KD in CA Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 you all keep repeating the chorus that the poor in this country aren't really poor. in fact, many really are and many are children. "perhaps if we stopped pretending that people were poor when they're not"…see kd's post 77. perhaps if you could read you'd be more qualified to judge my intellect. Please explain how our statements are in conflict. As you correctly point out, MANY really are poor. As I correctly pointed out, MANY really are not poor. We've added tens of millions to welfare rolls over the past six years (while continually redefining 'poor' higher and higher up the income scale), motivated by political gain rather than need. If we stop spending money on hand-outs to people who don't need them, perhaps we'd be better able to serve those who do.
TH3 Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 We have a model right now that guarantees a living wage - a GOP fave - the earned income tax credit
Azalin Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 why is it so unconsciounable to you to try a model that guarantees livable wages for unskilled labor? is it that awful label "marxism"? I'm not using any labels. pulling a number out of thin air and deciding that's the value of unskilled labor is placing false value on that labor. if anyone can do it, then there's not a lot of skill involved. if you can feed and clothe a family on unskilled wages, then you're going to produce a hell of a lot of unskilled labor, which benefits no one. and it takes more than just hard work - you have to be smart, too. just because someone gets a master's degree in philosophy or art history doesn't entitle them (or qualify them, for that matter) for big earnings. a practical skill that can be learned at any community college or tech school can get anyone an entry level position in almost any field, many of which pay quite well. you appear to look at things from the top-down, looking to find a way to make 'the system' more equitable, where I look from the bottom-up, looking to find a way to make the individual more accountable and responsible. comparing us to other nations, either in current terms or historically, our society has achieved as much as we have not by what's been given to us, but instead by what we've been allowed, or empowered, to do for ourselves. I believe it's a huge mistake to turn away from that philosophy.
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 you've never met anyone that's done nearly all the right things yet has struggled mightily in a financial sense? oh wait... If you're talking about me, I didn't "struggle mightily in a financial sense". I simply didn't have everything that everyone else had and, most importantly, I didn't have any measurable debt. Mostly because I had (wait for it)...SAVINGS. That's right, I put a little money away and got some life insurance as well to make sure my family would survive if something happened to either (or both) providers. I didn't live in a house paid for by someone else or with a nut I couldn't afford, drive cars I couldn't afford, or waste money on frivolities that the average "poor" person enjoys today. Your "solutions" are the reason so few poor people really participate in the work force today. The fact that you think raising the minimum wage is going to change anything in the long term shows how little you actually understand about economics. Try again, educated drone.
B-Man Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 TAXES: New CBO study shows that ‘the rich’ don’t just pay their ‘fair share,’ they pay almost everybody’s share. The graphic is stunning. .
/dev/null Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 Mostly because I had (wait for it)...SAVINGS. That's right, I put a little money away and got some life insurance as well to make sure my family would survive if something happened to either (or both) providers. I didn't live in a house paid for by someone else or with a nut I couldn't afford, drive cars I couldn't afford, or waste money on frivolities that the average "poor" person enjoys today. Wealth Horder!!! You didn't make that money, somebody else did. It's your patriotic duty to spend it. It's also your patriotic duty to live beyond your means by taking out loans that you cannot afford to repay so that you can buy stuff and pump money into the economy Economic Terrorist! And what frivolties do America's poor have access to? Everybody should be guaranteed taxpayer subsidized access to Mountain Dew and Funyions
keepthefaith Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 If we stop spending money on hand-outs to people who don't need them, perhaps we'd be better able to serve those who do. :thumbsup:
birdog1960 Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 TAXES: New CBO study shows that ‘the rich’ don’t just pay their ‘fair share,’ they pay almost everybody’s share. The graphic is stunning. . not stunning at all. it shows that the people that hold the vast majority of the nations wealth and a hugely skewed portion of the income, pay a disproportionate amount of taxes. so what? what's not mentioned is the direct or indirect economic benefits many of these same high wealth individuals and groups receive from the gov't such as subsidized pay in the form of food stamps and medicare for their underpaid workers or the clout to allow shady businesses like payday lenders to persist or near zero interest loans to financial institutions for years or seeming immunity from jail time for serious financial crimes or... what dollar value do you give those type of perks?
TakeYouToTasker Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 not stunning at all. it shows that the people that hold the vast majority of the nations wealth and a hugely skewed portion of the income, pay a disproportionate amount of taxes. so what? what's not mentioned is the direct or indirect economic benefits many of these same high wealth individuals and groups receive from the gov't such as subsidized pay in the form of food stamps and medicare for their underpaid workers or the clout to allow shady businesses like payday lenders to persist or near zero interest loans to financial institutions for years or seeming immunity from jail time for serious financial crimes or... what dollar value do you give those type of perks? How about you tell us, in very specific language, how much the average individual earning $237k in total earnings, including income from labor, business, and investments; is having their pay subsidized by food stamps or medicare to unskilled labor, is profiting from payday loans, or "immunity from serious financial crimes" whatever the !@#$ that means. 237k isn't alot of money. It's not even enough to qualify someone as middle class.
Azalin Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 TAXES: New CBO study shows that ‘the rich’ don’t just pay their ‘fair share,’ they pay almost everybody’s share. The graphic is stunning. . the comments are entertaining as well.
IDBillzFan Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 you've never met anyone that's done nearly all the right things yet has struggled mightily in a financial sense? Sure. I've also met people who spent their entire life taking care of their body, only to have it snuffed out by brain cancer. I've met people who were the first in their family to get a college degree after working three jobs to afford higher education, become wildly successful in their field, only to end up on the streets because a line of coke, a lot of drinks, a decision to drive and an ill-timed pedestrian put him in prison for years. You keep making your argument based on the "leave no one behind, regardless" philosophy, which is a waste of time for two reasons: (1) you can never save everyone, no matter how hard you try and (2) if that philosophy worked, progressives wouldn't be so adamant about allowing late-term abortions or granting amnesty to every illegal on the block. You currently seem to be making your argument for the sake of having an argument to make, regardless of how ridiculous it is.
3rdnlng Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 What could be the unintended consequences of raising the minimum wage to $12-15 an hour?
KD in CA Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 not stunning at all. it shows that the people that hold the vast majority of the nations wealth and a hugely skewed portion of the income, pay a disproportionate amount of taxes. so what? The 'so what' comes in to play when certain people whine that paying everyone's taxes isn't enough.
birdog1960 Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 Sure. I've also met people who spent their entire life taking care of their body, only to have it snuffed out by brain cancer. I've met people who were the first in their family to get a college degree after working three jobs to afford higher education, become wildly successful in their field, only to end up on the streets because a line of coke, a lot of drinks, a decision to drive and an ill-timed pedestrian put him in prison for years. You keep making your argument based on the "leave no one behind, regardless" philosophy, which is a waste of time for two reasons: (1) you can never save everyone, no matter how hard you try and (2) if that philosophy worked, progressives wouldn't be so adamant about allowing late-term abortions or granting amnesty to every illegal on the block. You currently seem to be making your argument for the sake of having an argument to make, regardless of how ridiculous it is. everyone can't be saved. bad choices, bad luck, bad karma, bad protoplasm and genetics, bad stuff happens. many progressives including me argue that people should be given the opportunity to succeed in realistic scenarios. somebody with an iq of 78, absentee parents, crappy schools and no role models is pretty unlikely to enter professional life. but they are pretty likely to be able to support themselves on a minimum wage unskilled job that pays a living wage.
IDBillzFan Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 everyone can't be saved. bad choices, bad luck, bad karma, bad protoplasm and genetics, bad stuff happens. many progressives including me argue that people should be given the opportunity to succeed in realistic scenarios. somebody with an iq of 78, absentee parents, crappy schools and no role models is pretty unlikely to enter professional life. but they are pretty likely to be able to support themselves on a minimum wage unskilled job that pays a living wage. What are you talking about? A person like you described has EVERY opportunity -- if not, MORE opportunity -- to get help, get to school, get to college, learn a trade, all for free, and make WAY above minimum wage over the long term. And bonus point: guess WHY so many of these kids struggle with absentee parents: because progressives have actually developed an incentive program for deadbeat parents to increase the amount of free schitt they get for every extra child they add to their roster. Do you have any idea how phucking moronic that is? Of course not.
Chef Jim Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 oh, and i didn't live in a bubble. i worked extremely hard for what i've got and took risks. but then again, i had many advantages: good genes, good parenting, good schools, solid middle class home, plenty of excellent role models in family and friends…i never said life was meant to be easy. i'm saying that 2 or 3 jobs shouldn't be required to provide necessities. it's not an all or nothing stance, unlike yours. Other than the good school how is your "wealth tax" going to provide those advantage you had? Take children away from bad parents, role models and friends? More taxes will solve none of those issues.
Rob's House Posted November 17, 2014 Author Posted November 17, 2014 you've never met anyone that's done nearly all the right things yet has struggled mightily in a financial sense? oh wait... Neither have you. I know you've never been close to poor, nor have you really been close to anyone who has been. You talk about the poor like a priest talks about pu$$y.
birdog1960 Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 Other than the good school how is your "wealth tax" going to provide those advantage you had? Take children away from bad parents, role models and friends? More taxes will solve none of those issues. it's not.. except that soem of my best role models were teachers. they'll likely have to try harder than i did to reach the same career level. that might not be achievable however. self sufficiency would seem a reasonable goal to start with. anything more is on the individual.
KD in CA Posted November 17, 2014 Posted November 17, 2014 Other than the good school how is your "wealth tax" going to provide those advantage you had? Take children away from bad parents, role models and friends? More taxes will solve none of those issues. It's not going to make schools 'good' either. The US already spends more than anywhere else on education and many of our schools are still a mess. Another billion dollar sop to the teachers unions doesn't improve any child's classroom experience. On the contrary, it damages it. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/
Rob's House Posted November 17, 2014 Author Posted November 17, 2014 It's not going to make schools 'good' either. The US already spends more than anywhere else on education and many of our schools are still a mess. Another billion dollar sop to the teachers unions doesn't improve any child's classroom experience. On the contrary, it damages it. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-education-spending-tops-global-list-study-shows/ Not only that, but anyone who thinks additional funding for public schools is the missing ingredient to freeing kids from poverty doesn't know squat about the people they claim to want to help.
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