YoloinOhio Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 @MatthewFairburn: The Buffalo Bills now have the worst cumulative score on Pro Football Focus of any team in the NFL. They are -110.9. --->>> offense only
boyst Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 I never took PFF seriously because they either state the obvious or ignore the on field product. >>Brady has played better the last six games (+15.2) then the first four games (-10.3) >>Eli Manning (+14.1) threw 5 INT's and is not as good as his brother (+24.9). >>The turf (+4.5) is green.
thewildrabbit Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) Sites like PFF, and Football Outsiders have a bad rep with most fans here simply because they post what most Bills fans don't want to see. Which is negative stats about their favorite team What I've noticed over the years is most Bills fans don't tend to believe another fans opinion on a subject unless they see it written by a neutral site. Its kinda why I quote them often when I post about the O line, as it should be something that other fans can relate to. I don't look at them as the holy grail of stats, but they are very close in their posted stats to what I see on the playing field in terms of certain players. Take a look at what they posted about Pears from the Miami game. What they don't really tell you is really just how bad he is, and how much he is restricting the Bills ability to run the ball. I feel both Pears, and Urbik are really killing the Bills ability to run the ball. I feel that grade is being way to kind, and it should be more like -15. "Erik Pears, RG: -3.9 Breakdown: Fresh off his first positive grade of the year, Pears came crashing back down to earth against the explosive Dolphins defensive line. It wasn’t that he was beat with an alarming regularity, but more that when he was beat it was often off the snap, causing plays to break down. He’s had a tough year and with the future in mind, is it time to blood some younger players with higher upside? Signature Play: With 8:26 to go in Q2 Pears is beat so quickly off the snap at first take you think the quarterback is drifting in the pocket to set up a screen. A second viewing though eliminates any idea of that, with Randy Starks flying by the Bills right guard as if he’s not even there." were they wrong? https://www.profootb...lphins-week-11 Why the Bills haven't turned to someone else like Richie Incognito is beyond me, or even someone off the PS. Edited November 17, 2014 by FeartheLosing
GunnerBill Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 And there it is folks... the mandatory Incognito reference.....
thewildrabbit Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 And there it is folks... the mandatory Incognito reference..... and there it is folks, a typical troll post adding nothing to the conversation.
NoSaint Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) Sites like PFF, and Football Outsiders have a bad rep with most fans here simply because they post what most Bills fans don't want to see. Which is negative stats about their favorite team What I've noticed over the years is most Bills fans don't tend to believe another fans opinion on a subject unless they see it written by a neutral site. Its kinda why I quote them often when I post about the O line, as it should be something that other fans can relate to. I don't look at them as the holy grail of stats, but they are very close in their posted stats to what I see on the playing field in terms of certain players. Take a look at what they posted about Pears from the Miami game. What they don't really tell you is really just how bad he is, and how much he is restricting the Bills ability to run the ball. I feel both Pears, and Urbik are really killing the Bills ability to run the ball. I feel that grade is being way to kind, and it should be more like -15. "Erik Pears, RG: -3.9 Breakdown: Fresh off his first positive grade of the year, Pears came crashing back down to earth against the explosive Dolphins defensive line. It wasn’t that he was beat with an alarming regularity, but more that when he was beat it was often off the snap, causing plays to break down. He’s had a tough year and with the future in mind, is it time to blood some younger players with higher upside? Signature Play: With 8:26 to go in Q2 Pears is beat so quickly off the snap at first take you think the quarterback is drifting in the pocket to set up a screen. A second viewing though eliminates any idea of that, with Randy Starks flying by the Bills right guard as if he’s not even there." were they wrong? https://www.profootb...lphins-week-11 Why the Bills haven't turned to someone else like Richie Incognito is beyond me, or even someone off the PS. ill agree they are good for the broad strokes "good bad or average" qualifications - just dont play the "hes a +0.6 so hes clearly miles ahead of this -0.2" comparisons. I tend to look for outliers if glancing through their numbers. -110 sounds like its pretty extreme. but outside of a few big sammy plays, and generally great starting field position im not sure what our offense has accomplished. Edited November 17, 2014 by NoSaint
GunnerBill Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 and there it is folks, a typical troll post adding nothing to the conversation. Nonsense. We have had the Incognitio conversation over and over and over. It is tiresome that he is brought up in every single thread that mentions the 0-line. We ain't signing him - fact. And he remains a free agent... so we are not the only ones.
DC Tom Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 I never took PFF seriously because they either state the obvious or ignore the on field product. >>Brady has played better the last six games (+15.2) then the first four games (-10.3) >>Eli Manning (+14.1) threw 5 INT's and is not as good as his brother (+24.9). >>The turf (+4.5) is green. Walt Coleman (-95234180.5) is a !@#$ing idiot.
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) Sites like PFF, and Football Outsiders have a bad rep with most fans here simply because they post what most Bills fans don't want to see. Which is negative stats about their favorite team What I've noticed over the years is most Bills fans don't tend to believe another fans opinion on a subject unless they see it written by a neutral site. Its kinda why I quote them often when I post about the O line, as it should be something that other fans can relate to. I don't look at them as the holy grail of stats, but they are very close in their posted stats to what I see on the playing field in terms of certain players. Take a look at what they posted about Pears from the Miami game. What they don't really tell you is really just how bad he is, and how much he is restricting the Bills ability to run the ball. I feel both Pears, and Urbik are really killing the Bills ability to run the ball. I feel that grade is being way to kind, and it should be more like -15. "Erik Pears, RG: -3.9 Breakdown: Fresh off his first positive grade of the year, Pears came crashing back down to earth against the explosive Dolphins defensive line. It wasn’t that he was beat with an alarming regularity, but more that when he was beat it was often off the snap, causing plays to break down. He’s had a tough year and with the future in mind, is it time to blood some younger players with higher upside? Signature Play: With 8:26 to go in Q2 Pears is beat so quickly off the snap at first take you think the quarterback is drifting in the pocket to set up a screen. A second viewing though eliminates any idea of that, with Randy Starks flying by the Bills right guard as if he’s not even there." were they wrong? https://www.profootb...lphins-week-11 Why the Bills haven't turned to someone else like Richie Incognito is beyond me, or even someone off the PS. I am a subscriber to PFF, first time this year. And, I'll tell you what Im pretty disappointed, there is an awful lot that makes no sense. Your view of those sites getting a bad rap because the Bills stats aren't great is a bunch of malarkey. FO and others have had the Bills ranked very appropriately and well at times this season. Like top 10, and it matched up pretty well with what you see. I leave you with, the Bills are 5-5 not 1-9 or 0-10. Im sick and tired of some of the negative extremism on this site. People B word about drinking Bills cool aid and good teams can win no matter what the refs call. Some are just trolling and trying to cause a stir, probably. But, every now and then its nice to have a little objectivity. Try it sometime. Edited November 17, 2014 by 75Bills
thebandit27 Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 PFF is hilarious. They rated Dareus last among DLmen on the Bills vs. KC, despite his 3-sack performance...I mean, honestly, how reliable can a site like that be? Now they've got Chris Collinsworth on board, so let's see what becomes of it in the future.
Max997 Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 you know you have problems when an awful team like Tampa looks better on offense
DC Tom Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 you know you have problems when an awful team like Tampa looks better on offense Or the Redskins.
thebandit27 Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 Belichick on PFF: http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2014/06/can-pro-football-focus-stats-be-blindly-trusted
NoSaint Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 PFF is hilarious. They rated Dareus last among DLmen on the Bills vs. KC, despite his 3-sack performance...I mean, honestly, how reliable can a site like that be? i suppose it would depend on his other 60 snaps, what the other guys did, and the gap in the score. my impression was all 4 were pretty impactful.
Astrobot Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) I subscribe to PFF Premium Stats, and have for at least 5 years. I value PFF as another bit of evidence, along with Pro-Football-Reference.com, NFL.com, Sports-Reference.com, etc etc. --It's another way to look at performance. Here are some examples I've tweeted about the Bills in recent weeks: Since Week 5, Orton is 7th in TDs with 10 (QBs min. 200 dropbacks). Better TD:INT than all but 4 http://bit.ly/1yDvtaG Preston Brown and Nigel Bradham (0.55) among 4 LBs allowing fewest yds/snap among 4-3 OLBs and all ILBs Bills are 2nd to last in rushing first downs, 10th-lowest in passing first downs, and tied for 2nd least in securing 1st downs by penalty. Bills tied for 2nd in takeaways with MIA and AZ, all 2 behind HOU. Bills rank 20th in rushing yds/game, 22nd rushing yds/attempt. Miami is 7th and 5th. Passing, Buffalo 17th yds/gm, Miami 23rd Bills D is now 2nd in turnovers, 3rd in pass TDs allowed, 3rd in lowest avg plays/drive, 2nd pts/drive, 3rd net yds/drive Take PFF for what you will; some of these stats are more complex than the stat itself, and others are a comdemnation of our "Recharged" season. Edited November 17, 2014 by Astrobot
NoSaint Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) Belichick on PFF: http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/2014/06/can-pro-football-focus-stats-be-blindly-trusted i dont think thats unfair commentary. anyone touting PFF as having every grade perfect is silly. im betting the sites creators dont even argue that. id also guess some of the unfair blame gets balanced out with undeserved credit and across the league most are subject to the same troubles. a degree of errors washing out a bit as sample sizes grow and you are comparing to a large group of guys. high scores should generally be good, and low scores bad, and a whole mess in between. theres also certainly potential for a reviewer to have a fundamental misunderstanding and hurt a certain position in a certain scheme too but with widespread internet review and scrutiny id guess over time that would be picked up on. but no stats tell the whole story definitively - so with that in mind im not sure they are worthless, but just another piece to the puzzle. Edited November 17, 2014 by NoSaint
thewildrabbit Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 ill agree they are good for the broad strokes "good bad or average" qualifications - just dont play the "hes a +0.6 so hes clearly miles ahead of this -0.2" comparisons. I tend to look for outliers if glancing through their numbers. -110 sounds like its pretty extreme. but outside of a few big sammy plays, and generally great starting field position im not sure what our offense has accomplished. Just go back to the Jets game and look at what the offense did all game.They had starts at the Jets 48, punt. Jets one, TD. Jets 31, FG. Jets 27, FG. Jets 44, punt. Jets 10 FG. Jets 14 TD. Without those 6 turnover I gotta wonder what the score would have been. Perhaps a loss 23-20? Then look at the yards in the drives. 64 -1, 5, 1, 92, 4, -4, -4, 9, 9, 3, -1, 14, 71. Talk about pathetic! The Bills had 4 series where they lost yardage! So, out of 13 drive starts the Bills had only three successful long drives, and two that were actually big plays by Sammy in his 3 receptions for 157 yards, and a TD. The Jets have a very stout run defense, and a crippled secondary so the bills rush 32 times and pass only 17 times. If not for the 6 turnovers.... Against KC. 7 plays, 51 yards. TD 6 plays, 30 yards. Punt 3 plays, 1 yards. Punt 3 plays, 0 yards. Punt 9 plays, 23 yards. FG 6 plays, 25 yards. Punt 11 plays, 71 yards. Fumble 11 plays, 73 yards. FG 4 plays, 19 yards. Punt 4 plays, 21 yards. Punts 7 plays, 10 yards. Downs 2 plays, 16 yards. Fumble... against the Chiefs the Bills are killing them with the run game to the tune of 5.0 YPC avg. The Chiefs have the #1 pass defense in the league and they choose to throw 48 times vs 22 rushes Against Miami, 10 drive starts 14 plays, 67 yards. FG 17 plays, 85 yards FG 1 play, -1 yard end of half 3 plays, 3 yards. Punt 8 plays, 49 yards. FG 3 plays, - 20 yards. Safety 5 plays, 10 yards. Missed FG 5 plays, 24 yards. Punt 4 plays, 2 yards. Downs 4 plays, 7 yards. Downs.... Simply pathetic. The Dolphins have the #2 pass defense in the league so obviously the Bills throw 39 times. The Bills rushed 19 times for 54 yards with a 2.8 YPC avg. Just look at those numbers, is PFF wrong? Even when the Bills can mount an effective run game they choose to pass, and thus put more pressure on Orton for success. Against both the Jets & Dolphins the run game was pretty much useless. We all saw last night that even with Andrew Luck as the QB you can't win without an effective run game. Now that the Patriots found 3rd string RB Jonas Gray who ran 38 times for 199 yards, and 4 TD's, it didn't matter that Brady threw two picks.
Big C Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 I think any of us watching the games knows the offense is bad, save some explosive plays from Sammy and the occasional flashes of brilliance we saw in Orton's first few starts.
thewildrabbit Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 i dont think thats unfair commentary. anyone touting PFF as having every grade perfect is silly. im betting the sites creators dont even argue that. id also guess some of the unfair blame gets balanced out with undeserved credit and across the league most are subject to the same troubles. a degree of errors washing out a bit as sample sizes grow and you are comparing to a large group of guys. high scores should generally be good, and low scores bad, and a whole mess in between. theres also certainly potential for a reviewer to have a fundamental misunderstanding and hurt a certain position in a certain scheme too but with widespread internet review and scrutiny id guess over time that would be picked up on. but no stats tell the whole story definitively - so with that in mind im not sure they are worthless, but just another piece to the puzzle. Exactly, well said. Like I said I think the grade PFF is currently giving Pears, Urbik, and the rest of the line is far, far to generous compared to what they are actually accomplishing. Look at the numbers for the last three games, and the drive starts yards speak for themselves. I don't need to look at PFF to see the Bills are currently fielding one of the very worst offenses in the NFL. Then think about exactly why that is
CSBill Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 you know you have problems when an awful team like Tampa looks better on offense Is that a surprise, our offense may very well be the worst in the league. I don't think we needed the grading system to tell us that, the eyeball and scoreboard tests are telling me all I need to know.
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