ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 OK, how many times have you seen a team kneel down at the end of the first half a time or two because they don't have good field position, and then both teams start jogging off the field with less than 30 seconds on the clock (so that there is no requirement to snap it again). So if you are the team on offense, and the defense has no time outs left at the end of the first half, why not do this? First, alert the officials before the game starts what you plan to do if the situation arises. When the time comes, run at least one kneel down play, time the kneel down so that you still have about 30 seconds left on the clock, and have your offense start jogging off the field like you don't intend to run another play. Head coach takes off his headset, and all the coaches and trainers also start jogging towards the locker room (or collecting miscellaneous stuff if there's some rule that requires them to stay off the field). But you keep 11 scrubs on the sideline ready to go, looking disinterested. Maybe they are 8 defensive guys and our three kickers - - everybody knows kickers are weird anyway. For these 11 guys, maybe they are drinking gatorade, maybe one seems to have an equipment problem, somebody else is on a stationary bike - - anything that makes them look like they have some reason to not quite be heading to the locker room just yet. At about 15 seconds left on the first half clock, the regular offensive team guys and coaches start to sprint to get off the field, and the 11 scrub guys sprint to the line of scrimmage, and run a play (heck any running play would do) with about 3 or 4 seconds left. Shouldn't be too hard to make sure that the 11 guys running the play have the correct numbers for the positions where they line up. With any luck, they're gonna run the play against air, so who cares what skill sets they have. Maybe increase deception by having the 11 scrub guys start farther away from the locker room and/or jog slowly, so that they just happen to be at the line of scrimmage with 10 seconds left and don't have to sprint anywhere. I can think of two potential rule problems: 1. Do players who ran the last kneel down play have to leave the field on the same side as their teams bench? If so, make sure that the sprint at the 15 second mark takes them off the field toward their own bench rather than through the end zone. 2. Possible bigger problem - - if the offense substitutes, doesn't the referee have to give the defense time to substitute as well? But is there a way around this? What if nobody from the other team is trying to substitute, because they don't expect another play? Is there some time limit after which the referee says, OK, defensive team had time to substitute if they wished, but chose not to do so, so I'm gonna let the offense snap it? If the substitution rule is an insurmountable hurdle, then just have EVERYBODY start jogging off the field, and at the 15 second mark the same 11 guys that ran the last kneel down sprint back to the line of scrimmage and run a play, while everybody else (including coaches) sprints out of the end zone and off the field (or better yet, just times their jog to be all the way off the field before the next snap). 3. Can you increase the deception by having the QB who took the last kneel down jog off the field, and snap the ball at 3 seconds left on the first half clock with one of the remaining 10 guys at the QB position? Is it a penalty for the offense to snap the ball with 10 guys on the field? Not sure, but I don't think so. If you snap it with five lineman, and a non-QB skill position guy at the QB spot, do you need anything else for a legal offensive formation? As long as all of those guys were on the field for the last kneel-down, seems like there's no substitution rule to worry about. 4. OK, this is chicken s**t stuff, but we haven't had a really good QB in a long time, so we gotta figure out a way to score more points without one. It's really sad how we are wasting this defense. 5. Belichick is supposedly great at imparting situational awareness to his players, but I bet even his guys wouldn't be ready for this one. 6. If nothing else, the commotion would be hysterical entertainment, right up there with the Cal/Stanford game where the trombone player got trucked. So run it when we've been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. Flame away, but any actual rules input would be appreciated - - especially for (1) the absolute minimum number of offensive players that must be on the field at the snap for a play to be legal, (2) any restrictions on where offensive players must leave the field after the next-to-last play of the first half, and (3) what the referee is required to do if the offense substitutes and there is nobody even around to decide if the defense wants to make an allowed substitution of its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 No idea about the rules, maybe the D would be penalized for no players on the field. Good lord, if this was possible, I'd love to see it. Preferably against the Pats to take a lead, because the fallout would be glorious. I can imagine the Belicheck presser now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I won't comment on realism or should. One major problem could be too many players in the huddle. Granted there isnt one but something says this rule could be imparted. Even if you have player fake come on and off, I inagine if they come on the field even prior to the snap it could constitute. You have Fred or CH take the snap. It's ab option play so depending on what the defense is ready for they can do what they want. Yes any offensive substitution has to give time to the defense. Remember the Schiano debacle where they actually went after the kneel down for a fumble. It wasn't well received. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I like it. I think you could even maybe just keep the coaches and everyone else on the sidelines. Have the players just jog down the sidelines and the starters jog off the field. When the other team starts to jog off, have your scrubs run in. You can run a legal play with less than 11 men on the field. The longest run from scrimmage in NFL history of 99 yards by Tony Dorsett only had 10 men on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 No idea about the rules, maybe the D would be penalized for no players on the field. Good lord, if this was possible, I'd love to see it. Preferably against the Pats to take a lead, because the fallout would be glorious. I can imagine the Belicheck presser now. Never against Bellicheck. The last thing I want is to have to deal with a full half against an angry Bill and Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddogblitz Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) Remember the Schiano debacle where they actually went after the kneel down for a fumble. It wasn't well received. Seahawks tried this in game one and almost got it. If you're within 8 points this is what you should do. I have never understood why teams give up and don't even try in this situation. Who cares if it's well received as long as it's legal. Back to the original question: As Mango states, letting the D substitute may be a problem. But who says you have to sub. Just have your QB and a couple of guys start to trot off and and all the players on the sidelines. Once the D start to trot off, spring back and snap it. I'm sure there is a way this could work. It's brilliant. Edited November 18, 2014 by reddogblitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 Never against Bellicheck. The last thing I want is to have to deal with a full half against an angry Bill and Tom You're right. We'd lose by a thousand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 OK, how many times have you seen a team kneel down at the end of the first half a time or two because they don't have good field position, and then both teams start jogging off the field with less than 30 seconds on the clock (so that there is no requirement to snap it again). So if you are the team on offense, and the defense has no time outs left at the end of the first half, why not do this? First, alert the officials before the game starts what you plan to do if the situation arises. When the time comes, run at least one kneel down play, time the kneel down so that you still have about 30 seconds left on the clock, and have your offense start jogging off the field like you don't intend to run another play. Head coach takes off his headset, and all the coaches and trainers also start jogging towards the locker room (or collecting miscellaneous stuff if there's some rule that requires them to stay off the field). But you keep 11 scrubs on the sideline ready to go, looking disinterested. Maybe they are 8 defensive guys and our three kickers - - everybody knows kickers are weird anyway. For these 11 guys, maybe they are drinking gatorade, maybe one seems to have an equipment problem, somebody else is on a stationary bike - - anything that makes them look like they have some reason to not quite be heading to the locker room just yet. At about 15 seconds left on the first half clock, the regular offensive team guys and coaches start to sprint to get off the field, and the 11 scrub guys sprint to the line of scrimmage, and run a play (heck any running play would do) with about 3 or 4 seconds left. Shouldn't be too hard to make sure that the 11 guys running the play have the correct numbers for the positions where they line up. With any luck, they're gonna run the play against air, so who cares what skill sets they have. Maybe increase deception by having the 11 scrub guys start farther away from the locker room and/or jog slowly, so that they just happen to be at the line of scrimmage with 10 seconds left and don't have to sprint anywhere. I can think of two potential rule problems: 1. Do players who ran the last kneel down play have to leave the field on the same side as their teams bench? If so, make sure that the sprint at the 15 second mark takes them off the field toward their own bench rather than through the end zone. 2. Possible bigger problem - - if the offense substitutes, doesn't the referee have to give the defense time to substitute as well? But is there a way around this? What if nobody from the other team is trying to substitute, because they don't expect another play? Is there some time limit after which the referee says, OK, defensive team had time to substitute if they wished, but chose not to do so, so I'm gonna let the offense snap it? If the substitution rule is an insurmountable hurdle, then just have EVERYBODY start jogging off the field, and at the 15 second mark the same 11 guys that ran the last kneel down sprint back to the line of scrimmage and run a play, while everybody else (including coaches) sprints out of the end zone and off the field (or better yet, just times their jog to be all the way off the field before the next snap). 3. Can you increase the deception by having the QB who took the last kneel down jog off the field, and snap the ball at 3 seconds left on the first half clock with one of the remaining 10 guys at the QB position? Is it a penalty for the offense to snap the ball with 10 guys on the field? Not sure, but I don't think so. If you snap it with five lineman, and a non-QB skill position guy at the QB spot, do you need anything else for a legal offensive formation? As long as all of those guys were on the field for the last kneel-down, seems like there's no substitution rule to worry about. 4. OK, this is chicken s**t stuff, but we haven't had a really good QB in a long time, so we gotta figure out a way to score more points without one. It's really sad how we are wasting this defense. 5. Belichick is supposedly great at imparting situational awareness to his players, but I bet even his guys wouldn't be ready for this one. 6. If nothing else, the commotion would be hysterical entertainment, right up there with the Cal/Stanford game where the trombone player got trucked. So run it when we've been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs. Flame away, but any actual rules input would be appreciated - - especially for (1) the absolute minimum number of offensive players that must be on the field at the snap for a play to be legal, (2) any restrictions on where offensive players must leave the field after the next-to-last play of the first half, and (3) what the referee is required to do if the offense substitutes and there is nobody even around to decide if the defense wants to make an allowed substitution of its own. The only problem I could see is a lot of players jog across the field. So it depends on where the other teams locker room is located and how the other team needs to get there. The players tend to cross the field if they have to, so you'd have scenario where there would be too many men on the field, which is a dead ball foul, so you wouldn't be able to snap it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bills Fan since '64 Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think Marrone ran this play against KC on 4th and 10 from the 15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l< j Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 (edited) I think it would be a penalty, for illegal substitution. Remember when Manziel caught a TD pass in September? He had just run 1 play from under center and then walked toward the bench. He stood near the sideline arguing with the OC until the ball was snapped and then ran a route. Another Brown was flagged on the play, but the league later said Manziel should have gotten a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty: The league office, though, referred to page 64 of the rule book, which states unsportsmanlike conduct is "Using entering substitutes, legally returning players, substitutes on sidelines, or withdrawn players to confuse opponents, including lingering by players leaving the field after being replaced by a substitute and an offensive player lining up or going in motion less than five yards from the sideline in front of his team's designated bench area. However, an offensive player is permitted to line up less than five yards from the sidelines on the same side as his team's player bench, provided he is not in front of the designated bench area." http://espn.go.com/n...l-not-penalized I think what you are describing would fall in that paragraph somewhere. kj Edited November 18, 2014 by l< j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishDave Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 The only problem I could see is a lot of players jog across the field. So it depends on where the other teams locker room is located and how the other team needs to get there. The players tend to cross the field if they have to, so you'd have scenario where there would be too many men on the field, which is a dead ball foul, so you wouldn't be able to snap it. Yep....That is what I see happening too. You would basically get a 5 yard penalty and the clock would stop giving the other team a chance to get back on the field. And if they weren't ready, they could just false start again and give you another 5 yard penalty. Big whip..... Even if the play is legal, it feels like cheating to me. And I don't want my team to cheat to win. I want them to outplay the opponent. Fake punts and fake field goals and onside kicks are a normal part of the game so I am okay with them. But, I don't care for fake spikes or fake kneel downs or anything similar to the play the original poster described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted November 18, 2014 Author Share Posted November 18, 2014 I think it would be a penalty, for illegal substitution. Remember when Manziel caught a TD pass in September? He had just run 1 play from under center and then walked toward the bench. He stood near the sideline arguing with the OC until the ball was snapped and then ran a route. Another Brown was flagged on the play, but the league later said Manziel should have gotten a 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct penalty: http://espn.go.com/n...l-not-penalized I think what you are describing would fall in that paragraph somewhere. kj Thanks - - looks like that rule would be a problem. Best modification I can think of to try to avoid the rule would be to make sure (1) our off-the-field guys (i.e., coaches, trainers, and all the guys who were not part of the 11 on the field for the last kneel down), stayed off the field and just jogged down the sidelines, and (2) the minimum number of guys required for a legal offensive play just stayed near the line of scrimmage after the kneel-down while the QB and anybody else not needed to make the snap on the next play legal just jogged all the way off the field toward the locker room. This wouldn't be as deceptive, but maybe it has a chance of complying with the rule. As modified, there is no substitution. Not sure of the exact definition of the terms, but seems like there would be no "legally returning players" [sounds like a player who ran off the field mistakenly thinking he was supposed to sub out but then ran back on]. I don't know what a "withdrawn player" is under the rules - - if it just means a guy who is coming all the way off the field after being on the field for the last kneel down would the QB coming out violate the rule just by coming out? Or is the rule about "withdrawn players" intended to prevent the offense from making the defense mistakenly think that the player who is actually coming off WILL be a part of the next play? It it's the latter, we certainly wouldn't be making the defense mistakenly think that the QB leaving the field would be part of the play - - it's the exact opposite. We would clearly be making it look like the QB was not going to be involved in any further plays and he in fact would not be involved in any further plays. To make the play work, seems like you would have to let the refs know before the game what you might do, so that they spotted the ball after the kneel down and didn't take it away. Maybe that gives us a chance to ask the refs exactly what we would have to do to comply with the rule. As for the 12 men on the field dead ball foul that stops the play cold just like a false start would - - not sure how to deal with that. I guess just take your chances and see where the other team goes as our QB (and any of the other 11 guys not absolutely required for the next snap to be legal) jog off the field after the last kneel down. Maybe look at film to see how the other team typically leaves their home field at the end of the first half after a kneel down - - but it may be an insurmountable hurdle that we just have no control over. I get that some people don't like trickeration, even if it's entirely legal. Maybe I'd feel that way if we had a good QB. Then again, I think it was a sad day when they outlawed the fumblerooski. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 18, 2014 Share Posted November 18, 2014 As you describe it, it seems logistically implausible, but I always wonder why no one fakes a kneel down and has a WR break on a go route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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