Orton's accuracy

[Agent 91]

 

 

We clearly didn't watch the same game.

 

I think it was cumulative. Orton definitely didnt earn his spot at the table. I think he deserves every bit of the crucifixion... except benching him. He could have done a lot more. Which you HAVE said so I wont harp on that. I dont think I can point to anything specifically that lost the game. But I can point out a lot of contributing factors. I think the big thing is people look at things like this in a vacuum. We are all frustrated and why blame coaching. At this point does anyone have a basis for why Marrone and co should stay? They are terrible but at this point its just exhaustive to even talk about them. We have a huge an controversy. Isnt that what everyone wants. Only problem our controversy is who stink worse. Lol be careful what you wish for

 

 

Orton had a bad game. Especially in the red zone on Sunday. It happens. Let's see how he does on Thursday. He was also with out a 100% Sammy with whom he did not practice with all week. He needs to play better in the Red Zone which was one of his strength going into this game.

 

 

That is not true ... EJ needed to see how Kyle handles the huddle, practices, and meetings. He never had that experience with Kolb out. Now that he has seen, and hopefully learned it, he is in a better position than when he was benched. To believe otherwise is not being objective.

 

First point. He did however have a WIDE OPEN Hogan on what was that? 3rd down? He has to see that.

 

Second point. I wholeheartedly agree. After reading how orton is teaching him I am on board with orton taking the reigns. If ej could command the huddle. And get some swagger with his intangibles. We would be on to something

[Magox]

 

 

Second point. I wholeheartedly agree. After reading how orton is teaching him I am on board with orton taking the reigns. If ej could command the huddle. And get some swagger with his intangibles. Along with the ability to anticipate and trust that his receivers will be open . We would be on to something

[ProcessAccepted]

Did you know that EJ and Kyle have almost exactly the same career completion percentage? (KO 59.1/EJ 58.6). EJ had some bad games before getting benched but he's not as horribly accurate as the haters keep saying. Orton has had 10 years to improve his accuracy and hasn't done it yet so many of you believe he is great. EJ has started 14 games and those same people are convinced he can never improve. I just don't get the Orton love and EJ hate. Here's my honest assessment:

As of today, Orton is a marginally better pocket passer than EJ is. Orton has Zero mobility and is not a threat to run. He has reached his peak. He is a journeyman backup.

 

EJ - is a young QB who has mobility, has had some success and has lead some game winning drives. He lacks experience and confidence. I believe he has upside.

 

I like having both QBs on the roster. My problem is the coaches. I don't have any faith in Marrone/Hackett to develop EJ.

 

I haven't given up on EJ, but I think the best place for him is the bench. He needs to learn, and starting games is not the best way for him to learn. He was struggling too much. EJ wasn't progressing on the field, his inaccuracy was hanging our receivers out there to get killed. Developing him off to the side is not a bad thing for him or for us.

 

EJ had a 58% completion with 6.4 yards per completion. 5 Tds & 3 Ints & 1 fumble

Orton has a 66% completion with 7.3 yards per completion. 10 TDs & 3 Ints & 2 fumbles

 

This year Orton just gives us the best chance to win. I don't hate EJ, but we cant change our culture and continue to lose developing a QB.

[marioc]

The stretch of the game where Orton had about 6 incompletions in a row looked to me to be almost 100% on the receivers. The receivers got a bad case of the dropsies and now it's time for a bash Orton thread? He's not Manning but god is he better then Manuel and it's not even close. Abandoning the run game didn't help either. Take away either of the fumbles, Bills win and we don't even see this thread. This board is funny.

[PromoTheRobot]

In five games as a Bill:

 

Kyle Orton:

65.6 comp %, 1,387 yds, 10 TDs, 3 INTs, 98.4 rating

 

Projected over a 12 game season:

3,329 yds, 24 TDs, 7 INTs

 

I'll take that.

Edited November 12, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[Maddog69]

In five games as a Bill:

 

Kyle Orton:

65.6 comp %, 1,387 yds, 10 TDs, 3 INTs, 98.4 rating

 

Projected over a 12 game season:

3,329 yds, 24 TDs, 7 INTs

 

I'll take that.

12 game season?

Are we going back in time to the 60's? LOL

 

 

 

[PromoTheRobot]

12 game season?

Are we going back in time to the 60's? LOL

 

His regular season will be 12 games. EJ started 4 or didja fergit?

Edited November 12, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[BADOLBILZ]

Starting Pitchers always say that their accuracy goes late in games not because of fatigue in their arms, but their legs from all of the throws. That may well have happened on Sunday. You and I both know he's usually a lot more accurate than that. It's too bad because early on (after one and a half quarters) I told my wife that this was the most accurate I had ever seen him. His first 12-15 passes or so were on target (including the 2 deliberate - and smart - throwaways), but there were 5 (!) bad drops. Te receiving corps let him down early on.

 

Agreed. He has a stronger throwing arm than Peyton Manning....but check Mannings legs versus Orton. It's the legs and core where these guys get the endurance late in games to repeat the throwing motion that they practice.

[Alphadawg7]

Here is the problem with this board...the people who hate EJ want to believe Orton is the second coming of Kelly. They make every excuse for him and bring up his stats to somehow elevate what actually occurs on the field.

 

THE REALITY is that neither Orton or EJ have led this offense to a good offensive outing since week 2. The Jets game was an anomaly and the score suggests the offense was better than it was. The defense created 6 turnovers...a backup QB on any team in this league is capable of putting up 43 when the ball is given to him so many times with incredible field position. The truth about the Jets game is that the offense stalled so much that after 3 first half turnovers by Geno, the Jets got back in the game because the offense couldn't keep from going 3 and out (did it 9 times). Lucky, our D continued its dominance and got the ball 3 more times from Vick in his rusty fill in for Geno. The offense was terribly inefficient and has been since week 2.

 

Now Ortons numbers look great in theory because he had a 4 TD performance...but if you look at his QBR instead of his rating (which doesn't count bad sacks, fumbles, etc) he is actually ranked 28th...TWENTY EIGHT. And I don't care what stupid theory people have about ESPNS QBR, it is factually more accurate in grading the effectiveness of a quarterback than the old rating system. Doesn't mean its perfect, but its miles better than the old rating.

 

Orton has moments where he looks the part, then spends much larger chunks of the game not looking the part. We lost Sunday 100% because of the offense. Was it just Orton...of course not. But he was not good, was not good against the Pats, Lions, or Vikes either.

 

If the offense does not play better, including Orton, then this team will not make it to the playoffs and may not finish better than 8-8. Orton is not the long term answer, we need a QB in this draft or we need EJ to start to get it. And if this team falls below .500 then it needs to switch back to EJ to simply see if he has learned anything and can further develop before we go into next off season. We need answers, and so far, Orton isn't the answer and EJ was not the answer, but at least EJ might improve.

 

Until Orton or EJ can improve, if at all, then I stand by my statement we need to draft a QB early next year or find one on the open market.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Alphadawg7

[Jon in Pasadena]

Hell, even on that one "scramble" where he came up a yard short, every QB in the league other than Peyton maybe would've made the first down.

Random fact: Peyton's career longest rushing TD is 33 yards.

 

One guess who it was against.

[Alphadawg7]

In five games as a Bill:

 

Kyle Orton:

65.6 comp %, 1,387 yds, 10 TDs, 3 INTs, 98.4 rating

 

Projected over a 12 game season:

3,329 yds, 24 TDs, 7 INTs

 

I'll take that.

 

This is what I hate...stop reading stat lines and start watching games. Four of those TDs were gift wrapped by our D and Sammy against the Jets. What about his lost fumbles, bad sacks, missed wide open guys in the end zone and constant 3 and outs?

 

The offense is near the bottom of the league in every efficiency category...and Orton has started the most games.

 

Orton is the 28th ranked QB using the much more informative ESPN QBR which is all about evaluating how efficient and effective a QB is.

 

We are 2 plays away from being 1-4 under Orton. Detroit beat us, just no one told their kicker. And it took a late defensive stop and an incredible play by Sammy to steal a win with 1 second left against a 1 win Vikes team that had a rookie QB making his first road start in Buffalo.

 

In the Jets game, he had NINE 3 and outs. NINE.

 

He and this offense are amongst the worst in the league on third down. Our points per game is not very good outside the Jets abnormally where we got 6 defensive turnovers.

 

So you can take those cherry picked stats if you like, I prefer to take wins...and his on field week to week performance is not going to get us any wins against good teams which we have several of remaining on our schedule. I don't want the guy who can barely beat a bad team and lose to a good team. I want the guy who can go out with CONSISTENCY and play well to beat good teams.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Alphadawg7

[ProcessAccepted]

Ha, you're funny. Sorry, but EJ's not the answer. I'm pretty sure no one here has said that Orton is the franchise man either. We all know what we have in Orton. With the exception of a rate few, you're only pointing out the obvious.

 

Exactly. No one is saying Orton is Jim Kelly. He's just the best option we have. Stats do mean something no matter what some posters think

 

I think EJs longest pass play was he td to JJ Watt. Orton is not the long term answer, no one is saying that he is. He is just the answer right now

Edited November 12, 2014 by Catch it Sammy

[billykaykay]

Careful. Orton can apparently walk on water and its not his fault he couldn't complete a pass in the end zone to wide open receivers

 

I'm going to assume its all Cj's fault

The receiver was open on two of the throws , not all four.

[RyanC883]

LOL ! Everyone was talking about how he was rated in the top 6 (or thereabouts) last week. All good. He has a less than stellar performance yesterday and now he's flat-footed, has no pocket awareness, puts the ball in bad spots etc. C'mon guys.

 

I think the problem is that he hasn't had enough reps to throw the ball nearly 40 times a game. It's like putting a pitcher out there w/o building up the pitch count first. Where did our running game from last year go?!?!

[Maddog69]

 

 

I think the problem is that he hasn't had enough reps to throw the ball nearly 40 times a game. It's like putting a pitcher out there w/o building up the pitch count first. Where did our running game from last year go?!?!

Enough with the pathetic excuses for Orton. He's in the prime of his career. He's healthy. Did not throw in training camp. He can handle 40 pass attempts especially since many were very short anyways. It not like he's out there throwing 95 MPH fast balls.

[JC2002]

This is what I hate...stop reading stat lines and start watching games. Four of those TDs were gift wrapped by our D and Sammy against the Jets. What about his lost fumbles, bad sacks, missed wide open guys in the end zone and constant 3 and outs?

 

The offense is near the bottom of the league in every efficiency category...and Orton has started the most games.

 

Orton is the 28th ranked QB using the much more informative ESPN QBR which is all about evaluating how efficient and effective a QB is.

 

We are 2 plays away from being 1-4 under Orton. Detroit beat us, just no one told their kicker. And it took a late defensive stop and an incredible play by Sammy to steal a win with 1 second left against a 1 win Vikes team that had a rookie QB making his first road start in Buffalo.

 

In the Jets game, he had NINE 3 and outs. NINE.

 

He and this offense are amongst the worst in the league on third down. Our points per game is not very good outside the Jets abnormally where we got 6 defensive turnovers.

 

So you can take those cherry picked stats if you like, I prefer to take wins...and his on field week to week performance is not going to get us any wins against good teams which we have several of remaining on our schedule. I don't want the guy who can barely beat a bad team and lose to a good team. I want the guy who can go out with CONSISTENCY and play well to beat good teams.

 

lol at you telling people to stop analyzing the facts and instead do what you do and eliminate the facts to suit your own needs .

 

The amount of people I've seen in the past few days who just make outrageous are sometimes just fl;at out stupid remarks and demands is baffling considering I know they watch the games .

 

Any tds that are thrown with stadium facing east well lets eliminate those and while we are at it lets eliminate all td passes thrown while a hotdog is being sold to a single am under 40 .

 

Your demands change every week so that it suits your argument .

 

Every single win in the NFL is tough to start trying to pick and choose which ones matter and what scores actually count is ridiculous

 

We are two plays from being 1-4 well we are 4 plays from being 9-0 who the hell expects to have a realistic football discussion making these types of claims . Heck under your logic the Cardinals are 8 plays away from being 0-9 talk about some frauds .

 

I really don't think some of you realize just how crazy some of the stuff you write stuff reads

[GG]

 

Until Orton or EJ can improve, if at all, then I stand by my statement we need to draft a QB early next year or find one on the open market.

 

Well that's really going out on a limb.

[ProcessAccepted]

 

So you can take those cherry picked stats if you like, I prefer to take wins...and his on field week to week performance is not going to get us any wins against good teams which we have several of remaining on our schedule. I don't want the guy who can barely beat a bad team and lose to a good team. I want the guy who can go out with CONSISTENCY and play well to beat good teams.

 

So who are the good teams that we are not going to get wins against. I'm curious to see the list as I probably fall into the stat cherry picking group, especially the QB in the draft failure rate stat. I'm not sure that there is a QB in the draft for us next year with the picks that we have.

[Alphadawg7]

lol at you telling people to stop analyzing the facts and instead do what you do and eliminate the facts to suit your own needs .

 

The amount of people I've seen in the past few days who just make outrageous are sometimes just fl;at out stupid remarks and demands is baffling considering I know they watch the games .

 

Any tds that are thrown with stadium facing east well lets eliminate those and while we are at it lets eliminate all td passes thrown while a hotdog is being sold to a single am under 40 .

 

Your demands change every week so that it suits your argument .

 

Every single win in the NFL is tough to start trying to pick and choose which ones matter and what scores actually count is ridiculous

 

We are two plays from being 1-4 well we are 4 plays from being 9-0 who the hell expects to have a realistic football discussion making these types of claims . Heck under your logic the Cardinals are 8 plays away from being 0-9 talk about some frauds .

 

I really don't think some of you realize just how crazy some of the stuff you write stuff reads

 

Really? If anyone says anything negative about Orton, 3 things are immediately said.

 

1. 10 TD's, 3 INTs. Well great...now lets look at reality. 4 of those came in ONE game. In the other 4 games, he has 6TDs and 5 turnovers. Not as impressive. And considering we have played more than ONE game, thats pretty relevant.

 

2. 3-2 record. Well great...except that has nothing to do with how well HE played. Det missed all 3 FGs, only needing to hit one, or we lose because the offense was abysmal the whole game. And it wouldnt have even been close if not for Ortons pick six. NE, offense was bad and Ortons game ending INT sealed the loss. Minnesota he also played bad but fortunately had a great last drive that our D set up to win the game with one second left against a 2-4 team. KC he missed on 3 different drives guys very open in the end zone that any one of would have won the game and proceeded to have a pretty ineffective day.

 

So the record is great and I will take the wins, but its also not a true barometer of his INDIVIDUAL play.

 

3. We are more efficient with him. He has started the most games and we are near the bottom or at the bottom in every offensive and statistical category, including dead last in redzone efficiency. In comparison, we were 29th last year with 47% and now we are dead last at 32nd with 41%.

 

My demands as you called it are 100% the same each week. I want a QB who is CONSISTENT. Orton is the poster child of inconsistent. And the dumbest thing I see over and over again is when people analyze the week to week effectiveness by using totals that have absolutely no indication of week to week play. Saying he has 10TDs and 3 INTS is dumb as you conveniently ignore the fumbles and the fact that 40%, thats FORTY percent of his TD's came in ONE GAME that any capable backup QB in the NFL could have when the D dominates another team like it did the Jets with 6 turnovers.

 

Call me crazy...but I am a realist. We 100% lost because of the offense Sunday. And he is the most impactful player of that offense...he did not play well and missed throws you can not miss too many times. Other players came up short too like Bryces fumble that led to our loss, it was NOT all on Orton. But this isn't a discussion on the offense, its discussion on how Orton as an individual is playing.

 

He is playing better than how EJ played his last two games. I do feel Orton should start while we are in playoff contention. But I am also not going to sugar coat his week to week performance because I do not believe that will get us many wins against good teams, if any.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

So who are the good teams that we are not going to get wins against. I'm curious to see the list as I probably fall into the stat cherry picking group, especially the QB in the draft failure rate stat. I'm not sure that there is a QB in the draft for us next year with the picks that we have.

 

I dont disagree that finding a QB is hard and will be hard next year, if there is even one available the FO likes when we finally make a pick. I agree with you on that. I am just saying that I don't think Orton is the guy to get us back into the playoffs or make a SB run. I do feel we have the defense and enough offensive weapons to be in those discussions, but OL, QB, and OC are our achilles heal.

 

We are large underdogs against Green Bay, Denver, and NE. Now we play NE last game of the year, there is hope they sit a bunch of players if they have their seed locked up. But NE isn't the same team they were when we played them last, and we lost that one too. If we get them at full strength, it will be a tough game to win. Cleveland is also playing well and when we play them they will have 2 big offensive weapons back, Gordon and Cameron.

 

Thats 4 tough games...if we go 2-2 that will be a big accomplishment. I don't see anyway we beat Denver or Green Bay, I just don't. Can we beat Cleveland, I think we can, but I also don't think we will if our offense plays as inconsistent as it has been. I don't think we will beat NE unless they have their seed locked up, but they will probably be battling Denver to the very end for the top seed in the AFC. So I think 1-3 is more likely against those 4 teams and that means if we win out on the rest we will be 9-7 which likely does not get us in the playoffs in the AFC this year. We still have to play the Jets and Dolphins too, who usually play us tough. Jets looked like a different team this last week with Vick leading the show, so I don't expect a blow out win again. We get Miami on a short week too, so I expect this to be a tough game.

 

For me, our playoff chances are on life support after we blew the KC game, again like we did last KC game. Our schedule isn't very friendly rest of the way, only easy game for me is Oakland. I do think we beat the Jets and Dolphins, but I also don't think its a slam dunk. Every game outside the Denver, GB, and NE game is must win for us to have a legit shot at playoffs as I don't think we can win those 3 games as I don't think we have the offensive power to keep up.