TC in St. Louis Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Did anyone notice that first play from scrimmage was an OPI as the dolphins wide out set a pick about 3 yards up the field. Was some great foreshadowing on how the rest of the game would go. I did see that pick. In fact, I said "Pick" as it happened. Nobody heard me. I was like a tree falling in the woods with nobody around.
dubs Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Here's my issue with the officials. First, I do NOT believe there is some agenda against Buffalo. Second, the Bills did NOT play well enough to win, regardless of the officials. So what's the issue? My problem is that officiating is taking so much enjoyment out of watching football. I may be in the minority but it's gotten so bad that I find myself disinterested in most games that don't involve buffalo. I think the issue is you have a convoluted rule book that is hyper technical and the officials interpret these hyper technical rules in their own way. They do this rather than just use their eyes to judge a play and decide if it was really a penalty. The Safety was a perfect example of this. I'm sure a case can be made that according to a hypertechnical reading of the rule, that was barely grounding. But to the rest of the world that watched the play, it was clear that Orton, under pressure, was trying to get the ball upfield to Sammy, not just dump it out of bounds. Not a single person in the stands, watching on TV or the announcers even contemplated it might be grounding. Then the officials gather and talk themselves into it because of some obscure interpretation that Sammy was not close enough and miscommunication between receiver and QB isn't a consideration. It's ASSANINE! This development in officiating makes no sense and its consistently bad week in and week out and game to game.
PO'14 Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Did the Balll hit the Ground? yes...so that is grounding. SAFETY!!!!
KD in CA Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 So what's the issue? My problem is that officiating is taking so much enjoyment out of watching football. I may be in the minority but it's gotten so bad that I find myself disinterested in most games that don't involve buffalo. This. About 50% of all pro and college games are now just a flag/review fest. No flow to the game. Huge calls that change the game, etc. Have to stop to 'review' every fourth play. Absolutely idiotic. I blame everyone who thinks endless officiating -- including instant replay -- is a good thing.
dave mcbride Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) When I saw it was Coleman's crew I knew we were screwed. Those two calls were dreadful (the grounding and Def. PI). Almost as dreadful as the Bills offense. The football Gods corrected the safety call when the Dolphins fumbled away the free kick but the Bills offense generated one first down and of course they then missed the FG attempt. I thought the grounding call was the right call, actually. If you watch around the league, that is being called on plays in which the receiver is about as distant from Watkins. Teams complain, but in every instance I think those calls are right. QBs shouldn't be allowed to launch the ball into no man's land to neutralize a good rush. More importantly, he DID intentionally ground it. It's really not even debatable. He wasn't even looking at Watkins - he was just trying to avoid a sack. Finally, I feel like the Bills DESERVED that penalty. Calling that play on third and 20+ yards near your own goal line in a one point game is that absolute height of stupidity. Seriously, think about that play call - deep drop against a team that was rushing the passer well in a situation where the chance of conversion is below 5 percent. The calls on Gilmore and Hughes were terrible, however. Edited November 14, 2014 by dave mcbride
All_Pro_Bills Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 I thought the grounding call was the right call, actually. If you watch around the league, that is being called on plays in which the receiver is about as distant from Watkins. Teams complain, but in every instance I think those calls are right. QBs shouldn't be allowed to launch the ball into no man's land to neutralize a good rush. More importantly, he DID intentionally ground it. It's really not even debatable. He wasn't even looking at Watkins - he was just trying to avoid a sack. Finally, I feel like the Bills DESERVED that penalty. Calling that play on third and 20+ yards near your own goal line in a one point game is that absolute height of stupidity. Seriously, think about that play call - deep drop against a team that was rushing the passer well in a situation where the chance of conversion is below 5 percent. The calls on Gilmore and Hughes were terrible, however. However, its okay to throw the ball at the feet of a receiver 5 yards away from the QB, clearly in order to avoid a loss, avoid a sack and a hit, and its clearly intentional? And getting 'out of the pocket' and throwing the ball 10 yards out of bounds to the cheerleaders is okay too even though its clear intent to avoid a loss? I'm coming around to the idea that the entire rule should be eliminated since it requires the officials to determine intent and arbitarily set what 'in the area' means rather than some clear cut action like offsides or facemask penalties for example. But I do agree it was a stupid call by the OC. There was absolutely no way the Bills were going to convert that 3rd and long absent some defensive penalty resutling in a 1st and 10. Get 4-5 yards and give the punter some room to work might have been more prudent. Then at other times when you'd think being a little more aggessive would be the right playcall and they turtle up on the call. But I'm getting off topic and venting a little..
dubs Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 I thought the grounding call was the right call, actually. If you watch around the league, that is being called on plays in which the receiver is about as distant from Watkins. Teams complain, but in every instance I think those calls are right. QBs shouldn't be allowed to launch the ball into no man's land to neutralize a good rush. More importantly, he DID intentionally ground it. It's really not even debatable. He wasn't even looking at Watkins - he was just trying to avoid a sack. Finally, I feel like the Bills DESERVED that penalty. Calling that play on third and 20+ yards near your own goal line in a one point game is that absolute height of stupidity. Seriously, think about that play call - deep drop against a team that was rushing the passer well in a situation where the chance of conversion is below 5 percent. The calls on Gilmore and Hughes were terrible, however. Thanks for reinforcing my point. "He did intend to ground it" "He wasn't even looking at Watkins" "He was avoiding pressure" "The bills deserved it" When those are components of calling a penalty in place of just plainly seeing the play its a recipe for disaster. The rule was not established for that play. No way. Watkins was close to the ball. The ball landed in bounds. It was thrown about 20 yards down the field. At this rate, we may have the NFL start givin officials compasses and protractors to determine if the pass was grounding.
dave mcbride Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Thanks for reinforcing my point. "He did intend to ground it" "He wasn't even looking at Watkins" "He was avoiding pressure" "The bills deserved it" When those are components of calling a penalty in place of just plainly seeing the play its a recipe for disaster. The rule was not established for that play. No way. Watkins was close to the ball. The ball landed in bounds. It was thrown about 20 yards down the field. At this rate, we may have the NFL start givin officials compasses and protractors to determine if the pass was grounding. Like I said, I've seen a number of plays in which the receiver was about as distant from the ball as Watkins. I mean Watkins wasn't even running toward where the ball was, and you can bet he wasn't running the wrong route. Plus the ball wasn't even really close to him. It was intentional grounding, pure and simple. If I didn't see it called against Drew Brees and one or two other QBs recently in similar situations, I'd say it was a bad call. But that's how it's being called now. And honestly, I think it's correct.
The Big Cat Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 However, its okay to throw the ball at the feet of a receiver 5 yards away from the QB, clearly in order to avoid a loss, avoid a sack and a hit, and its clearly intentional? And getting 'out of the pocket' and throwing the ball 10 yards out of bounds to the cheerleaders is okay too even though its clear intent to avoid a loss? I'm coming around to the idea that the entire rule should be eliminated since it requires the officials to determine intent and arbitarily set what 'in the area' means rather than some clear cut action like offsides or facemask penalties for example. But I do agree it was a stupid call by the OC. There was absolutely no way the Bills were going to convert that 3rd and long absent some defensive penalty resutling in a 1st and 10. Get 4-5 yards and give the punter some room to work might have been more prudent. Then at other times when you'd think being a little more aggessive would be the right playcall and they turtle up on the call. But I'm getting off topic and venting a little.. I've changed my proposal from a several yard halo to 10 yards. If the ball travels 10 yards, it can't be intentional grounding. I understand the spirit of the law. So to avoid QB's spiking it at the first sign of pressure, make them decide whether unloading one down field is the better option. A guy under serious duress can't just wing one, and if he does, it's likely with some consequence. In fact, I'd favor THIS version of the rule even it means the spikes Orton threw to his running backs' feet last night--again, with the BLATANT intent to ground the ball to avoid pressure, while standing in the pocket--would then become illegal.
NoSaint Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) Without watching replays my gut says A ref should never put points on the board unless it's incredibly belligerent disregard for the rules (both letter and spirit). The PI was close enough that we'd probably complain if it wasn't thrown and the roles reversed. Edited November 14, 2014 by NoSaint
dubs Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Like I said, I've seen a number of plays in which the receiver was about as distant from the ball as Watkins. I mean Watkins wasn't even running toward where the ball was, and you can bet he wasn't running the wrong route. Plus the ball wasn't even really close to him. It was intentional grounding, pure and simple. If I didn't see it called against Drew Brees and one or two other QBs recently in similar situations, I'd say it was a bad call. But that's how it's being called now. And honestly, I think it's correct. Yeah, I think we are speaking to different perspectives. I don't doubt somewhere in the rule book the league can point to a sentence that can be interpreted in a way that includes the play in the definition of Intentional Grounding. Of that I'm as certain as you are. My point is that its ridiculous to begin with. That a play which was in the wide open field and that 100% of people seeing the play (media, players, coaches, fans) did not even bat an eye lash about would get overturned after about 30 seconds of a conference because the refs got together and had a little chat about the technical aspects of IG.
NoSaint Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Like I said, I've seen a number of plays in which the receiver was about as distant from the ball as Watkins. I mean Watkins wasn't even running toward where the ball was, and you can bet he wasn't running the wrong route. Plus the ball wasn't even really close to him. It was intentional grounding, pure and simple. If I didn't see it called against Drew Brees and one or two other QBs recently in similar situations, I'd say it was a bad call. But that's how it's being called now. And honestly, I think it's correct. If it was catchable with the receiver breaking properly after the ball is in the air I have a hard time with it. As others said - I assume sammy ran the right route- but what if he missed a read? At the time the ball was released, there was an option that could've realistically gotten there.
DC Tom Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Bills have won 9 out 14 games with Walt Coleman And I remember quite a few of those. Specifically, I remember Coleman !@#$ing over the OTHER team with weird, inexplicable calls, and wondering how he still has a job. Missed on Gilmore's PI play: Mario Williams was hauled down from behind. Coleman simply never calls an even game.
Fixxxer Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 That is why Walt Coleman's call Thursday night against Buffalo Bills quarterback Kyle Orton stood out. It's true that Orton was under a heavy rush from Miami Dolphins defensive end Olivier Vernon, and his throw toward the left sideline wasn't close to a completion. But receiver Sammy Watkins was working in the general area, breaking back late toward the sideline after initially making a move inside. The ball landed just out of bounds at the 23-yard line. At that moment, Watkins was at the 27, roughly 10 yards from the sideline. So the ball was about four yards short and 10 yards wide of him. http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/149629/inside-slant-theres-a-reason-intentional-grounding-is-rarely-called
Maddog69 Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 it's tough to complain about the refs when your team can only score FGs Exactly, The Bills suck but people want to B word about the refs. All 3 of the 'controversial' call were deserved, albeit many times they are not called. -The pass interference, Gilmore hit the receiver a nanosecond early. It was VERY close to perfect, but it was a tiny bit early. -The grounding penalty, the ref said he saw Watkins make the inside move and Orton threw the ball outside. The Ref never saw Watkins make the second move. That said, Orton was throwing it away and not really trying for a completion. -the Hughes penalty - he bumped the official as he attempted to get back at the Miami player. Dumb penalty. Shut up and go do your job. The penalties did seem to be excessive towards us and not so much for Miami but we have an undisciplined team. I honestly have no complaint about the refs. We stunk and got beat fair and square.
dubs Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/149629/inside-slant-theres-a-reason-intentional-grounding-is-rarely-called Thanks for that. Perfectly explains how ridiculous that call was. Exactly, The Bills suck but people want to B word about the refs. All 3 of the 'controversial' call were deserved, albeit many times they are not called. -The pass interference, Gilmore hit the receiver a nanosecond early. It was VERY close to perfect, but it was a tiny bit early. -The grounding penalty, the ref said he saw Watkins make the inside move and Orton threw the ball outside. The Ref never saw Watkins make the second move. That said, Orton was throwing it away and not really trying for a completion. -the Hughes penalty - he bumped the official as he attempted to get back at the Miami player. Dumb penalty. Shut up and go do your job. The penalties did seem to be excessive towards us and not so much for Miami but we have an undisciplined team. I honestly have no complaint about the refs. We stunk and got beat fair and square. You're on the wrong thread. The thread for talking about why the Bills lost is drastically different that a separate thread on how bad the officiating is while recognizing it was not the reason buffalo lost.
TC in St. Louis Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 If there was cause for intentional grounding, why didn't we see the Miami coach screaming for it? Why wasn't the crowd going nuts? Why did the Bills line up to punt, and Miami get into punt return formation? Because it was an incomplete pass, and it's time to punt from the end zone. It's not time to get together and hand points out to an unexpecting Dolphins team. When they announced the penalty, the crowd got a little worked up because suddenly they had an extra 2 points!! What a gift. That should come with a reach-around.
dubs Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Does anyone have a video clip of the Hughes penalty? I haven't been able to find one.
dave mcbride Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 (edited) Walt Coleman did indeed ref the Bills/Pats fiasco in 1998. But he also called 22 penalties (!!) on the 49ers when the Bills beat them at home in 1998 as well: http://articles.balt...l-mary-patriots . All around, just a horrible ref: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Walt_Coleman http://boards.buffal...man-ring-a-bell What do you think Jim Schwartz thinks of Coleman?? Edited November 14, 2014 by dave mcbride
NoSaint Posted November 14, 2014 Posted November 14, 2014 Does anyone have a video clip of the Hughes penalty? I haven't been able to find one. another call that could have gone without - that one hughes shouldve known better than to bump the ref between him and the guy he was jawing with after the play though. aggressive call, but hughes left himself vulnerable to it for no reason. atleast the rest were in the course of play.
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