Whaley Needs to Go along with Marrone

[FireChan]

that's very convenient. there's no way to measure the impact of that massive gamble. i'm guessing that if watkins puts up league leading numbers, you'd believe those metrics bolster your case. but none can be found that would refute it? hmmm…. i'm guessing a savvy owner would not agree.

 

No simple way. There's certainly ways, but not with blind numbers.

 

Let's run through a little scenario. The Bills QB is Peyton Manning. All of our receivers numbers are the same except for Watkins, who has 100 yards and 3 TD's more than the rest of the rookies. You could make arguments that any of those rookies could put up the same numbers, right? Or you could say, he has the best numbers and he's the best. But let's say the Bills QB is, well, EJ Manuel, and Peyton Manning is the Buc's QB. And Mike Evans has more TD's and yard than Watkins. You could still make those argument, right? Neither tell the whole story, but arguments can be made both ways.

 

The Peg's are fans. If their football consultant tells them that Sammy is a superstar in the making, which he is, and the best WR in terms of prospect, which he is, they won't disagree. Trying to create a metric that accurately asses a football player, especially a WR who is so completely based on the performance of the QB, is impossible. Ever notice why football has no EWA stat?

 

And you're damn right if Watkins had the best numbers with one of the worst QB's, I'd point that to him being great. But it's understandable why he does not. It's not black and white.

 

You can't look at Watkins without also looking at EJ.

They really go hand in hand. The point is that we were not just one impact player away.

I respect the opinions of those who see a future for EJ, however I don't and that also influences my opinion of Whaley.

IMO EJ is a bust and the point is that it was writ large all over him.

Whaley nevertheless shamelessly sold him as the guy who could lead the team to a championship. If he believed that he is flat out incompetent. If he didn't believe it he's disengenuous.

No question the team would have been better off going with a vet and keeping their powder dry.

All of what he did, ultimately to mortgage the teams future, was driven by desperation in service of a personal agenda.

 

You may be surprised to hear this, but I believe EJ is done as well. However, I disagree with "mortgaged the future."

 

Do you believe this is a playoff caliber roster held back by the QB? I do. However, a playoff caliber roster has no shot of acquiring a pick that will net a first overall QB. None. What we'd get with our first next year in terms of QB is basically another EJ Manuel. A weak project. Is Watkins worth that? I believe so.

 

Also, GM's whiff on picks all the time. EJ showed enough promise that I could see an argument about him becoming a franchise player having suitable merit in the offseason. Football ain't a science folks, things work out or they don't. That doesn't make Whaley incompetent.

Edited November 17, 2014 by FireChan

[starrymessenger]

 

 

Do you even know the facts of the trade? If you did you would know they haven't even sent the Eagles the pick for Brown yet.

 

Oh you mean a conditional 4th that could become a third?

[Nitro]

Whaley has been GM one year. 2014 draft is good. Cyrus, Cyril and Seantrel are the future for the offensive line and It takes 3 years to judge a draft. Watkins has the makings of an elite WR.

[starrymessenger]

 

 

No simple way. There's certainly ways, but not with blind numbers.

 

Let's run through a little scenario. The Bills QB is Peyton Manning. All of our receivers numbers are the same except for Watkins, who has 100 yards and 3 TD's more than the rest of the rookies. You could make arguments that any of those rookies could put up the same numbers, right? Or you could say, he has the best numbers and he's the best. But let's say the Bills QB is, well, EJ Manuel, and Peyton Manning is the Buc's QB. And Mike Evans has more TD's and yard than Watkins. You could still make those argument, right? Neither tell the whole story, but arguments can be made both ways.

 

The Peg's are fans. If their football consultant tells them that Sammy is a superstar in the making, which he is, and the best WR in terms of prospect, which he is, they won't disagree. Trying to create a metric that accurately asses a football player, especially a WR who is so completely based on the performance of the QB, is impossible. Ever notice why football has no EWA stat?

 

And you're damn right if Watkins had the best numbers with one of the worst QB's, I'd point that to him being great. But it's understandable why he does not. It's not black and white.

 

 

 

You may be surprised to hear this, but I believe EJ is done as well. However, I disagree with "mortgaged the future."

 

Do you believe this is a playoff caliber roster held back by the QB? I do. However, a playoff caliber roster has no shot of acquiring a pick that will net a first overall QB. None. What we'd get with our first next year in terms of QB is basically another EJ Manuel. A weak project. Is Watkins worth that? I believe so.

 

Also, GM's whiff on picks all the time. EJ showed enough promise that I could see an argument about him becoming a franchise player having suitable merit in the offseason. Football ain't a science folks, things work out or they don't. That doesn't make Whaley incompetent.

 

You don't have to pick a QB high and indeed you probably should'nt unless you are really sold on him.

That first round pick could be somebody like Zach Martin.

Wouldn't he look good in a Bills uni (instead of Cyrus for example).

 

Whaley has been GM one year. 2014 draft is good. Cyrus, Cyril and Seantrel are the future for the offensive line and It takes 3 years to judge a draft. Watkins has the makings of an elite WR.

 

Yeah, life is good for Bills fans.

[FireChan]

You don't have to pick a QB high and indeed you probably should'nt unless you are really sold on him.

That first round pick could be somebody like Zach Martin.

Wouldn't he look good in a Bills uni (instead of Cyrus for example).

 

 

 

Yeah, life is good for Bills fans.

 

Losing a possible Zach Martin is mortgaging the future?

[starrymessenger]

 

 

Losing a possible Zach Martin is mortgaging the future?

 

Yeah, because I'd rather have a chance (instead of none at all).

First round pick, odds are you get a player.

[YoloinOhio]

What a stupid thread!!

this

[birdog1960]

No simple way. There's certainly ways, but not with blind numbers.

 

Let's run through a little scenario. The Bills QB is Peyton Manning. All of our receivers numbers are the same except for Watkins, who has 100 yards and 3 TD's more than the rest of the rookies. You could make arguments that any of those rookies could put up the same numbers, right? Or you could say, he has the best numbers and he's the best. But let's say the Bills QB is, well, EJ Manuel, and Peyton Manning is the Buc's QB. And Mike Evans has more TD's and yard than Watkins. You could still make those argument, right? Neither tell the whole story, but arguments can be made both ways.

 

The Peg's are fans. If their football consultant tells them that Sammy is a superstar in the making, which he is, and the best WR in terms of prospect, which he is, they won't disagree. Trying to create a metric that accurately asses a football player, especially a WR who is so completely based on the performance of the QB, is impossible. Ever notice why football has no EWA stat?

 

And you're damn right if Watkins had the best numbers with one of the worst QB's, I'd point that to him being great. But it's understandable why he does not. It's not black and white.

 

 

 

 

but we're discussing evaluating whaley, are we not? the net total of his work can be measured in W/L's. that includes picking a promising receiver this year, dropping a ist round and 4th round pick next, agreeing to the choice of a coaching staff , signing or not signing free agents (including surprisingly good qb's as you mentioned as a possibility) and running the analytics dept, among other things. from most accounts here, he's starting with above avg talent. why shouldn't he be judged by win loss differential against teams with arguably significantly less existing talent? were measuring his body of work and the watkins pick and trade certainly directly relate to that.

[FireChan]

but we're discussing evaluating whaley, are we not? the net total of his work can be measured in W/L's. that includes picking a promising receiver this year, dropping a ist round and 4th round pick next, agreeing to the choice of a coaching staff , signing or not signing free agents (including surprisingly good qb's as you mentioned as a possibility) and running the analytics dept, among other things. from most accounts here, he's starting with above avg talent. why shouldn't he be judged by win loss differential against teams with arguably significantly less existing talent? were measuring his body of work and the watkins pick and trade certainly directly relate to that.

 

I thought we were just discussing the Sammy trade.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

So if that's true then how can you say the draft was full of stars and none of the others are there yet either. From what 've seen Sammy playing with the worst QB of the star rookie WR's and a rather weak oline, and being nicked up, does indeed look more like a superstar in the making than the others. Will that happen who knows just as you don't know if these others will be just as good.

 

since when is future dominance in a position a slam dunk?

[FireChan]

Yeah, because I'd rather have a chance (instead of none at all).

First round pick, odds are you get a player.

 

And the chances are surprisingly slim. From an odds standpoint, we had a much better chance with Sammy being a superstar than #9 in 2014, and #14-16 in 2015.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Whaley has done NOTHING at all in his tenure here. He has not drafted smartly and hired inferior coaches and has been non almost non existent. Bring in Polian and see what a real pro is about.

What are you talking about? During his short tenure here, Whaley has drafted two rookie starters on offense, traded for Bryce Brown and (I believe) Jerry Hughes, and signed decent free agents such as Dan Carpenter, Corey Graham, Colton Schmidt, and Nikell Roby. Give him a break!

[Buffaloed in Pa]

Yeah the phones been ringing off the hook for Polian. Ha,ha,ha. Waaaah. I want everything new again. Just wait Christmas is coming soon and you will get something shiny and new. Sound like a bunch of spoiled kids. I want it,I want it. Waaah. Patience .

[birdog1960]

Yeah the phones been ringing off the hook for Polian. Ha,ha,ha. Waaaah. I want everything new again. Just wait Christmas is coming soon and you will get something shiny and new. Sound like a bunch of spoiled kids. I want it,I want it. Waaah. Patience .

that's just the word to describe bills fans: "spoiled". there has been almost nothing redeeming about this organization for 15 years. it's logical to hope for fundamental change.

 

So if that's true then how can you say the draft was full of stars and none of the others are there yet either. From what 've seen Sammy playing with the worst QB of the star rookie WR's and a rather weak oline, and being nicked up, does indeed look more like a superstar in the making than the others. Will that happen who knows just as you don't know if these others will be just as good.

um….,what? if there are 10 potential stars in a position in a draft, it is of high statistical likelihood that at least will be a star. the odds drop significantly for each individual player. that's why this was a reckless move. Edited November 17, 2014 by birdog1960

[xsoldier54]

Dude stop trolling. You're getting ridiculous starting the same thread with the same topic over and over. Polian is a dinosaur in NFL age, he's not your answer. The game is going to younger guys as GMs and coaches. Polian might be good as an advisor, but no way I make him the GM. Whaley was and still is spoken in high regard in the league, and there is no reason to get rid of him.

This. Whaley has made some good moves in all three areas, the draft, FA and trades. Not every single move is going to pan out, but he has made enough good ones to make me a believer. The problem with this team is not the GM. They have enough talent to win. They are playing poorly and not up to their talent level and that is a product of coaching. I have defended Marrone and even been patient with Hackett, but over the past few weeks it has become more and more obvious that the coaching staff is the achilles heel of this team. Marrone and Hackett need to go.

[taterthegator]

The sting from this year is the Bills got our hopes up (again) and found a new bitter way to dash them. The talent is there and there are some very nice pieces. I recall when the Bills drafted Bruce Smith, we saw the potential and needed to find a few more pieces of the puzzle. I am just as disappointed that the team will not be going to the playoffs again as everyone, but Frank has done a decent job in putting this together.

[Gordio]

This past draft is not a total bust in my eyes. I think we all see Watkins amazing talent. Unfortunately QB play and injury has held him back slightly. Seantrel is in the 7th was a risk but it's worked out so far. Preston Brown has been very solid for us and sets us up nicely next year with Kiko returning. Not to mention the draft pick trade for Bryce Brown which in hindsight we needed. The trade for Hughes and signing of Scwartz and Orton were are all good moves. I definately believe he's done way more good than harm. And if you want to believe he was responsible for the previous year draft, don't forget we took Manuel in a draft that was weak in terms of QBs but if he didn't take a QB he would've caught a lot of flac and you can't hang him up for Manuel without praising for Kiko.

Whaley is not the problem. He is very well respected throughout the league and hanging up to dry will hurt us in trying to attract other team executives in the future.

 

If I am Pegula I would like to find out how much of a say Whaely had in drafting Manuel. I think this was Nix's pick all the way. He even said that past fall that he wanted to get a franchise QB before he left the team. With that being said I think Whaley should stay. There are 3 major problems on this team. QB, the Head Coach & Off Coordinator. We could fix 2 out of the three this offseason.

 

Yeah the phones been ringing off the hook for Polian. Ha,ha,ha. Waaaah. I want everything new again. Just wait Christmas is coming soon and you will get something shiny and new. Sound like a bunch of spoiled kids. I want it,I want it. Waaah. Patience .

 

Sorry but Bills fans are anything but spoiled. We have had plenty of patience.