prissythecat Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 Does anyone remember the TSW infatuation with Kirk Cousins? Report: Eagles had soured on Foles before his injury We ve had infatuations with a number of QBs who looked good briefly on stacked teams : Kolb , Flynn, etc.
26CornerBlitz Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 We ve had infatuations with a number of QBs who looked good briefly on stacked teams : Kolb , Flynn, etc. Here's another one: Bucs bench Mike Glennon, return to Josh McCown
BigBuff423 Posted November 5, 2014 Author Posted November 5, 2014 No way he's worthy of anywhere near that kind of money because he's an unproven commodity. If you have watched the Eagles at all this year, you know that Foles has been bad. Sanchez has a fair chance to remain the starting QB after Foles recovers from his injury. And you may be right...or you may be wrong. I'll say this, if this same question was posited last year, how many would have jumped at it? And, given the fact that Orton is making $5.5 million this year, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that if he makes it to another team, he gets an average of $10-12 per year...and, let's think of it this way: assuming Foles is a QB that can produce positive gains consistently, stabilize the position, and lead the Offense, given the drought of QBs the BILLS have had over the last 15 years, isn't he worth nearly the same amount of money the BILLS paid Fitz? With the BILLS contract, Fitz averaged $9.8 million with $24 million guaranteed....Foles who threw just 2 INTs last year, something that infuriated most of us when Fitz would throw INTs constantly...and yes, it's a new year and Defenses have adapted to Chip Kelly's Offense, and I'm not saying that Foles will be this football god in QB form, but it's hard to argue against a guy who has been much better than all of the QBs the BILLS have had since Flutie...and Orton has done really well, all things considered, but the season is not over yet, and to be honest, I think I'd rather pay an extra $4.5 million above Orton's price for next year, to secure a guy that will be 25 for the duration of next regular season and has played well, to great, for most of his young NFL career....is Foles perfect? Well, if he was, the Eagles wouldn't "possibly" be moving on from him...but considering he's started for just a year and a half, has shown development and played well for a playoff team, that seems like a no-brainer to me... As BILLS fans, we have to adjust our perspective. Sometimes I think we expect too much, essentially perfection and we have to acknowledge another Andrew Luck is not happening anytime soon, and I for one do not want to wait 15 years for a good Offense...this year, has been up and down and I've really enjoyed watching Orton play well, mostly, but he is not the solution to the QB question for the next 6-10 years, and Foles is probably as good a prospect as you're going to get at this point, given his resume and yet youth...JMO
26CornerBlitz Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 And you may be right...or you may be wrong. I'll say this, if this same question was posited last year, how many would have jumped at it? And, given the fact that Orton is making $5.5 million this year, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that if he makes it to another team, he gets an average of $10-12 per year...and, let's think of it this way: assuming Foles is a QB that can produce positive gains consistently, stabilize the position, and lead the Offense, given the drought of QBs the BILLS have had over the last 15 years, isn't he worth nearly the same amount of money the BILLS paid Fitz? With the BILLS contract, Fitz averaged $9.8 million with $24 million guaranteed....Foles who threw just 2 INTs last year, something that infuriated most of us when Fitz would throw INTs constantly...and yes, it's a new year and Defenses have adapted to Chip Kelly's Offense, and I'm not saying that Foles will be this football god in QB form, but it's hard to argue against a guy who has been much better than all of the QBs the BILLS have had since Flutie...and Orton has done really well, all things considered, but the season is not over yet, and to be honest, I think I'd rather pay an extra $4.5 million above Orton's price for next year, to secure a guy that will be 25 for the duration of next regular season and has played well, to great, for most of his young NFL career....is Foles perfect? Well, if he was, the Eagles wouldn't "possibly" be moving on from him...but considering he's started for just a year and a half, has shown development and played well for a playoff team, that seems like a no-brainer to me... As BILLS fans, we have to adjust our perspective. Sometimes I think we expect too much, essentially perfection and we have to acknowledge another Andrew Luck is not happening anytime soon, and I for one do not want to wait 15 years for a good Offense...this year, has been up and down and I've really enjoyed watching Orton play well, mostly, but he is not the solution to the QB question for the next 6-10 years, and Foles is probably as good a prospect as you're going to get at this point, given his resume and yet youth...JMO I have watched him play many times this season and the primary problem with Foles has been poor decision making. Your assumption is a huge leap and it's exactly why the Eagles aren't sold on him. I'd rather roll with Orton moving into 2015.
BigBuff423 Posted November 5, 2014 Author Posted November 5, 2014 I have watched him play many times this season and the primary problem with Foles has been poor decision making. Your assumption is a huge leap and it's exactly why the Eagles aren't sold on him. I'd rather roll with Orton moving into 2015. Fair enough, we shall agree to disagree....but I think Foles is a significant improvement over what the BILLS have right now, despite Orton playing well...I think Foles is a guy who could lead the right team to a lot of wins....would he do well in Jax right now? Nope...Cleveland? Probably not....but I think Foles has the potential to be something similar to Flacco, and given the recent Super Bowl win for the Ravens, I'd take that every year for the next 6 to 10 years and not look back...
26CornerBlitz Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 Fair enough, we shall agree to disagree....but I think Foles is a significant improvement over what the BILLS have right now, despite Orton playing well...I think Foles is a guy who could lead the right team to a lot of wins....would he do well in Jax right now? Nope...Cleveland? Probably not....but I think Foles has the potential to be something similar to Flacco, and given the recent Super Bowl win for the Ravens, I'd take that every year for the next 6 to 10 years and not look back... From your POV the Eagles have no idea what a good QB they have on their hands in Foles. Guess you're smarter than Chip Kelly.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 Fair enough, we shall agree to disagree....but I think Foles is a significant improvement over what the BILLS have right now, despite Orton playing well...I think Foles is a guy who could lead the right team to a lot of wins....would he do well in Jax right now? Nope...Cleveland? Probably not....but I think Foles has the potential to be something similar to Flacco, and given the recent Super Bowl win for the Ravens, I'd take that every year for the next 6 to 10 years and not look back... Isn't what Orton is giving you right now similar to Flacco (if not better)? The sample size is still small but he has traditionally been a middle of the road QB (like Flacco) and is only 31. Is it impossible to think that he can be just as effective at 36? You may not have Orton for 10 more years but you could easily have him 4 more.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 Fair enough, we shall agree to disagree....but I think Foles is a significant improvement over what the BILLS have right now, despite Orton playing well...I think Foles is a guy who could lead the right team to a lot of wins....would he do well in Jax right now? Nope...Cleveland? Probably not....but I think Foles has the potential to be something similar to Flacco, and given the recent Super Bowl win for the Ravens, I'd take that every year for the next 6 to 10 years and not look back... Please give your reasons, after watching Foles play, for why you think he will excel away from the Eagles who soured on him even after one ridiculous season. What do you base this on? Great decision making? Ability to perform under a rush? Ability to gun the ball into tight windows? Ability to read defenses quickly under pressure? Precision accuracy? Strong arm? Durability? Leadership qualities? Mental and physical toughness?
MClem06 Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 Orton for Prez 2016. If he can show us he can lead this team to the playoffs or even sniff it at 9-7 (or even 10-6 the way the AFC is playing out) i say we extend him and pay that man his money. EJ is a serviceable backup right now and about a 30% chance he can develop into a winning NFL QB. I agree with posters about Chip Kelly utilizing talent better than Hackett and if we do anything in 2 years we replace the OC for an experienced coach who knows how to mix it up better in the run game.
Captain Hindsight Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 Please give your reasons, after watching Foles play, for why you think he will excel away from the Eagles who soured on him even after one ridiculous season. What do you base this on? Great decision making? Ability to perform under a rush? Ability to gun the ball into tight windows? Ability to read defenses quickly under pressure? Precision accuracy? Strong arm? Durability? Leadership qualities? Mental and physical toughness? I thought he sucked that last year with Reid. Last season was amazing because he only threw two picks but he wasn't Brady, he was going to regress. Its why they signed Sanchez instead of rolling with Barkley
BigBuff423 Posted November 5, 2014 Author Posted November 5, 2014 From your POV the Eagles have no idea what a good QB they have on their hands in Foles. Guess you're smarter than Chip Kelly. First Sir, I have appreciated your feedback and responded maturely and appropriately, ^^^this was neither of those things and its unnecessary. The fact that someone disagrees with your opinion, in a forum designed exactly for that, shouldn't put you on the defensive so much that you can't simply "agree to disagree", but instead revert to sarcasm and pointed barbs that are unwarranted. However, to answer your question, I didn't hear Chip Kelly say he didn't want Foles, I read the article that said the GM has "soured" on him, semantics I realize, but Chip Kelly's evaluation of Foles as the QB did not enter the discussion until you brought it up. As for being "smarter", I never met Chip Kelly so I can't answer that question honestly. What I will say, is that a number of GMs feel the need to move on if a player has not lived up to their expectations and performed according to their demand. And, given that Foles threw just 2, I repeat 2, INTs to 27 TDs last year, is it possible that this particular GM has other reasons for wanting to move on, assuming that's true?? As I stated above, I'm not claiming he's perfect or Andrew Luck, in fact in my former post I intimated that we, as fans, need to appreciate the significant talent that Luck, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, et al. truly are and bring some reasonable expectations to bear...however, if "reasonableness" is too much to ask from you, then Sir we have met the end of the discussion and realize that courtesy and polite debate is too much to ask of you. Isn't what Orton is giving you right now similar to Flacco (if not better)? The sample size is still small but he has traditionally been a middle of the road QB (like Flacco) and is only 31. Is it impossible to think that he can be just as effective at 36? You may not have Orton for 10 more years but you could easily have him 4 more. Orton is playing very well, and conceded that point, but Foles at 25, with a greater promise seems to be worth more in return on potential investment, IMO
rsherman12 Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) Wow another knee-jerk reaction. In other news, Tom Brady is on the decline, Peyton Manning has gotten old and has lost his touch, and Big Ben is washed up. Edited November 5, 2014 by rsherman12
A Dog Named Kelso Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 I don't think that teams are necessarily souring on guys quicker; they are just privied to so much more information that they can make decisions sooner. Between the evolution of analytics and technology the coaches and personnel people are given much more information on a player. They are giving these guys as long as they need to make a determination. It was 14 games in EJ's case, maybe 25 in Foles case, Ponder 25, Gabbert 25, 35 for Locker, 20 in Geno's, etc... Whatever the numbers are it really doesn't matter (I just made up the numbers above). As soon as they believe that a certain guy isn't the answer (at least yet) they are pulling the plug. There is no more "working through your issues." Job security is certainly a factor there but for the most part they have been right. The information is dictating that. I remember hearing a interview with John Clayton where he said a Starting QB gets about 23 starts to determine if he might be the guy. I think this it equates to about a year and a half. Basically giving the coach and GM enough time to remedy the situation before thing get too far along. i could see the Sanchez situation being a problem, basically play well enough to get you to AFC Championship games and and an overall winning so pulling him is difficult.
26CornerBlitz Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 First Sir, I have appreciated your feedback and responded maturely and appropriately, ^^^this was neither of those things and its unnecessary. The fact that someone disagrees with your opinion, in a forum designed exactly for that, shouldn't put you on the defensive so much that you can't simply "agree to disagree", but instead revert to sarcasm and pointed barbs that are unwarranted. However, to answer your question, I didn't hear Chip Kelly say he didn't want Foles, I read the article that said the GM has "soured" on him, semantics I realize, but Chip Kelly's evaluation of Foles as the QB did not enter the discussion until you brought it up. As for being "smarter", I never met Chip Kelly so I can't answer that question honestly. What I will say, is that a number of GMs feel the need to move on if a player has not lived up to their expectations and performed according to their demand. And, given that Foles threw just 2, I repeat 2, INTs to 27 TDs last year, is it possible that this particular GM has other reasons for wanting to move on, assuming that's true?? As I stated above, I'm not claiming he's perfect or Andrew Luck, in fact in my former post I intimated that we, as fans, need to appreciate the significant talent that Luck, Rodgers, Brady, Manning, et al. truly are and bring some reasonable expectations to bear...however, if "reasonableness" is too much to ask from you, then Sir we have met the end of the discussion and realize that courtesy and polite debate is too much to ask of you. Orton is playing very well, and conceded that point, but Foles at 25, with a greater promise seems to be worth more in return on potential investment, IMO You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you can't take a little teasing jab from someone you don't even know on a football forum I'm not sure what to say.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 (edited) Orton is playing very well, and conceded that point, but Foles at 25, with a greater promise seems to be worth more in return on potential investment, IMO I like Foles and agree that he could be a longer term answer. I am just not sure what it is on the football field that Foles does better than Orton (besides for mobility)? The Bills have searched for that sort of production for a long time. While people think that it is a little bit misleading he has typically been a middle of the road guy. He is playing better now than ever but his sample size is large enough to expect Flacco-like production. Edited November 5, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
BillsVet Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 Or maybe this report, with Foles probably wanting a new contract, is all about the Eagles trying to obtain some sort of leverage in negotiations? Foles is entering the final year of his rookie contract next year. But if this is reality, then yeah I blame the few rookies who are relatively successful out of the gate for amping up expectations for your signal callers.
BigBuff423 Posted November 5, 2014 Author Posted November 5, 2014 You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you can't take a little teasing jab from someone you don't even know on a football forum I'm not sure what to say. I suppose it really is the fact that I don't know you, and given it's in written form, it's sometimes difficult to decipher when someone is being ball-breaking sarcastic and when someone is being condescending and dismissive...my apologies for presuming the latter.
BigBuff423 Posted November 5, 2014 Author Posted November 5, 2014 Please give your reasons, after watching Foles play, for why you think he will excel away from the Eagles who soured on him even after one ridiculous season. What do you base this on? Great decision making? Ability to perform under a rush? Ability to gun the ball into tight windows? Ability to read defenses quickly under pressure? Precision accuracy? Strong arm? Durability? Leadership qualities? Mental and physical toughness? For me, it would be a combination of some of those things above: but Foles' 2014 QBR while middle of the pack, is ahead of Russell Wilson, Matthew Stafford, and Matt Ryan, with his 2013 QBR being 4th in the league behind Peyton, Rivers, and Brees but ahead of Rodgers, Luck, Ryan, and Brady; just posted 411 yards against the Arizona Cardinals. The following is a quote from NFL.com for the Combine regarding Foles, note, they advocate a West Coast style that doesn't require him to throw deep, yet Foles has many deep balls in Kelly's system: Analysis Strengths: Foles has a strong arm that gets him through various other hitches in his game. There are times when Foles throws the deep, cross-field out-route off his back foot -- while facing pressure -- accurately and with ease. Though he is not the most athletic quarterback, he avoids pressure in the pocket and has a good sense of how and when to extend a play to his advantage. As a deep passer he has strength but can struggle with accuracy at times. His accuracy is evident in his short-to-intermediate throws, where he can put it right on a receiver or give him the proper lead. He would be more valuable in a West Coast scheme that would allow him to make quick decisions and not be forced to unleash deep throws on a consistent basis. He is an excellent game manager, moving the ball in bunches up the field. He is extremely poised in the pocket and rarely lets a heavy pass rush rattle his throws. Couple that with his on field production, and to me there is a young Flacco that still needs some development but could become a pure pocket passer in Buffalo's style of Offense that helps them gain real production from the QB position.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 For me, it would be a combination of some of those things above: but Foles' 2014 QBR while middle of the pack, is ahead of Russell Wilson, Matthew Stafford, and Matt Ryan, with his 2013 QBR being 4th in the league behind Peyton, Rivers, and Brees but ahead of Rodgers, Luck, Ryan, and Brady; just posted 411 yards against the Arizona Cardinals. The following is a quote from NFL.com for the Combine regarding Foles, note, they advocate a West Coast style that doesn't require him to throw deep, yet Foles has many deep balls in Kelly's system: Analysis Strengths: Foles has a strong arm that gets him through various other hitches in his game. There are times when Foles throws the deep, cross-field out-route off his back foot -- while facing pressure -- accurately and with ease. Though he is not the most athletic quarterback, he avoids pressure in the pocket and has a good sense of how and when to extend a play to his advantage. As a deep passer he has strength but can struggle with accuracy at times. His accuracy is evident in his short-to-intermediate throws, where he can put it right on a receiver or give him the proper lead. He would be more valuable in a West Coast scheme that would allow him to make quick decisions and not be forced to unleash deep throws on a consistent basis. He is an excellent game manager, moving the ball in bunches up the field. He is extremely poised in the pocket and rarely lets a heavy pass rush rattle his throws. Couple that with his on field production, and to me there is a young Flacco that still needs some development but could become a pure pocket passer in Buffalo's style of Offense that helps them gain real production from the QB position. I meant watching him in NFL games on the Eagles. You know, for the seasons GMs may sour on guys. Every time I see him he doesn't impress me that much. But I haven't seen him a ton.
Nanker Posted November 5, 2014 Posted November 5, 2014 It's just crazy how short of a leash some guys get. We can thank Luck and Wilson for that... they both had some immediate successes, which is NOT the norm, and now, unless you put up top 5 numbers right away, consistently, you suck. Why don't QBs get time to develop anymore? Among others. New coaches barely get three years to be successful. I kinda agree. NFL is mimicking current society: zero attention span; zero patience. WYDFML: What have you done for me lately... Does anyone remember the TSW infatuation with Kirk Cousins? Report: Eagles had soured on Foles before his injury And Sanchize, and Geno, and Nassib, and Vick, and Kapernick, etc. Oh, and Skeleton
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