of hilarious. It's like a bunch of Vikings fans saying, "I can't believe the stupid Jags drafted Blaine Gabbert in 2011. We were so lucky to get out of there with Christian Ponder." #potcallingkettleblack #hewholivesinaglasshouseshouldntthrowstones EJ has thrown 16 TDs to 12 INTs and has a record of 6-8 as a starter and would most likely be 7-7 had he finished the Browns game last year. That's completely different than 19:31 ratio and 9-15 record. Anyone who can't see that is completely blinded by their hatred of EJ. Edited November 20, 2014 by Mark80
prissythecat Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 Where we differ is that I liked (and still do) "the types of player that Da'Rick or Jasper are."You can go back through those 100 pages and see how many times that is referenced. The last few spots on my roster wouldn't be used on someone like Larry Dean. I try to hit home runs and the worst case scenario is you miss out on a Larry Dean. Those guys are a dime a dozen. I thought it was Chris Hogan who was a dime a dozen ;-)
Kirby Jackson Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 (edited) I thought it was Chris Hogan who was a dime a dozen ;-) He is. I will say that he has proven me wrong in that he belongs on an NFL roster but he is by no means irreplaceable. He is a below average NFL WR (which is way better than I thought he would ever achieve). EJ has thrown 16 TDs to 12 INTs and has a record of 6-8 as a starter and would most likely be 7-7 had he finished the Browns game last year. That's completely different than 19:31 ratio and 9-15 record. Anyone who can't see that is completely blinded by their hatred of EJ. Oh good, EJ's stats. I stand corrected!! He alone handed away the Houston game this year. He has more wins because he has played with a better team!!!! For one, I haven't been an EJ hater (check the history). I gave him a chance and he has proven inccappable of it. To this day I do not remember anyone bringing up QBs that had an improvement in accuracy or that went through their progressions faster. If there are any it is few and far between so why do people think that he will fall into that small minority? People that defend him ignore things like QBR and cite some garbage TD:INT ratio of 16:12 in 14 games. Is that supposed to impress us? Let's not confuse blind hope with what the tape has shown us. Edited November 20, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 He is. I will say that he has proven me wrong in that he belongs on an NFL roster but he is by no means irreplaceable. He is a below average NFL WR (which is way better than I thought he would ever achieve). Oh good, EJ's stats. I stand corrected!! He alone handed away the Houston game this year. He has more wins because he has played with a better team!!!! For one, I haven't been an EJ hater (check the history). I gave him a chance and he has proven inccappable of it. To this day I do not remember anyone bringing up QBs that had an improvement in accuracy or that went through their progressions faster. If there are any it is few and far between so why do people think that he will fall into that small minority? People that defend him ignore things like QBR and cite some garbage TD:INT ratio of 16:12 in 14 games. Is that supposed to impress us? Let's not confuse blind hope with what the tape has shown us. 14 games is giving someone a chance? And never more than 5 in a row? And if Hogan played with Brady, he'd be a 1,000 yard receiver. If anything, Hogan is an elite talent. Leading scorer at a D1 Lacrosse school, played one year of defense in college, and now is a 3rd receiver in the NFL. He also got voted most conditioned player on the team and does reps of 275 lbs. Bench. Hogan has won at life while people make excuses for "more talented players" like Rogers who are sitting in their couches. Chip Kelly made Sanchise look sooooo good. Thank god you're back. One of the best offensive coaches in the league traded for Gabbert? I didn't realize the 18th ranked offense is "one of the best." Dude, you're a clown. You are the only person on earth who pimps Marrone and tries to knock Harbaugh and Kelly. Yeah, Harbaugh has only been to a SB and 3 title games in 3 years. Clearly, he had no idea what he is doing. And it'd suck to have a top 5 offense like the Eagles have. You're bored again?
Kirby Jackson Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 14 games is giving someone a chance? And never more than 5 in a row? This is kind of my point. No one ever addresses his accuracy or slow eyes they just say how many games that he has played. At what point is it safe to assume that those things aren't going to improve? It isn't like his issues are things that people develop. You can develop arm strength; I've never seen anyone develop accuracy. It has nothing to do with how much of a chance that he has gotten and everything to do with what his flaws are. It's like saying a WR is slow, maybe he will develop speed? You can do things to inch a little closer but you aren't going from a 4.6 to a 4.3 with some drills. Certain issues are correctable and others aren't.
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 This is kind of my point. No one ever addresses his accuracy or slow eyes they just say how many games that he has played. At what point is it safe to assume that those things aren't going to improve? It isn't like his issues are things that people develop. You can develop arm strength; I've never seen anyone develop accuracy. It has nothing to do with how much of a chance that he has gotten and everything to do with what his flaws are. It's like saying a WR is slow, maybe he will develop speed? You can do things to inch a little closer but you aren't going from a 4.6 to a 4.3 with some drills. Certain issues are correctable and others aren't. You seem pretty knowledgable so I won't go over the tons of examples of Qbs that struggled early in their careers and turned it around. Almost all will say the game starts to slow down. How people can say what a qb will be after 14 games is beyond me. Honest question. If the Eagles drafted EJ, do you think he is the same player? Coaching matters, especially at the qb position. Leaving Nate Hackett to develop a qb is a joke. It's hard to bet on a qb but I think EJ will find a place in this league if he gets in the right situation.
FireChan Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 14 games is giving someone a chance? And never more than 5 in a row? And if Hogan played with Brady, he'd be a 1,000 yard receiver. If anything, Hogan is an elite talent. Leading scorer at a D1 Lacrosse school, played one year of defense in college, and now is a 3rd receiver in the NFL. He also got voted most conditioned player on the team and does reps of 275 lbs. Bench. Hogan has won at life while people make excuses for "more talented players" like Rogers who are sitting in their couches. Dude, you're a clown. You are the only person on earth who pimps Marrone and tries to knock Harbaugh and Kelly. Yeah, Harbaugh has only been to a SB and 3 title games in 3 years. Clearly, he had no idea what he is doing. And it'd suck to have a top 5 offense like the Eagles have. You're bored again? The script changes. First it was Chip Kelly can make any quarterback look good. And then it was except Vick. And now except Vick and Sanchez aka 2 of his 3 QB's. And Jim Harbaugh is a great offensive coach. Except when his offense is below average. Every coach you pump up seems to prove your praise wrong. Please start saying that Bill Belichick is a great coach and they always prepare very well for the Bills in week 17. Thanks.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 You seem pretty knowledgable so I won't go over the tons of examples of Qbs that struggled early in their careers and turned it around. Almost all will say the game starts to slow down. How people can say what a qb will be after 14 games is beyond me. Honest question. If the Eagles drafted EJ, do you think he is the same player? Coaching matters, especially at the qb position. Leaving Nate Hackett to develop a qb is a joke. It's hard to bet on a qb but I think EJ will find a place in this league if he gets in the right situation. I don't disagree at all that he has been dealt a rough hand (a really rough hand). He was never put in a situation to succeed. There are guys that develop and the game slows down but I think that EJ has a pretty good grasp of the offense at this point. The biggest knock (at least from McShay) on him coming out were his "slow eyes." It just takes him longer to go through his progressions. Accuracy is what it is and you either have it or you don't. The guys that seem to develop later in their careers seem to be guys that are accurate, game manager types. I mean that as a compliment not an insult. Alex Smith, Jeff Garcia and Rich Gannon come to mind.
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 I don't disagree at all that he has been dealt a rough hand (a really rough hand). He was never put in a situation to succeed. There are guys that develop and the game slows down but I think that EJ has a pretty good grasp of the offense at this point. The biggest knock (at least from McShay) on him coming out were his "slow eyes." It just takes him longer to go through his progressions. Accuracy is what it is and you either have it or you don't. The guys that seem to develop later in their careers seem to be guys that are accurate, game manager types. I mean that as a compliment not an insult. Alex Smith, Jeff Garcia and Rich Gannon come to mind. Fair points. My counter. 1) McShay once touted jevan Snead as a 1st round pick. He's by no means an expert. 2) Smith was a 50% and 49% passer early in his career. 3) Just remember the Hogan/ Rogers debate. Things can change with time.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 Fair points. My counter. 1) McShay once touted jevan Snead as a 1st round pick. He's by no means an expert. 2) Smith was a 50% and 49% passer early in his career. 3) Just remember the Hogan/ Rogers debate. Things can change with time. Ha ha, fair enough I really want the guy to be good because he has a lot of the intangibles that you need. Look it his character vs. that idiot that followed him at FSU!! EJ is a pro with a great attitude. I really like the person just don't believe in the player.
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 Ha ha, fair enough I really want the guy to be good because he has a lot of the intangibles that you need. Look it his character vs. that idiot that followed him at FSU!! EJ is a pro with a great attitude. I really like the person just don't believe in the player. Haha. Agreed. If anything, EJ probably benefit from a little more of the Winston/ Johnny Bench attitude. He seems like he is trying to please people too much. But I have much higher hopes for him than Geno. The second Smith couldn't figure out West coast time, I was out on him. So dumb.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 Haha. Agreed. If anything, EJ probably benefit from a little more of the Winston/ Johnny Bench attitude. He seems like he is trying to please people too much. But I have much higher hopes for him than Geno. The second Smith couldn't figure out West coast time, I was out on him. So dumb. That's just who EJ is. He is a great kid from a great family. I don't think that Geno has a prayer of ever being a player. I was hoping to face him twice a year but it looks like that is gone forever.
GunnerBill Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 To this day I do not remember anyone bringing up QBs that had an improvement in accuracy or that went through their progressions faster. If there are any it is few and far between so why do people think that he will fall into that small minority? Hmmmm. Improving accuracy I actually agree with. I don't agree on getting through progressions faster at all though. I think most Quarterbacks who stick in the NFL improve drastically in that regard as their careers develop. Go watch some early Big Ben tape or some early Brady or in particular some early Alex Smith. They all get through their progressions a lot faster now than they did as 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players.
YoloinOhio Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 You must have missed the Tampa game in 2013. didnt miss it. Still not worse than Geno last 2 times v Bills.
boyst Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 meh, you had TJ Graham in the HOF, everybody has at least one. Nah. Never the HOF just a good 3rd or 4th.
YoloinOhio Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Nah. Never the HOF just a good 3rd or 4th. TJ is going to probably catch 3 TDs on Monday. Because Bills.
GunnerBill Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 TJ is going to probably catch 3 TDs on Monday. Because Bills. TJ? Catch? Doesn't sound likely.
NoSaint Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 Hmmmm. Improving accuracy I actually agree with. I don't agree on getting through progressions faster at all though. I think most Quarterbacks who stick in the NFL improve drastically in that regard as their careers develop. Go watch some early Big Ben tape or some early Brady or in particular some early Alex Smith. They all get through their progressions a lot faster now than they did as 1st, 2nd and 3rd year players. I think even accuracy may be something you see grow some- 1) he had a bum knee last year 2) didn't trust his o line this year 3) when your learning reads and progressions you don't always get target and mechanics right. I know he's never been known for it but in some of the drills and things like sport science wasn't his arm right there with the most accurate? That would indicate some of his on field accuracy issues are picking targets (was he coached to miss safe last year on deep balls?), and trusting (receivers, blockers, himself). Not saying he gets there, just that I don't believe it's impossible.
GunnerBill Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 I think his accuracy was patchy too. I don't think he was always inaccurate so there is some scope for his to get more consistent in his accuracy but I don't expect he is ever going to be accurate in the sense that the elite guys are where a majority of their balls are in places that only their guy can go up and catch.
boyst Posted November 21, 2014 Posted November 21, 2014 TJ is going to probably catch 3 TDs on Monday. Because Bills. If he was playing in Buf he would be catching snowballs.
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