YoloinOhio Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 Worth a read. IMO a lot of what Trapasso says aligns with my POV but even if you don't agree, you may see some solid points made. @ChrisTrapasso: Here's my column on the #Bills QB situation ---> http://t.co/upviJstV8c
Mr. WEO Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 Not much that hasn't been repeated by many here over months.
A Dog Named Kelso Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 Worth a read. IMO a lot of what Trapasso says aligns with my POV but even if you don't agree, you may see some solid points made. @ChrisTrapasso: Here's my column on the #Bills QB situation ---> http://t.co/upviJstV8c I do not think anyone would disagree with what was writing the problem I see is in this paragraph: Coaches and Manuel himself have admitted his greatest “flaw” has been a conservative playing style and not “letting it rip.” The only way he’ll learn to let it rip is by playing, not by watching film with Orton and holding the clipboard on Sundays. I truly believe the conservative playing style Has been coached into him ... and perhaps Orton too at this point. I think that is how Marrone wants to play ... "whatever you do don't make a mistake" football.
YoloinOhio Posted November 19, 2014 Author Posted November 19, 2014 I do not think anyone would disagree with what was writing the problem I see is in this paragraph: I truly believe the conservative playing style Has been coached into him ... and perhaps Orton too at this point. I think that is how Marrone wants to play ... "whatever you do don't make a mistake" football. i think other QBs are coached this way as well - Alex Smith and Brian Hoyer come to mind. With them it works, though.
thewildrabbit Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 I'm rather glad this coaching staff benched EJ, as I'd really rather not see him completely ruined before a new offensive staff that actually knows what they are doing takes over. I happen to like Kyle Orton, just not as the franchise QB for the next ten years. Maybe EJ is, and maybe he isn't. We won't know until next year. The 2014 Bills have shown they are coached on offense by people who don't have a clue how to build a proper offense to win games Anyway, think about last season with three rookie QB's on the roster, and no QB coach or veteran QB to help them. The blind leading the blind.
Best Player Available Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 I'm rather glad this coaching staff benched EJ, as I'd really rather not see him completely ruined before a new offensive staff that actually knows what they are doing takes over. I happen to like Kyle Orton, just not as the franchise QB for the next ten years. Maybe EJ is, and maybe he isn't. We won't know until next year. The 2014 Bills have shown they are coached on offense by people who don't have a clue how to build a proper offense to win games Anyway, think about last season with three rookie QB's on the roster, and no QB coach or veteran QB to help them. The blind leading the blind. Interesting thoughts, but really since Wade (at least) hasn't the offensive coaching been QB killers all along. I understand Pegs will at some date make a change but will it be the correct one? What are the odds that EJ is a product of crap coaching at the NFL level?I would think his flaws were out there way before the bIlls got their hands on him. in fact had they done their homework they would have known about them in more detail all along before reaching at 16.
NoSaint Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 i think other QBs are coached this way as well - Alex Smith and Brian Hoyer come to mind. With them it works, though. With smith it taking nearly a decade to perfect though.
GunnerBill Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 It is sensible and well reasoned. Not sure I agree with the whole thing but there are definitely some very interesting views. I agree on the rookie QB point in particular.... 2012 was an outlier year and those 3 guys - Luck, RGIII and Wilson were outliers even in that class. Look at this year's class and how EJ's rookie year stacks against them and it is well in there in terms of output. I also think whoever the QB is here is being hurt by the scheme and the offensive coodinator I wasn't against the move to Orton. EJ looked shot in that Houston game, where they go next is a good question. I think you leave Orton in whilst the season is technically alive. Lose this week and EJ should start v Cleveland. My gut feeling, however, is that next season's starting QB is not yet on the roster.
Solomon Grundy Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 I like Trepasso's article and thoughts. Unlike GunnerBill I think EJ will be the QB of the future for this team. He will win over his teammates, once again, by doing whatever it takes to win games. Meaning playing aggressively, using his athletic ability. Being a playmaker for his football team. EJ wants to succeed and be a NFL QB. I like his make up and believe he will achieve his goal.
K-9 Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 i think other QBs are coached this way as well - Alex Smith and Brian Hoyer come to mind. With them it works, though. All QBs, from the time they are in high school, hear a constant mantra of "no negative plays" by their coaches. If and when we get a QB that can routinely take what a defense gives and then takes what he wants when the defense adjusts, we'll see more chances taken. But a lot has to happen even before a QB can put himself in that position, like an OL than knows how to execute, etc. GO BILLS!!!
YoloinOhio Posted November 19, 2014 Author Posted November 19, 2014 All QBs, from the time they are in high school, hear a constant mantra of "no negative plays" by their coaches. If and when we get a QB that can routinely take what a defense gives and then takes what he wants when the defense adjusts, we'll see more chances taken. But a lot has to happen even before a QB can put himself in that position, like an OL than knows how to execute, etc. GO BILLS!!! It also depends what kind of team you are playing on. For example, Bortles and Carr and chucking it up all over the field, result be damned, because they are "rebuilding" anyway. Kind of like Manning's first season, when he went 3-13 and threw all those picks but we were all impressed that he could make all the throws.
K-9 Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 It also depends what kind of team you are playing on. For example, Bortles and Carr and chucking it up all over the field, result be damned, because they are "rebuilding" anyway. Kind of like Manning's first season, when he went 3-13 and threw all those picks but we were all impressed that he could make all the throws. Good point. Coaches in Oakland and Jax have no problem letting their QBs take what a defense is giving as they constantly face teams daring them to beat them with the pass, especially deep. I guess it's easier for coaches when there isn't a perceived reasonable chance to make the playoffs. Still, I don't see Marrone playing like there's no tomorrow. Even when there's no tomorrow. GO BILLS!!!
Kellyto83TD Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 I have said this repeatedly and seems I need to again. When will Bills fans quit getting behind and supporting QB's that clearly do not have it? EJ is not, has not been and no ever will be the answer at QB. You have many of the same scouts still on board scouting QB's that scouted the likes of JP, Trent etal. For nearly 2 decades now all of the QB's that have come along fans get on the bandwagon, drink the kool aid and damn near get into physical altercations to support this guy because the "stats" show he could be something someday when clearly ALL of them are severely lacking. None have had the combination of Leadership skills, Arm strength, touch but most importantly the ability to read defenses and make the Defense adjust to them. Until this happens we won't be seeing a superbowl any time soon AND we will keep going in this same circle over and over and over. Mr. P needs to fire everyone. We have to cut out the "ralph" way of doing things and thinking and get rid of every damn scout we have and start over. But we won't. **** will continue to go as it does, whaley will never admit a mistake and cut EJ and fire most of the scouts and get some people in here and actually find a franchise QB. BTW I am sure I will hear about how hard it is and other teams still haven't found one. To that I say, !@#$ them. I don't give a damn about other teams, it is well past time for the BUFFALO BILLS to find a true Franchise QB no matter the cost.
GunnerBill Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 Fire everyone is not and never has been a reasonable answer to anything.
Solomon Grundy Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 Fire everyone is not and never has been a reasonable answer to anything. Apparently Kelly didn't read Chris's article. Kelly in the article it states that there were a plethora of QBs that people didn't think we're NFL QBs. Some of them won Super Bowls.
atlbillsfan1975 Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 (edited) With smith it taking nearly a decade to perfect though. And good coaching from Harbaugh and Reid. Edited November 19, 2014 by atlbillsfan1975
bigK14094 Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 I read it....but I am a season ticket holder and have seen Manuel play a lot. Manuel does not have pro accuracy.. Can't throw the deep ball at all, and he "lost" his receivers during the 2014 season/first four games. The gestures after he missed them told it all. Marrone took the heat for the decision, but Manuel lost the receiver core....and they were excited to have Orton be the starter. Further, it was not necessary to have a limited playbook so Manuel could succeed...Orton the veteran could absorb the whole thing after 4 weeks with the team. I would further comment that if Orton had been with the Bills in training camp, he would have been the starter out of camp. Remember, the plan was for Kolb to play the first year...and let EJ learn by sitting...ala Aaron Rogers at Green Bay (3 seasons) I honestly think, if EJ is ever to succeed, he needs to sit awhile and get mentally ready. I remain skeptical he has the arm.....however, and, if I were making the choice, I would give him only one more season to show himself. After that......adious if he isn't clearly an NFL QB....and it sure isn't obvious now.
A Dog Named Kelso Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 If EJ played the whole game the way he plays in the final two minutes, I think he would(will) be a success. He knows then that its "do or die" time and doesn't care if he slings it.
thewildrabbit Posted November 19, 2014 Posted November 19, 2014 Then look back at this singular season, and see who had absolutely horrid games, but then managed to get it together later on to have some stellar games. NE at Miami with a loss 33-20 to the Dolphins were they sacked Brady 4x, and NE had 9 penalties. Then the Patriots went to KC, and Brady looked like utter crap on MNF losing at Arrowhead 41-14. All the Patriot fans bemoaning that Brady was done, that the dynasty was gone. Think what would have happened if Brady had been benched! here is how that game went for NE, PUNT PUNT PUNT PUNT FUMBLE INTERCEPTION TD INTERCEPTION TD PUNT Jay Cutler of the bears had a horrendous game against Green Bay, and came back big to win this week. Andy Dalton had the most incredibly bad game against Cleveland 33 attempts, 10 completions for 86 yards, 3 INTs. worst game for a QB with a passer rating of 2.0. 2.6 yards per attempt. Now think where the Bengals would be if they benched him, as he just quarterbacked the win for Cincy in a very tough place to win in New Orleans. Trust me when I say we really don't fully know what EJ is fully capable of as he was being coached by morons who don't know the difference between a lineman who shouldn't be on the team, and a decent player. Lets not forget that mr stupid can't Hackett had EJ throwing almost double the runs 44 vs 23. Was EJ wild with his passes, and mostly ineffective? You Bet! But then so was Orton his last game. They are both products of crappy coaching.
Wing Man Posted November 20, 2014 Posted November 20, 2014 At the end of last season, I built a spreadsheet to see how quarterbacks who went on to win Super Bowls did in their first year (which I defined as being the one where they started at least half of games in that season) versus EJ Manuel's opening season. Manuel finished middle of the pack among the 30 by QBR, surely a duplicitous statistic if there ever was one. If you extrapolated Manuel's 10 game campaign out to 16 games, he would have finished with 288-490 3155 yds, 18 TDs 14 INTs and a QBR of 77.7, good enough for 15th on that list of Super Bowl quarterbacks. Payton Manning threw for more yards and more touchdowns (26), but also threw 28 INTs (QBR 71.2). Among the bottom feeders were two quarterbacks who won three Super Bowls against us: Joe Theismann and Troy Aikman. Aikman was really awful: 155-293 (52.9%) 1749 yds, 9 TDs 18 INTs in 11 starts and an 0-11 record in those games. Theismann fared little better: 187-390 (47.95%) 2593 yds 13 TDs 18 INTs in 14 starts, at least he was 7-7. Worse still, 2 time Super Bowl winner John Elway: 123-259 (47.49%) 1663 yds 7 TDs 14 INTs, winning 4 of 10 starts, and 4 time Super Bowl winner Terry Bradshaw: 83-218 (38.07%) 1410 yds 6 TDs 24 INTs, who somehow won 3 of 8 starts. But the thing that stood out to me most was the quarterbacks who started their first season out of college. Based on 13 Super Bowl QBs who started right out of college (by QBR), Manuel would place 4th right in front of Johnny Unitas. Peyton Manning, Aikman, Elway, and Bradshaw all started from behind center in season 1. Of Aikman, Elway, and especially Bradshaw, no one would describe them as being accurate. It may be hard to win in the NFL, but it's harder without a year holding a clipboard. There are the freaks of nature, Russell Wilson, Ben Roethlisberger, and Joe Flacco, but that's three quarterbacks among hundreds drafted over the years. Even if you throw in the whole thirty, that's still a pittance compared to the number drafted over the last fifty years. Jim Kelly's numbers exceeded Manuel's his first year in the NFL but he had two years of "semi-pro" in the USFL where he lit up the league. I'd argue that he would have been magnificent as a rookie even if he hadn't spent two years in exile. Win-loss records of rookie quarterback can be misleading as well since the ones who were the most highly touted in the draft often went to the teams with the worst supporting cast. Hence, while Kelly had a great first season, the team still went 4-12. I'm not sure Manuel was much more fortunate as he went 4-6 and was one horrible Atlanta finish from being 5-5 that was completely out of his control. I'm not saying that Manuel is the saviour of the Bills franchise. He looks genuinely dreadful a good part of the time. But he deserves more than 14 games to prove his true worth.
Recommended Posts