A Dog Named Kelso Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Guards are like a 1st baseman. You don't miss having a great one until you have a bad one, then you really really miss having one. It was unreal how many people had NO issue letting Levitre walk, despite knowing we were gonna start a rookie qb the following season and we had the room to at least tag the guy for last season, then evaluate our new guard talent for this year and decide to sign him or not. One of the most shortsighted calls since the Pat Williams move. I don't think people realized they would be letting Chad go too. That was why people were comfortable with Levitre leaving.
vincec Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 in today's nfl I would certainly add wr to that list. Pretty nice having an elite wr isn't it? To that point I would much rather have Sammy Watkins and issues at guard than a good interior line and TJ Graham in my starting lineup. P.s. I hate ragging on Graham, he seemed like a really nice guy. I would genuinely feel bad if he ever read the way I talk about him. I hear you and you're probably right about WR, although I always wonder when I see a team like New England throw the ball around so effectively with strong OL and QB and no WRs to speak of.
3rdand12 Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 I don't think people realized they would be letting Chad go too. That was why people were comfortable with Levitre leaving. That seemed a very short sighted move at the time . Levitre , i understood a little better
A Dog Named Kelso Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 The thing is the Bills have the same members for the line they had under Gailey(outside of RG), Marrone refuses to play them in the same position. If he would move from the Bigger is Better thought process, he would only have one position to fill instead of now he is trying to fill 3.
The Frankish Reich Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 The thing is the Bills have the same members for the line they had under Gailey(outside of RG), Marrone refuses to play them in the same position. If he would move from the Bigger is Better thought process, he would only have one position to fill instead of now he is trying to fill 3. Right. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good (enough). Go back to Urbik and Hairston until at least 1 or 2 of this year's draft picks emerges as a solid contributor.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Its hard to imagine how the Bills could have whiffed so badly with their 2nd and 5th picks (7th doesn't count, everyone knew he was a 1 or 2 talent, that was a no-gamble pick—if it works, great, in not, no big deal). I suspect there is more of an issue of coaching philosophy here than talent (but, a bad coaching philosophy has led to bad talent). What is the one thing that all Bills line players have in common? Answer: They are all big, huge men. It seems, we have drafted and signed players who are big first, athletic second. Obviously, if you can get both, you win. But I suspect we are just too slow and un-atheltic to compete against the more nimble, quicker d-linemen of the NFL today. And that won't change with the current crop. I'm sure the hope was we could be a road-grading team, but it is also apparent we are not strong/powerful enough (physics lesson here: power comes from the combination of strength and quickness/athleticism) to do that either. I really think the Marrone philosophy of "bigger is better" needs to be challenged and changed. You know, you have a very valid point here. Some teams are definitely into wanting players who "look the way you want your (QB, OG, fill in the blank) to look". This philosophy leads to absurdity such as drafting Blaine "Looks the way you want your QB to look" Gabbert above Russell "Plays his a** off and gets the results you want from your QB" Wilson. Scouts and FOs have to be willing to recognize that talent doesn't necessarily come with the prototypical body type, and that a guy with the prototypical body type can't necessarily be "coached up" to do what the guys who've shown top talent do naturally.
JohnC Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 The problem with drafting a guard high is that you then have to pay him if he turns out to be as good as expected, and most teams don't want to pay OGs top money because they need it for the premium positions like QB, OT, DE, DT, MLB and CB. So, it's not that they aren't valuable, it's that premium guards don't typically fit into a logical salary structure for a team, IMO. If a player performs at an elite level the organization will have to pay him at the going rate. How else are you going to do it? Wish that the player plays at a mediocre level so you can pay him accordingly? Most teams have only a handful of top tier players. Because of the salary cap you can't keep all your good players. That cap casualty situation applies to all teams. The smart organizations prepare for such scenarios by drafting well so that the players that you are forced to let go due to cap considerations can be replaced by younger and cheaper players. By not drafting well you end up in situations where you are forced to spend in the free agent market more than you should for a mediocre player such as OG Chris Williams. Because the guard position was staffed at such an abysmal level the organization spent way too much on another mediocre talent. How does that get you ahead?
Saint Doug Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 (edited) I don't think people realized they would be letting Chad go too. That was why people were comfortable with Levitre leaving. Actually I remember us being fine with it if it meant us signing Byrd to a long-term contract. And we know how that turned out. I also remember the Bills believing Cornell a Green was their answer for their woes at LT. It tells me the Bills, while they want a good o-line, they're not willing to pay the price for a great one. Edited November 9, 2014 by Saint Doug
thewildrabbit Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Me too. There are a number of elite D tackles that are picked in the 1st round these days. We have one in Dareus. In my opinion, if you are going to try to block one of these monsters with a slow ploddy big power guy you are doomed to failure. The Bills running game is so limited by the inability to go anywhere but between the tackles and by the fact that the linemen just cannot get out ahead of wider run plays or screens and are not athletic enough to block the elite athletic DT's so many teams now offer up.. I think Marrone's philosophy of bigger is better is a vestige of the 70's. It is, in my opinion, the main reason this team is struggling so much to sustain offense. They do hit big plays from time to time but they just cannot drive the ball on long marches and are behind on down and distance routinely putting added pressure on Orton and the pass blocking.The D and ST's have been way above average. Even an average offensive line and the Bills would be a team to be reckoned with. I do not have good vibes on the 2nd half of the season as I just don't think this offense is up to the task. This is an excellent point. To try and block an elite DT with a 3rd rounder or later is simply absurd, unless they have years of experience, and are great at their jobs. We saw what happened with a celebrated college player in Richardson. I wonder what type of pay the veteran elite OG's command nowadays? There is a significant reason why players are drafted in the later rounds as they are considered to be high risk, low chance of ever developing into a top starter, much less an elite player at any position. It just makes common sense to me that if you want to compete against an elite player, that you need someone with comparable talent. Like I said, players drafted by Buffalo after the 3rd round that become long term starters or even impact players for a few years are almost nonexistent.
Big Blitz Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Guards need to be smart. Good football IQ. Just like your center. They gotta make calls and adjustments up front and think and react quicker to all the stunts and exotic blitzes they see.
The Frankish Reich Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Guards need to be smart. Good football IQ. Just like your center. They gotta make calls and adjustments up front and think and react quicker to all the stunts and exotic blitzes they see. Or experienced, which is often the same thing. Defensive lines were killing Richardson with all the stunts. Richardson may learn.
CSBill Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 (edited) Whoa, backup cowboy. You said we whiffed on picks 2 and 5, but striking gold with the 7 doesn't count because everyone knew Seantrel was a round 1 or 2 talent? Says who? The people who rated Cyrus and Richardson higher than Seantrel? Seantrel fell because of his head and a history of problems, not becuase he didn't have the ability. He was not drafted because everyone had basically given up on him and his troubles. I am glad the Bills took the gamble, it has paid off. But yes, he was graded as at least a 2nd round talent, but last round head. Edited November 9, 2014 by CSBill
Saxum Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 IMO I think the mistake was not interviewing any of the assistant coaches who previous worked for Bills but instead cleared the slate despite the Bills were under obligation to pay the coaches. The outgoing OL coach could have told Bills strengths and weaknesses and they could have hired assistants to work with them who were promotable. He appeared to hurry to put together staff before his choices were picked by other teams but that does not necessarily his coaches were better than coaches working for Bills before. I have had managers at work do that when they replaced the boss with lots of people getting severance pay. Some of people hired were flops, were laid off and new manager almost lost job too.
BillsVet Posted November 9, 2014 Posted November 9, 2014 Guards need to be smart. Good football IQ. Just like your center. They gotta make calls and adjustments up front and think and react quicker to all the stunts and exotic blitzes they see. Which is what NE's OL usually are. I don't even know their interior 3 OL right now, but Buffalo got very little pressure up the middle in the 2nd half a few weeks ago against NE. Brady's only been sacked 14 times this year, which while not all either QB or OL, is not much. And pretty good considering the Pats have had multiple OL injuries this year. I don't think the personnel group is aligned with the coaching staff. It happened with Nix and Gailey when the former wanted the biggest OL and then they drafted a waterbug back. And I sense it happening again. A guy like Urbik has been benched in favor of a RT who's among the worst RG's in the game. Judging OL talent and using it appropriately is something just about every personnel/coaching tandem has been wrong about since the mid nineties.
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