GUARD POSITION

[BELLABEANER]

There is this school of thought(Joe Buscaglia is a big proponent of this) that you can just plug any fat slob in at guard and your o-line will be fine. This theory further states that drafting a guard in the first or second round is a waste of a pick because there is suppossedly a very thin line between a guard you might get in round one vs a guy you might find at Zangs chinese buffett on friday night nailing his twentieth plate of stir fried beef. Can someone with actually technical knowledge explain. If I was GM I would draft two guards in our first three picks next year to try and fix what is the weakest part of our team. Many(Joe B included) wouldstick with the guy at Zangs. A theory Marrone apparently agrees with that has failed miserably.

[TheBillsWillRiseAgain]

Didn't they bring in a new guard and draft 3 more lineman in the draft before the season started?

[BELLABEANER]

They drafted a tackle in the second and seventh round. A guard in the fifth. The guy they brought in in FA was viewed by many as a failure in Chicago and St. Louis. Im talking about committing a high pick or two to guard. The Bills havent drafted a guard high since 2009 when they took Levitre in round two. Coincidently hes probably the best guard we have had in the last twenty years. Anyway thats really not my question.

[PromoTheRobot]

Joe B says you can find guards anywhere but half the teams in the NFL have issues at guard. So what does that tell you?

[26CornerBlitz]

Joe B says you can find guards anywhere but half the teams in the NFL have issues at guard. So what does that tell you?

 

It tells me that Joe B needs to stop pretending to be a football scouting professional.

[NoSaint]

Joe B says you can find guards anywhere but half the teams in the NFL have issues at guard. So what does that tell you?

 

that atleast like 16 of the 64 starting guards midway through the season arent very good?

[San-O]

Didn't they bring in a new guard and draft 3 more lineman in the draft before the season started?

+ 1 BINGO. Doesn't matter you find a guard, if you simply can't evaluate talent.

 

It's been posted before, how some of the Bills O-linemen "grade out" as being the worst in the NFL? Last year we had a couple guys, one I can't remember his name, was the worst. Commentators were even agreeing he wasn't really blocking, just trying to hang onto the other guy? How can they keep finding these absolute non-players at this position?

[nucci]

There is this school of thought(Joe Buscaglia is a big proponent of this) that you can just plug any fat slob in at guard and your o-line will be fine. This theory further states that drafting a guard in the first or second round is a waste of a pick because there is suppossedly a very thin line between a guard you might get in round one vs a guy you might find at Zangs chinese buffett on friday night nailing his twentieth plate of stir fried beef. Can someone with actually technical knowledge explain. If I was GM I would draft two guards in our first three picks next year to try and fix what is the weakest part of our team. Many(Joe B included) wouldstick with the guy at Zangs. A theory Marrone apparently agrees with that has failed miserably.

Where is this school?

[peterpan]

I found a G and his name is incognito!

[jr1]

don't worry, he's got this

[thebandit27]

There is this school of thought(Joe Buscaglia is a big proponent of this) that you can just plug any fat slob in at guard and your o-line will be fine. This theory further states that drafting a guard in the first or second round is a waste of a pick because there is suppossedly a very thin line between a guard you might get in round one vs a guy you might find at Zangs chinese buffett on friday night nailing his twentieth plate of stir fried beef. Can someone with actually technical knowledge explain. If I was GM I would draft two guards in our first three picks next year to try and fix what is the weakest part of our team. Many(Joe B included) wouldstick with the guy at Zangs. A theory Marrone apparently agrees with that has failed miserably.

 

As always, the reality is somewhere in the middle.

 

You cannot put any old big guy at guard, otherwise you end up with Colin Brown. It's true that less athletic tackles can be kicked inside to guard, but guard isn't a place that you can simply hide a bad OT. There are different techniques and different priorities between the two positions. At OT, a guy needs to have at least a solid-if-unspectacular base of footwork, and arm length is very important. He also has the benefit of playing in space, which allows him to establish an initial set in pass protection that distances him from an oncoming defender; a guard doesn't have that luxury. Also, OTs tend to be able to get away with sloppier pad level if they use their arm length and strength to their advantage (because they are typically blocking smaller defenders).

 

Inside at guard, things happen a lot faster, and there's less space to put between yourself and a defender in pass protection. Also, pad level is absolutely crucial, as you're typically facing larger DTs with lower centers of gravity.

 

As to the idea of how high to draft guards, there's a bevy of examples from around the league that show that very, very good guards are often found in the 3rd and 4th rounds. Sure, there are guys that are drafted higher, and some of them are very good (i.e. Iupati, Zeitler), but just as many of them are relative busts (Cooper, Warmack). My opinion is that spending a 1st or 2nd round pick on a guard is unnecessary; I'd instead focus on 3rd and 4th round picks, where you can find guys like Larry Warford, Jahri Evans, Gabe Jackson, and about half the other quality starting guards in the league.

[NoSaint]

 

 

As always, the reality is somewhere in the middle.

 

You cannot put any old big guy at guard, otherwise you end up with Colin Brown. It's true that less athletic tackles can be kicked inside to guard, but guard isn't a place that you can simply hide a bad OT. There are different techniques and different priorities between the two positions. At OT, a guy needs to have at least a solid-if-unspectacular base of footwork, and arm length is very important. He also has the benefit of playing in space, which allows him to establish an initial set in pass protection that distances him from an oncoming defender; a guard doesn't have that luxury. Also, OTs tend to be able to get away with sloppier pad level if they use their arm length and strength to their advantage (because they are typically blocking smaller defenders).

 

Inside at guard, things happen a lot faster, and there's less space to put between yourself and a defender in pass protection. Also, pad level is absolutely crucial, as you're typically facing larger DTs with lower centers of gravity.

 

As to the idea of how high to draft guards, there's a bevy of examples from around the league that show that very, very good guards are often found in the 3rd and 4th rounds. Sure, there are guys that are drafted higher, and some of them are very good (i.e. Iupati, Zeitler), but just as many of them are relative busts (Cooper, Warmack). My opinion is that spending a 1st or 2nd round pick on a guard is unnecessary; I'd instead focus on 3rd and 4th round picks, where you can find guys like Larry Warford, Jahri Evans, Gabe Jackson, and about half the other quality starting guards in the league.

 

quality post.

[thewildrabbit]

+ 1 BINGO. Doesn't matter *where* you find a guard, if you simply can't evaluate talent.

 

It's been posted before, how some of the Bills O-linemen "grade out" as being the worst in the NFL? Last year we had a couple guys, one I can't remember his name, was the worst. Commentators were even agreeing he wasn't really blocking, just trying to hang onto the other guy? How can they keep finding these absolute non-players at this position?

So true.

 

Plus, that is a great question, and I keep asking it myself over and over hoping someone with some insight into the team might respond. Even some known insiders can't seem to get a handle on why this team is so bad at evaluating O line talent, and so good at evaluating just about every other position.

 

Just because some teams draft an OG early and he fails doesn't mean it was the wrong idea to draft that position that early. It simply means they didn't do a very good job of evaluating that particular player. No team is perfect in their draft process every year. Just look at the Bills #2 pick this year. It doesn't mean you shouldn't draft one that early, it just means they made the wrong choice.

 

In regards to finding OG's in the later rounds. If you look at the draft history of this team you would be very hard pressed to find any position drafted after the 3rd round to have found long term success, and have become a decent starter. About the only ones that come to my mind are Stevie Johnson in the 7th, Kyle Williams in the 5th. So basically finding quality talent for this team past the third round is almost nonexistent.

 

I'm so sick of these scrubs at OG. I sure hope the Bills figure out this issue asap.

 

 

 

BTW, READ THIS: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000423227/article/how-joel-bitonio-helps-to-symbolize-the-browns-rise

[CSBill]

Its hard to imagine how the Bills could have whiffed so badly with their 2nd and 5th picks (7th doesn't count, everyone knew he was a 1 or 2 talent, that was a no-gamble pick—if it works, great, in not, no big deal).

 

I suspect there is more of an issue of coaching philosophy here than talent (but, a bad coaching philosophy has led to bad talent).

 

What is the one thing that all Bills line players have in common? Answer: They are all big, huge men.

 

It seems, we have drafted and signed players who are big first, athletic second. Obviously, if you can get both, you win. But I suspect we are just too slow and un-atheltic to compete against the more nimble, quicker d-linemen of the NFL today. And that won't change with the current crop. I'm sure the hope was we could be a road-grading team, but it is also apparent we are not strong/powerful enough (physics lesson here: power comes from the combination of strength and quickness/athleticism) to do that either.

 

I really think the Marrone philosophy of "bigger is better" needs to be challenged and changed.

Edited November 8, 2014 by CSBill

[greenmohawk]

Our 5th rd pick, Cyril Richardson.…"two-time

All-American offensive lineman and the only player to be

a two-time Big 12 Offensive Lineman of the Year…" Play him at LG, Urbik at RG. That's it.

[thebandit27]

Our 5th rd pick, Cyril Richardson.…"two-time

All-American offensive lineman and the only player to be

a two-time Big 12 Offensive Lineman of the Year…" Play him at LG, Urbik at RG. That's it.

 

Richardson could eventually be a very good LG; at the moment he's a liability in pass protection.

 

He's got to lose about 15 lbs and really slow down and learn the guard position--he was an OT up until his junior year, and he plays like it in pass pro.

 

His run blocking was actually quite good for stretches. Get this kid an entire offseason of NFL strength and conditioning, and give him the chance to develop a feel for playing inside and we probably have something.

[JohnC]

Richardson could eventually be a very good LG; at the moment he's a liability in pass protection.

 

He's got to lose about 15 lbs and really slow down and learn the guard position--he was an OT up until his junior year, and he plays like it in pass pro.

 

His run blocking was actually quite good for stretches. Get this kid an entire offseason of NFL strength and conditioning, and give him the chance to develop a feel for playing inside and we probably have something.

 

Why was Chad Rinehart let go last year? He was a modestly priced player. He was certainly not an elite player but he was a competent player. He got a lot of playing time with San Diego. He gets dispatched and Colin Brown was kept. Brown was arguably the worst offensive lineman in the league. It's baffling!

[FluffHead]

 

Why was Chad Rinehart let go last year? He was a modestly priced player. He was certainly not an elite player but he was a competent player. He got a lot of playing time with San Diego. He gets dispatched and Colin Brown was kept. Brown was arguably the worst offensive lineman in the league. It's baffling!

 

I believe you mean Chas Rheingold and you're underestimating him. Calling Chas "competent" and "not elite" is an offense that should be punishable by repeated ball tapping. Chas is the best thing to happen to offensive lines since professional wrestling. Chas is like what shoeless joe Jackson would have been if he had shoes.

Edited November 8, 2014 by FluffHead

[Rockinon]

Its hard to imagine how the Bills could have whiffed so badly with their 2nd and 5th picks (7th doesn't count, everyone knew he was a 1 or 2 talent, that was a no-gamble pick—if it works, great, in not, no big deal).

 

I suspect there is more of an issue of coaching philosophy here than talent (but, a bad coaching philosophy has led to bad talent).

 

What is the one thing that all Bills line players have in common? Answer: They are all big, huge men.

 

It seems, we have drafted and signed players who are big first, athletic second. Obviously, if you can get both, you win. But I suspect we are just too slow and un-atheltic to compete against the more nimble, quicker d-linemen of the NFL today. And that won't change with the current crop. I'm sure the hope was we could be a road-grading team, but it is also apparent we are not strong/powerful enough (physics lesson here: power comes from the combination of strength and quickness/athleticism) to do that either.

 

I really think the Marrone philosophy of "bigger is better" needs to be challenged and changed.

I think this has a lot to do with it. Sometimes coaches will make the players do the hard things over and over in an effort to make them better. Could the coach mix things up and do things that make the line more tricky....yes. Marone, I think is very old school. He doesn't want his linemen taking the easy path. He wants them to learn to be a strong unit instead of just tricking defenses like Gailey did. This does not happen over night. It takes a lot of hard work and a lot of repetition.

 

We all have seen some bad play early this season and now we are very critical of every bad play. The OL is young and we are quick to believe that these are just scrubs at their respective positions, but that may not be the case. When we see the offense run up the middle over and over, we are seeing a coaching staff adamant about establishing the run even if it is the difficult thing to do. We are also very critical of the play calling in this respect. One thing I do know. When Kyle Orton does drop back to pass, he is very efficient and we are all of a sudden converting some big 3rd downs. When they do pass on 1st or 2nd down(believe it or not, we actually have done this, even if it does not seem like it) and have been very successful. This team is running to set up the pass and it's working. The coaching staff is taking a lot of criticism. The OL is taking a lot of criticism, but I think they are sticking to their plan because they are seeing some results.

 

Over the last couple of games, I have seen some improved line play. Many of us here are simply not seeing it. The line is still making it's mistakes and that is very much the focus. What we should be looking for is improvement. These guys have been picking up stunts. They have been opening holes on run plays. There really has been noticeable improvement, but many simply are not seeing it.

 

This game coming up is going to be a good test for this young OL. Kansas can really get after the passer, but they are also caught being overly aggressive a lot. Their run defense is terrible because they are bringing the heat on every play and often ignore gap responsibility. I believe the Kansas defense can be exploited. The Bills OL has been working hard and this could be a big game for them to have a coming out party. I think the coaches could be right for sticking to their plan. Sometimes having a plan does not mean the results are immediate. Maybe it's not about a bigger is better philosophy. Maybe it's about working toward being a dominant group.

[Matt in KC]

Why was Chad Rinehart let go last year? He was a modestly priced player. He was certainly not an elite player but he was a competent player. He got a lot of playing time with San Diego. He gets dispatched and Colin Brown was kept. Brown was arguably the worst offensive lineman in the league. It's baffling!

Chad followed Joe D'Alesandris, our old O-Line coach to San Diego. He didn't want to stay in Buffalo. I thought he requested to be be allowed to follow him or something. I forget the contract/FA situation, but have heard that a couple times.

 

I really miss having athletic guards that could pull and actually get out in front of screen plays.