Bangarang Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 It tells me that Joe B needs to stop pretending to be a football scouting professional. I enjoy reading a lot of what Joe B. writes but he certainly does try way too hard to act like he knows how to scout college or NFL players. When talking about college players he always refers to "watching the tape" when all he does is watch the same YouTube videos as everyone else. The only real difference between him and people here that try and scout is that he has the platform for his opinions to be heard and credited by those around him on WGR who refer to him as the scouting guru.
NoSaint Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Chad followed Joe D'Alesandris, our old O-Line coach to San Diego. He didn't want to stay in Buffalo. I thought he requested to be be allowed to follow him or something. I forget the contract/FA situation, but have heard that a couple times. I really miss having athletic guards that could pull and actually get out in front of screen plays. Pretty sure he was just a ufa that realized he was better off staying with a coach/scheme than a city. If we made a push to keep him I'd be amazed if he left but if all things are equal of course he will choose the spot that he feel most loyalty from and joe d would be the logical winner of they got along
CardinalScotts Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 It tells me that Joe B needs to stop pretending to be a football scouting professional. thank god someone said it, this guy is treated on wgr and HERE like he's a former scout or player personnel guy....from intern to hey cover the Bills and his word is gold at GR it cracks me up
JohnC Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Chad followed Joe D'Alesandris, our old O-Line coach to San Diego. He didn't want to stay in Buffalo. I thought he requested to be be allowed to follow him or something. I forget the contract/FA situation, but have heard that a couple times. I really miss having athletic guards that could pull and actually get out in front of screen plays. It's understandable that a player prefers playing for a coach he is comfortable with. It is also understandable that a player prefers playing in one part of the country over another. In cases like that it's not unreasonble to pay a premium to retain that player. From a player standpoint there is a clear recognition that it is a business and it is his livelihood with short career span. Paying a competent player a little more than you want is much better than going cheap and playing an incompetent player who is so consistently overwhelmed that it has a negative effect on the whole line. The Bills gave out a generous contract to Williams, a player who struggled on multiple teams. Even before he was hurt his level of play was not very laudable. I can't say for sure but odds are that Rinehart would have stayed if the money disparity between the Chargers (or any other team) would have been meaningful. On our line the problem isn't so much about having average players it is having players (mostly)at the guard positions that are weak links that get so exploited that it hinders what the offense can do. I really miss having athletic guards that could pull and actually get out in front of screen plays. Coaches have different philosophies. Marrone prefers big bulky linemen over light and athletic linemen. He favors the power straight ahead blocking scheme. That is why the run play calling repertoire is limited to an inside running game. The offensive linemen he has on the roster are incapable of proficiently executing screen passes and sweep plays. The system that is in place is a system where Spiller's elite skills are not suited for.
PromoTheRobot Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) Its hard to imagine how the Bills could have whiffed so badly with their 2nd and 5th picks (7th doesn't count, everyone knew he was a 1 or 2 talent, that was a no-gamble pick—if it works, great, in not, no big deal). I suspect there is more of an issue of coaching philosophy here than talent (but, a bad coaching philosophy has led to bad talent). What is the one thing that all Bills line players have in common? Answer: They are all big, huge men. It seems, we have drafted and signed players who are big first, athletic second. Obviously, if you can get both, you win. But I suspect we are just too slow and un-atheltic to compete against the more nimble, quicker d-linemen of the NFL today. And that won't change with the current crop. I'm sure the hope was we could be a road-grading team, but it is also apparent we are not strong/powerful enough (physics lesson here: power comes from the combination of strength and quickness/athleticism) to do that either. I really think the Marrone philosophy of "bigger is better" needs to be challenged and changed. Whoa, backup cowboy. You said we whiffed on picks 2 and 5, but striking gold with the 7 doesn't count because everyone knew Seantrel was a round 1 or 2 talent? Says who? The people who rated Cyrus and Richardson higher than Seantrel? Edited November 8, 2014 by PromoTheRobot
Matt in KC Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 ... Coaches have different philosophies. Marrone prefers big bulky linemen over light and athletic linemen. He favors the power straight ahead blocking scheme. That is why the run play calling repertoire is limited to an inside running game. The offensive linemen he has on the roster are incapable of proficiently executing screen passes and sweep plays. The system that is in place is a system where Spiller's elite skills are not suited for. I agree with all of that. I don't mind a different preference for blocking scheme, but I worry the Bills painted themselves into a corner. I don't think they CAN run those plays decently, not just that they prefer not too. If Hackett doesn't work out, or if he sees we need to do something else, we don't have the personnel. It's frustrating since the personnel also don't seem to be executing his approach very well either. This looks like a case of forcing the plays into the scheme instead of planning to maximize the players' strengths. And I know that sounds loftier than reality; I'm not sure there is a scheme where Williams would have looked good. . . .
BELLABEANER Posted November 8, 2014 Author Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) As always, the reality is somewhere in the middle. You cannot put any old big guy at guard, otherwise you end up with Colin Brown. It's true that less athletic tackles can be kicked inside to guard, but guard isn't a place that you can simply hide a bad OT. There are different techniques and different priorities between the two positions. At OT, a guy needs to have at least a solid-if-unspectacular base of footwork, and arm length is very important. He also has the benefit of playing in space, which allows him to establish an initial set in pass protection that distances him from an oncoming defender; a guard doesn't have that luxury. Also, OTs tend to be able to get away with sloppier pad level if they use their arm length and strength to their advantage (because they are typically blocking smaller defenders). Inside at guard, things happen a lot faster, and there's less space to put between yourself and a defender in pass protection. Also, pad level is absolutely crucial, as you're typically facing larger DTs with lower centers of gravity. As to the idea of how high to draft guards, there's a bevy of examples from around the league that show that very, very good guards are often found in the 3rd and 4th rounds. Sure, there are guys that are drafted higher, and some of them are very good (i.e. Iupati, Zeitler), but just as many of them are relative busts (Cooper, Warmack). My opinion is that spending a 1st or 2nd round pick on a guard is unnecessary; I'd instead focus on 3rd and 4th round picks, where you can find guys like Larry Warford, Jahri Evans, Gabe Jackson, and about half the other quality starting guards in the league. Thanks. Thats a good answer. Still I wouldnt hesitate to pull the trigger on a guard in round two if I had a really strong feeling about him. Hope they figure it out. If this team had a strong o-line they would be playoff contenders for sure given the way kyle, Sammy, and the defense are playing. Edited November 8, 2014 by BELLABEANER
metzelaars_lives Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) Two years ago, our guard play was excellent when they had Levitre and Urbik (playing at a much higher level than last year). While I would concede that their guard play is in fact the worst in the NFL and is quite a hindrance to our offense at the moment, I am not that concerned that it's not something that can be fixed. I look at guards the same way I look at middle relievers. You can pick one up off the scrap heap and they can work out for a few years and then suddenly they're not so good anymore (see Urbik). I guess my point is- and I think Joe B, who I actually respect quite a bit, would agree with me- that I'm not too worried about it going into next year. They'll figure something out. And to your point, if they use a 2nd rounder on a guard, that's fine too. But like every other position on the football field, young players need time to develop. Who's to say Richardson won't develop into a quality starter. He definitely has the pedigree. Edited November 8, 2014 by metzelaars_lives
thebandit27 Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Thanks. Thats a good answer. Still I wouldnt hesitate to pull the trigger on a guard in round two if I had a really strong feeling about him. Hope they figure it out. If this team had a strong o-line they would be playoff contenders for sure given the way kyle, Sammy, and the defense are playing. I don't completely disagree with you... I think that the only time I'm taking a guard before round 3 is if I feel set basically everywhere else and feel that the guy is good enough to put me over the top.
yungmack Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Mark Kelso had an interesting thought about CJ's struggles, that he is so fast that he hits the line before the blocking opens a hole . He said Jamal Charles was having a similar problem until they had him setup farther back from the line. Don't have a clue if that's the real problem but if it is, you think a sharp OC would have fixed much like they did in KC.
norton20 Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 I really miss having athletic guards that could pull and actually get out in front of screen plays Me too. There are a number of elite D tackles that are picked in the 1st round these days. We have one in Dareus. In my opinion, if you are going to try to block one of these monsters with a slow ploddy big power guy you are doomed to failure. The Bills running game is so limited by the inability to go anywhere but between the tackles and by the fact that the linemen just cannot get out ahead of wider run plays or screens and are not athletic enough to block the elite athletic DT's so many teams now offer up.. I think Marrone's philosophy of bigger is better is a vestige of the 70's. It is, in my opinion, the main reason this team is struggling so much to sustain offense. They do hit big plays from time to time but they just cannot drive the ball on long marches and are behind on down and distance routinely putting added pressure on Orton and the pass blocking.The D and ST's have been way above average. Even an average offensive line and the Bills would be a team to be reckoned with. I do not have good vibes on the 2nd half of the season as I just don't think this offense is up to the task.
The Frankish Reich Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 We've had 3 awful performing positions on the O line this year, LG (Williams/Richardson), RG (Pears), RT (Seantrel). We fixed LG with Urbik. (By "fixed" I mean "no longer awful", which isn't the same thing as "good"). We can probably do a similar fix by playing Hairston at RT. I see no fix this season for RG. Seantrel has talent and has had his moments, but if anyone is thinking playoffs the switch away from Seantrel for the rest of the season is the simplest way to improve the offense for the second half.
Bills Fan of St Augustine Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Two years ago, our guard play was excellent when they had Levitre and Urbik (playing at a much higher level than last year). While I would concede that their guard play is in fact the worst in the NFL and is quite a hindrance to our offense at the moment, I am not that concerned that it's not something that can be fixed. I look at guards the same way I look at middle relievers. You can pick one up off the scrap heap and they can work out for a few years and then suddenly they're not so good anymore (see Urbik). I guess my point is- and I think Joe B, who I actually respect quite a bit, would agree with me- that I'm not too worried about it going into next year. They'll figure something out. And to your point, if they use a 2nd rounder on a guard, that's fine too. But like every other position on the football field, young players need time to develop. Who's to say Richardson won't develop into a quality starter. He definitely has the pedigree. That is what a lot of people said last year going into the draft. Why waste high picks on non skill position personnel? OL need time to develop and sure, you can find them in later rounds if you can evaluate talent. Even then, very few in the later rounds will be athletes who can step in and play at a high level right away. I think all three of our picks last year may develop into solid lineman over time. They just weren't the answer for this year and now we're paying the price. If we follow your thinking, we are still a few years away from having a competent OL and only if these mid and late round picks develop.I'm glad your not the GM for my baseball team!
kansascitykitty Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 I love how everybody lows about how much talent Whaley has brought in but tries to give him a pass for the 4 O-lineman he brought in this year.The O-line has bee the worst part of this team for a while and unless some of these guys come around fast you can forget the playoffs this year.As it gets colder and the weather is bad you have to be able to run the ball>This current O-line has shown no ability as of late to do that.
John from Riverside Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Joe B says you can find guards anywhere but half the teams in the NFL have issues at guard. So what does that tell you? Bingo
metzelaars_lives Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) I love how everybody lows about how much talent Whaley has brought in but tries to give him a pass for the 4 O-lineman he brought in this year.The O-line has bee the worst part of this team for a while and unless some of these guys come around fast you can forget the playoffs this year.As it gets colder and the weather is bad you have to be able to run the ball>This current O-line has shown no ability as of late to do that. all three of the linemen he drafted were GREAT value at the time he picked them. Not to mention two of them were late rounders. Let's give it a year, shall we? The Chris Williams signing was the dumbest move this organization has made since the drafting of TJ Graham. Edited November 8, 2014 by metzelaars_lives
JohnC Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 I don't completely disagree with you... I think that the only time I'm taking a guard before round 3 is if I feel set basically everywhere else and feel that the guy is good enough to put me over the top. I have a different take on drafting guards. If there is a high end guard such as Mangold, Mankins or Steve Hutchison I would have no qualms selecting a high ranking guard with a first round selection. Once you do that you don't have to worry about that position for another decade. Instead of going the revolving door route every year and overpaying for a free agent vet why not get the position stabilized and then move on to address the other needs. The Steelers used first round draft choices for DeCastro and Pouncy. I don't think that they were set back with their emphasis on investing in the interior line. The argument is often made that you can find quality guards at a lower round. That same argument can be made for every position, including the qb position. In a prior post you made the point that first round picks were wasted on Cooper and Warmack who have struggled. The mistake was due to poor evaluations, not the lack of importance of the guard position. High draft mistakes are made on all positions, not just the guard positions. I remember when during Levy's stint as a make believe GM he paid a hefty price for two mediocre linemen, Dockery and Langston Walker. If the team drafted well they wouldn't have to try to compensate for their poor player evaluations with over priced free agents.
vincec Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) The problem with drafting a guard high is that you then have to pay him if he turns out to be as good as expected, and most teams don't want to pay OGs top money because they need it for the premium positions like QB, OT, DE, DT, MLB and CB. So, it's not that they aren't valuable, it's that premium guards don't typically fit into a logical salary structure for a team, IMO. Edited November 8, 2014 by vincec
metzelaars_lives Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 (edited) The problem with drafting a guard high is that you then have to pay him if he turns out to be as good as expected, and most teams don't want to pay OGs top money because they need it for the premium positions like QB, OT, DE, DT, MLB and CB. So, it's not that they aren't valuable, it's that premium guards don't typically fit into a logical salary structure for a team, IMO. in today's nfl I would certainly add wr to that list. Pretty nice having an elite wr isn't it? To that point I would much rather have Sammy Watkins and issues at guard than a good interior line and TJ Graham in my starting lineup. P.s. I hate ragging on Graham, he seemed like a really nice guy. I would genuinely feel bad if he ever read the way I talk about him. Edited November 8, 2014 by metzelaars_lives
Webster Guy Posted November 8, 2014 Posted November 8, 2014 Guards are like a 1st baseman. You don't miss having a great one until you have a bad one, then you really really miss having one. It was unreal how many people had NO issue letting Levitre walk, despite knowing we were gonna start a rookie qb the following season and we had the room to at least tag the guy for last season, then evaluate our new guard talent for this year and decide to sign him or not. One of the most shortsighted calls since the Pat Williams move.
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