prissythecat Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 That's the point. It's a crap shoot. You increase your odds with more picks. Quality over quantity . How has New England done with all those draft picks they tried to hoard?
Maddog69 Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) I like Watkins and believe he will be a great player for the Bills, I still have a hard time with the high price it took to get him in terms of picks traded to acquire the choice used on Sammy. While this type of move might make sense for a team like Atlanta when they did it for Julio Jones because they had all of the other pieces, the Bills are not there. At the time of the move, I felt it was very risky especially with all of the question marks around EJ. Fast forward to now and it is even more questionable because EJ has not taken any steps forward and it appears we are back to square 1 at QB. Like I said, I'm not arguing about how good Sammy is or whether he deserved to be picked where he was. I just believe the Bills may have made the wrong choice. Hopefully we get lucky and are able to find a QB out of nowhere otherwise Sammy's greatness might be squandered. Quality over quantity . How has New England done with all those draft picks they tried to hoard? well, they do have a few Lombardi trophys (*none since they got caught cheating, though. Had to add that) Edited November 10, 2014 by Maddog69
John from Riverside Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 Antonio Brown - Round 6 (195) Demaryius Thomas - Round 1 (22) T.Y Hilton - Round 3 (92) Golden Tate - Round 2 (60) Jordy Nelson - Round 2 (36) Julio Jones - Round 1 (6) Emmanuel Sanders - Round 3 (82) Dez Bryant - Round 1 (24) Jeremy Maclin - Round 1 (19) Desean Jackson -Round 2 (49) Just another reason you don't waste exorbitant resources on WR's especially those that hinder future decision making. You waste those resources to find the QB. So out of 10 WR's.....FOUR of them were drafted in the 1st round That is a rather large percent......and kills your arguement
Deranged Rhino Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 I like Watkins and believe he will be a great player for the Bills, I still have a hard time with the high price it took to get him in terms of picks traded to acquire the choice used on Sammy. While this type of move might make sense for a team like Atlanta when they did it for Julio Jones because they had all of the other pieces, the Bills are not there. At the time of the move, I felt it was very risky especially with all of the question marks around EJ. Fast forward to now and it is even more questionable because EJ has not taken any steps forward and it appears we are back to square 1 at QB. Like I said, I'm not arguing about how good Sammy is or whether he deserved to be picked where he was. I just believe the Bills may have made the wrong choice. Hopefully we get lucky and are able to find a QB out of nowhere otherwise Sammy's greatness might be squandered. well, they do have a few Lombardi trophys (*none since they got caught cheating, though. Had to add that) In your mind, does the presence of a game-changing WR on the roster improve the chances a high profile FA QB wants to come to Buffalo or decrease the chances? If it increases the chances (which I think it does), and considering there were no franchise QBs in this draft and do not appear to be any coming out in '15 (people might argue Marriota is, I am not one of those) -- doesn't trading up for Sammy actually improve the odds of the Bills finally getting a QB of note? Weapons matter. And the draft isn't the only place QBs can be found -- certainly not the first round. The worry over losing picks hurting this team's chances of finding a QB is the biggest myth in circulation at the moment. It just isn't the case.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) It goes both ways on trading up or down IMO. There is no absolute. It depends on the player that you want to go up for in terms of trading up. What is that guy worth? What risk is associated with him? How much better is he than the alternatives? In terms of trading down it boils down to how closely the players are graded. If you have 7 guys that are virtually identical and you have a chance to slide down 6 spots and add another asset you do it. If there is a large gap between the guy there now and what may be there 6 picks later you don't. I just don't think that the decision can be made in a vacuum. It has to account for the specific players. If you are going up for a guy you better be sure that he is almost "bust proof." What I mean by that is a high floor. If you are going to wager other assets you have to make sure that you are getting someone that will contribute. I'd never trade up for a guy with question marks. In this past draft Watkins and Mack were the 2 guys that I would have traded up for. In hindsight this draft has produced some really good players (those 2 included) but at the time they were the safest that also had upside. Edited November 10, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
John from Riverside Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 Yeah, he started calling me a "casual" in another thread and must have liked it. He's consistently one of the worst posters that we have. His contributions include profound thoughts like "you need a good QB." It's amazing that someone could have that many posts and never say anything of substance. Oh well, I enjoy intelligent football conversation with the overwhelming majority of people on here (at least as intelligent as someone with my football accumen can comprehend). I dont think he likes it that you know a little more of what is going on with the team then the rest of us.....some people are just jealous and have to attack You have made your point quite clear: You like to complain without providing alternatives. This assures you always have the higher ground in discussions, which is pretty awesome for you but completely devoid of insight and a waste of time on a message board. In short, it's the coward's way to converse, and you got it in spades. But I get it. Some people don't have the ability to create original thoughts, but everyone likes to complain. You know I never understood fans that did that....... Wa Wa Wa - Just fix it - I dont know myself how to fix it - BUT I know your doing it wrong Everyone has a right to a opinion...but dont expect me to take a opinion seriously if you cannot offer how you feel it will be fixed Bottom line.....almost every argument seems to go back to the QB......of which regardless of where they are drafted FAIL
thebandit27 Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 That's the point. It's a crap shoot. You increase your odds with more picks. Okay, I can understand that logic. Isn't it also fair to say that you increase your odds by picking from a larger pool of prospects?
birdog1960 Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 Quality over quantity . How has New England done with all those draft picks they tried to hoard? is this a joke? are you betting they aren't goingt to the playoffs?
Kirby Jackson Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 I don't get into hypotheticals, it serves no interest. I know casuals love alternate reality. My point in this thread is solely on philosophy and why it isn't in the best interest of this franchise to do what Whaley did this year. The evidence is startling. Yeah Greg get your conjecture and foresight out of here!! The best way to form an opinion is to criticize it in hindsight. It doesn't matter what we would do instead. All that matters is what they did was wrong!!
Deranged Rhino Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) I don't get into hypotheticals, it serves no interest. I know casuals love alternate reality. My point in this thread is solely on philosophy and why it isn't in the best interest of this franchise to do what Whaley did this year. The evidence is startling. And yet, you offer no explanation for what you would have done differently. You say the only position to trade up for is QB but there weren't QBs around that will make a difference and there aren't any coming out in '15. There is more than one way to skin a cat and your philosophy was innovative a decade ago -- now you're behind the curve, as evidenced by your thinking. There also aren't any guaranteed super stars coming out like Watkins. Don't you think adding a super star WR helps attract QBs to your roster? Yeah Greg get your conjecture and foresight out of here!! The best way to form an opinion is to criticize it in hindsight. It doesn't matter what we would do instead. All that matters is what they did was wrong!! Edited November 10, 2014 by GreggyT
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 10, 2014 Author Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) And yet, you offer no explanation for what you would have done differently. You say the only position to trade up for is QB but there weren't QBs around that will make a difference and there aren't any coming out in '15. There is more than one way to skin a cat and your philosophy was innovative a decade ago -- now you're behind the curve, as evidenced by your thinking. There also aren't any guaranteed super stars coming out like Watkins. Don't you think adding a super star WR helps attract QBs to your roster? I haven't seen a single high profile WR in this thread win a superbowl yet. Majority are scratching at the surface to make the playoffs. You are behind the times. Edited November 10, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever
Jauronimo Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 Everyone knows the best way to get rich is to win the lottery. I find it comical that so many people choose not to win the lottery. Similarly having a top 5 QB is the best way for sustained success in the NFL. Why doesn't Buffalo get a top 5 QB? Its mind boggling.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 10, 2014 Author Posted November 10, 2014 This is the height of stupidity. You've managed to top yourself. You're the only one dealing in absolutes in this thread, which is why you're wrong. Please, I was on this site for years banging on the "Franchise QB" drum -- before the rule changes altered the game to make it what it's become. Now everyone and their mother is trying to find the next Luck, meaning the scouting and competition for elite talent is better than ever. That makes it infinitely more difficult to acquire a "sure-thing" at QB in the draft outside of the top 2 picks -- making those price for those picks astronomical. Trading up for a QB is a horrible idea (look at the Redskins) unless it's 100% the guy. But there are plenty of other ways to acquire a franchise QB that do not involve the draft or trading up. One of the ways is to build your skill positions up in an effort to attract a gunslinger who's looking for a change of scenery. Buffalo's inability to land a QB has had as much to do with the dismal state of their roster over the past decade as it has been poor drafting and front office decisions. But, you know, I'm a casual and haven't thought about this stuff like you have. Clearly your method for building a winning football team from 2004 is superior here. I'm all for building heavily in other areas, WR is just not a top priority.
NDBUFFCUSEFAN Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 i only post while wearing business casual. does that make me a casual? Gonna need pics of your business briefs.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 10, 2014 Author Posted November 10, 2014 Everyone knows the best way to get rich is to win the lottery. I find it comical that so many people choose not to win the lottery. Similarly having a top 5 QB is the best way for sustained success in the NFL. Why doesn't Buffalo get a top 5 QB? Its mind boggling. I've always said one of the worst things to happen to Buffalo in the last 15 years is that they never bottomed out. At least the Sabres have finally realized this.
Maddog69 Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) It goes both ways on trading up or down IMO. There is no absolute. It depends on the player that you want to go up for in terms of trading up. What is that guy worth? What risk is associated with him? How much better is he than the alternatives? In terms of trading down it boils down to how closely the players are graded. If you have 7 guys that are virtually identical and you have a chance to slide down 6 spots and add another asset you do it. If there is a large gap between the guy there now and what may be there 6 picks later you don't. I just don't think that the decision can be made in a vacuum. It has to account for the specific players. If you are going up for a guy you better be sure that he is almost "bust proof." What I mean by that is a high floor. If you are going to wager other assets you have to make sure that you are getting someone that will contribute. I'd never trade up for a guy with question marks. In this past draft Watkins and Mack were the 2 guys that I would have traded up for. In hindsight this draft has produced some really good players (those 2 included) but at the time they were the safest that also had upside. High profile QBs don't hit free agency all that often. If you're trying to say that's the Bills plan, that a desperate argument. "Hey lets trade a bunch of picks to get a good WR in the draft so in a year or two we can sign Tom Brady". LOL. I've always said one of the worst things to happen to Buffalo in the last 15 years is that they never bottomed out. At least the Sabres have finally realized this. They've bottomed out repeatedly. They had several top 10 picks. They just haven't been lucky enough to get a franchise QB with one of them. We did get Dareus, who is awesome. We also got Spiller and Leodis (mixed opinions). Oh, and Sammy. He looks like a good one if he can stay healthy (??) Edited November 10, 2014 by Maddog69
BuffaloBillsForever Posted November 10, 2014 Author Posted November 10, 2014 (edited) High profile QBs don't hit free agency all that often. If you're trying to say that's the Bills plan, that a desperate argument. "Hey lets trade a bunch of picks to get a good WR in the draft so in a year or two we can sign Tom Brady". LOL. They've bottomed out repeatedly. They had several top 10 picks. They just haven't been lucky enough to get a franchise QB with one of them. We did get Dareus, who is awesome. We also got Spiller and Leodis (mixed opinions). Oh, and Sammy. He looks like a good one if he can stay healthy (??) I'm talking about bottoming out for the #1 overall. With all the seasons of losing they never managed to luck into that chance of an automatic franchise changing player. The Sabres are hoping for that right now. Edited November 10, 2014 by BuffaloBillsForever
Kirby Jackson Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 High profile QBs don't hit free agency all that often. If you're trying to say that's the Bills plan, that a desperate argument. "Hey lets trade a bunch of picks to get a good WR in the draft so in a year or two we can sign Tom Brady". LOL. I don't remember saying that? Maybe I am losing my mind but if you can link to where I said that I'd appreciate it. There are ways of acquiring QBs outside of the top half of the 1st round Alex Smith, Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Colin Kaepernick, Brian Hoyer, Carson Palmer and Aaron Rodgers were all acquired by their current teams in another manner. I'm talking about bottoming out for the #1 overall. With all the seasons of losing they never managed to get that automatic franchise changing player. The Sabres are hoping for that right now. Who were those franchise changing guys at the time? Luck? Is that it? So the Bills didn't finish last the year that he went 1st. They could have finished last the year that Jamarcus went 1st and been worse off. Stafford & Newton are good but have won as many playoff games as me if that's the criteria. Alex Smith became a good player in his 7th year or whatever it was. Andrew Luck is the only guy that fits that franchise changing player.
Bob Malooga Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 I think the point to try and prove would be that the Bills would be just as well off with Benjamin or Evans, and a 2015 first round pick.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 10, 2014 Posted November 10, 2014 I think the point to try and prove would be that the Bills would be just as well off with Benjamin or Evans, and a 2015 first round pick. Except Evans was gone and they are on record as saying that the pick would have been Ebron if they could trade up. We are talking about Ebron and pick 18(ish) next year or Sammy.
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