Estelle Getty Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 There seems to be a divide on this board whether the players on this team or coaches are responsibe for what is headed towards yet another rebuild this offseason. Some here think this is a playoff caliber roster while others think we are lacking legitimate QB and our O-line is to big of a trainwreck to be a comtender. While others think that these issues are being used as a crutch and it is an inept coaching staff (Marrone And Hackett namely) holding this team back. Personally I am of the opinion that it is Marrones inability as a game day coach and hiring an offensive coordinator way over his head. He reminds me of a Mularkey clone really. A bit of a meat head who becomes overly conservative on sundays. Although the QB and oline situations are not ideal it is nothing that couldnt be overcame with a better game plan. It usually helps to have the best defensive line in the game. I would reference the Arizona Cardinals who have had to start Drew Stanton as a QB for a good part of the season and still made it work. If you look at that roster top to bottom overall there is not anymore talent than what we have. That pretty much sums up how I feel. What are your thoughts?
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 1) I agree; it is the coaches. 2) That said, having a superstar QB masks all your other problems. For example, I am not convinced that guys like John Fox or Chuck Pagano are anything more than average coaches. Their star QB's kind of let them off the hook.
NoSaint Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 1) I agree; it is the coaches. 2) That said, having a superstar QB masks all your other problems. For example, I am not convinced that guys like John Fox or Chuck Pagano are anything more than average coaches. Their star QB's kind of let them off the hook. Yup. I think you could argue that if we dropped either harbaugh or manning in buffalo we'd be highly competitive immediately. But ultimately I think that the coaches are the bigger issue today.
The Big Cat Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 How can you acknowledge the importance of a QB then turn around and say "but in this case it's the coaches?" Seriously. Do you rank Orton in the top 20 QBs starting in week 11?
billsfan1959 Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 (edited) Clearly, a franchise QB can mask a lot of inadequacies of other players and coaches. The reality is that very few teams ever acquire a true franchise QB. In the case of our beloved Buffalo Bills, the level of play at the QB position has run from average to completely disastrous (and in many instances, painfully comical) since Jim Kelly. With that said, the mark of a good coaching staff is not how well they do with a franchise QB at the helm, but rather (1) what they do with the talent they have, (2) how prepared their teams are for the teams they face, in terms of game plans, and their ability to make in game adjustments, (3) how fundamentally sound their teams are (i.e.; execution of assignments, not committing senseless penalties, not turning the ball over) (4) and how consistent their team plays from week to week. In the case of the current team, we clearly are, at best, average at the QB position - however, Orton is certainly capable of managing a well designed offensive gameplan. We also clearly have above average talent in a number of other positions - and below average talent in some critical areas (read offensive line). Yet, I believe a good coaching staff could devise game plans to maximize the strengths of this team and minimize its weaknesses. I believe a good coaching staff could have this team playing fundamentally sound and competitively in every game they play, and fighting for a division championship or a wild card spot deep in December. The little things change a losing culture and that starts with the coaching staff. This team might not have a franchise or even upper echelon QB; however, that doesn't mean it can't play sound, fundamental, playoff caliber football each and every week. Edited November 15, 2014 by billsfan1959
NoSaint Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 (edited) How can you acknowledge the importance of a QB then turn around and say "but in this case it's the coaches?" Seriously. Do you rank Orton in the top 20 QBs starting in week 11? We need a better qb to be in the elite group of teams but we are also underachieving. This roster could have been in the playoffs. I see you're off the "well it's better with orton so the coaches weren't the problem" kick. Now it's orton is no good so what could the coaches do? Edited November 15, 2014 by NoSaint
mannc Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 Yup. I think you could argue that if we dropped either harbaugh or manning in buffalo we'd be highly competitive immediately. But ultimately I think that the coaches are the bigger issue today. And good thing, because it's a lot easier to get a new coach than new players.
NoSaint Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 And good thing, because it's a lot easier to get a new coach than new players. I think that's part of why it's the bigger issue. Additionally a coach can help groom a qb. We aren't likely getting a top 5-7 qb any time soon. Even if we draft one it'll take a few years to get there. So I put coaching as the most current and pressing because it's the most fixable
BELLABEANER Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 This roster is good enough. The coaching on the offensive side of the ball is well below average. The o-line is a train wreck and they cant get the ball to their star players(CJ SPiller, Sammy Watkins) on a consistent basis.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 1) I agree; it is the coaches. 2) That said, having a superstar QB masks all your other problems. For example, I am not convinced that guys like John Fox or Chuck Pagano are anything more than average coaches. Their star QB's kind of let them off the hook. Agree Yup. I think you could argue that if we dropped either harbaugh or manning in buffalo we'd be highly competitive immediately. But ultimately I think that the coaches are the bigger issue today. ...and agree
mannc Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 I think that's part of why it's the bigger issue. Additionally a coach can help groom a qb. We aren't likely getting a top 5-7 qb any time soon. Even if we draft one it'll take a few years to get there. So I put coaching as the most current and pressing because it's the most fixable Yep. There are many examples of teams turning around their fortunes immediately, simply by hiring the right head coach, with no major roster changes.
goldenboy81 Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 You can make an argument for both really.. Orton missed some key passes the last 2 loses that cost us the playoffs.. coach wise its all on Hackett...he abandoned the run both games,and his plays at the end of both games were terrible..new oc and new qb would help fix this problem in my opinion..
metzelaars_lives Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 (edited) If Peyton manning was the qb for the bills and every last thing was the same- from the o-line down to Hackett- they'd be 7-2 just like the Broncos. For one, if marrone wanted to punt on that 4th down in Miami, manning would simply laugh at him and the offense would stay on the field. And then eventually marrone and Hackett would learn things from him and nate hackett would be a head coaching candidate after two years. So yeah it's not the players or the coaches. It's the g*****n quarterback. Additionally though, anyone who goes anywhere near the "blow this thing up" argument is completely clueless. They really aren't that far away this time. They do need a few new parts: the aforementioned hc, oc, qb and a guard or two. There are teams in this league that need a lot more than that. It is nice to know we will have an elite defense again next year. Edited November 15, 2014 by metzelaars_lives
Beerball Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 There seems to be a divide on this board whether the players on this team or coaches are responsible What are your thoughts? i think that it a bit of this and a pinch of that Ms, Getty.
Dan Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 Clearly, a franchise QB can mask a lot of inadequacies of other players and coaches. The reality is that very few teams ever acquire a true franchise QB. In the case of our beloved Buffalo Bills, the level of play at the QB position has run from average to completely disastrous (and in many instances, painfully comical) since Jim Kelly. With that said, the mark of a good coaching staff is not how well they do with a franchise QB at the helm, but rather (1) what they do with the talent they have, (2) how prepared their teams are for the teams they face, in terms of game plans, and their ability to make in game adjustments, (3) how fundamentally sound their teams are (i.e.; execution of assignments, not committing senseless penalties, not turning the ball over) (4) and how consistent their team plays from week to week. In the case of the current team, we clearly are, at best, average at the QB position - however, Orton is certainly capable of managing a well designed offensive gameplan. We also clearly have above average talent in a number of other positions - and below average talent in some critical areas (read offensive line). Yet, I believe a good coaching staff could devise game plans to maximize the strengths of this team and minimize its weaknesses. I believe a good coaching staff could have this team playing fundamentally sound and competitively in every game they play, and fighting for a division championship or a wild card spot deep in December. The little things change a losing culture and that starts with the coaching staff. This team might not have a franchise or even upper echelon QB; however, that doesn't mean it can't play sound, fundamental, playoff caliber football each and every week. This. Our offense has been on a steady march to the bottom of every significant measure since Marrone and Hackett took the helm. You can see the players regressing with each game. I contend the coaching staff is doing everything in their power to put the players in a position to fail and practically daring them to succeed. The problem with their boring, predictable, basic and simplified game plan is that it forces the players to be perfect. So, when a decent player drops a ball on 3rd and 8, everyone says... the coach didn't drop the ball. No, perhaps not. But, the coach is the one who put the players in continual 3rd and longs all game long and amplifyied the likelihood of the drop. Not to mention when your game plan is overly simplistic and predictable, you're asking your players to succeed when the opposing team knows exactly what's coming. To put that another way, we all know the Patriots cheated and stole signals. And we all know that gave them an unfair advantage because they knew exactly what the opposing team was about to do. Marrone and Hackett are essentially giving every team they face that advantage by saying here's our offense, everyone knows what it is, we're not disguising anything. And then they expect our 5 linemen to block 7 defenders on each run and blame "execution" when they can't?
hondo in seattle Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 I think it's both coaches and players. My offseason priorities if I was Marrone/Whaley would be to find two good guards and an OC. I'd also draft another QB to groom. There are some other shortcomings on the team but I believe just those few changes would get the Bills into the playoffs.
Manther Posted November 15, 2014 Posted November 15, 2014 There seems to be a divide on this board whether the players on this team or coaches are responsibe for what is headed towards yet another rebuild this offseason. Some here think this is a playoff caliber roster while others think we are lacking legitimate QB and our O-line is to big of a trainwreck to be a comtender. While others think that these issues are being used as a crutch and it is an inept coaching staff (Marrone And Hackett namely) holding this team back. Personally I am of the opinion that it is Marrones inability as a game day coach and hiring an offensive coordinator way over his head. He reminds me of a Mularkey clone really. A bit of a meat head who becomes overly conservative on sundays. Although the QB and oline situations are not ideal it is nothing that couldnt be overcame with a better game plan. It usually helps to have the best defensive line in the game. I would reference the Arizona Cardinals who have had to start Drew Stanton as a QB for a good part of the season and still made it work. If you look at that roster top to bottom overall there is not anymore talent than what we have. That pretty much sums up how I feel. What are your thoughts? AGREED!
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