Doug Whaley joined L.A. Bills Backers to watch games this morning

[papazoid]

try to run into Kim next.

[BigBuff423]

That's fantastic!! And all really good information / insight...and I've liked Doug Whaley since he was promoted and have really liked him since he started making the decisions, it makes my opinion of him even stronger to know that he's a well-balanced, down-to-earth type of guy and a decent and humble man in person...that's great! More importantly, it's tremendous to see his thinking and why the BILLS do some of the things they do...also, the point about the Steelers and Big Ben...worth taking note from his perspective. Either way, thank you for sharing the experience...good stuff.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

it's encouraging to see he values TE's that high.....

 

i'm very pro a double TE formation on offense.

 

currently none of our TE's can block and only one can catch.

gragg's blocking has improved quite a bit this year. Listening to Orton and Lee Smith interviewed on Murph's show last week, it sounds like they plan to get him a lot more involved.

[PromoTheRobot]

 

 

Frankly, where is there a requirement to have "evidence" to post here? The post I was responding to wasn't asking for "evidence". I was giving my opinion, which is what we all do here. Opinions can be hopes or guesses, or they can have some logic and evidence behind them.

 

What's the basis for my opinion? When something has been done before, it is typically regarded as demonstrating could be done again. That's the basis of STARS interviewing.

Let me spell it out a bit more for you:

1) Buddy found Pears on the NFL scrap heap in a previous year

2) Buddy found Urbik on the NFL scrap heap

3) Good players can be found on the NFL scrap heap

4) Turning Pears into a guard was an experiment, and by now it's a failed experiment which is risking our season

5) The OP asked what more could be done, I would like to have seen the NFL scrap heap sifted for guards. I think there is likely to be someone out there who is at least as good, simply because of how bad Pears is.

 

That is my OPINION, and the above is the BASIS for my opinion, which is neither a hope nor a guess.

 

The only mitigating factor I see is until Orton took over, it was probably challenging to sift apart the effect of a QB taking too long to make decisions from the effect of poor OL play.

Of course much that is posted here is opinion. My beef is when opinion becomes fact. If you think there are better linemen on waivers that might be true but likely not. Also I've read just as many opinions that Urbik and Pears are garbage. Whaley tried to fix the line but it didn't work. So all the Bills can do now is either carry on and hope for improvement or scour the waiver wire and FXFL, which I'm sure they are doing.

Edited November 3, 2014 by PromoTheRobot

[C.Biscuit97]

Great stuff Kelly and sounds like a great time. I've been thrilled with Marrone this year because I think this team is absolutely loaded. But I know that Whaley is a very good GM and it'd be stupid not to bring him back.

 

IT's like the exact opposite of the Sabres were bought by TP. The Sabres had a really good coach and shaky GM. Whaley will only get better with time plus I can see him being a great recruiter for FAs.

[thewildrabbit]

Well he did sign a free agent guard who promptly injured his back, and he drafted three O-linemen, two of which aren't ready to play. Was there more he could have done? Signed Incognito, a guy who said he hated playing in Buffalo the last time he was here?

Not like I haven't addressed this issue about Williams about 100 times already, and even as far back as right after he was signed by the team. As most know the O line is a passion of mine, and i follow every move on the subject fairly closely.

 

Chris Williams had to be one of the absolute worst players obtained in free agency by Doug Whaley by far, as was Greg Legursky the previous year. Both players graded as the very worst players on their respective teams, Rams-Steelers, and not just the worst players on their team. They both graded as two of the very worst players in the NFL. The thing is Williams graded at St Louis with a (-21.8), and even Legursky never graded that poorly.

 

Under Buddy Nix who signed FA RT Cornell Green to a 3 mill per deal, as one of his first acquisitions in 2010 free agency, and he was benched and cut off the team by week 6 of that year. Buddy Nix then scrambled, and searched the waiver wire and was able to find suitable band-aid players for the line in RT Pears & RG Urbik.

 

Then when Whaley took over in 2013 his replacement of LG Andy Levitre was Colin Brown, and was another player who was benched and cut by week 6 of last year. Colin Brown graded as the worst player in the NFL and his grade was (-30.1)

Browns backup at OG in David Snow came into the game for one series when Urbik went out with an injury, and immediately allowed a sack, and numerous hits-pressures. He was let go along with Brown, and the guy signed to be the backup center in Legursky was now the starting LG. We know that Legursky graded poorly after he was signed by the Bills, and then went on to solidify that poor grade by being the worst player on that line in 2013.

 

Whaley doesn't go dumpster diving for any other area of the team, and I'm desperately trying to understand the concept of forcing rookie QB's behind a line with such bad players on it. If not having a veteran QB on the roster, or not having a QB coach for three rookie QB's was a "my bad"!. I'd have to think signing such scrubs for the O line, and ruining one, and possibly ruining two seasons has to be a much worse then just "my bad". Yea, i think the OG position is going to continue to haunt this team the rest of the year.

 

Of course much that is posted here is opinion. My beef is when opinion becomes fact. If you think there are better linemen on waivers that might be true but likely not. Also I've read just as many opinions that Urbik and Pears are garbage. Whaley tried to fix the line but it didn't work. So all the Bills can do now is either carry on and hope for improvement or scour the waiver wire and FXFL, which I'm sure they are doing.

Whaley had a several ways to bring in players for the O line in free agency, the draft, and undrafted free agents. My beef is he is able to find excellent players for every other area of the team, and tries to scrape the bottom of other teams garbage cans for the O line. I just wanted to understand the thinking behind their process.

 

But of course you feel the need to jump up and defend the GM, as he had no other alternatives to do other then what he did.

 

http://www.cbssports...s/free-agents/g

Edited November 3, 2014 by FeartheLosing

[Fan in Chicago]

 

Under Buddy Nix who signed FA RT Cornell Green, as one of his first acquisitions in 2010 free agency, and he was benched and cut off the team by week 6 of that year. Colin Brown graded as the worst player in the NFL and his grade was (-30.1)

 

 

I allowed myself a little immature snicker when I saw that. Especially when you realize it is correct in more ways than one.

[PromoTheRobot]

Not like I haven't addressed this issue about Williams about 100 times already, and even as far back as right after he was signed by the team. As most know the O line is a passion of mine, and i follow every move on the subject fairly closely.

 

Chris Williams had to be one of the absolute worst players obtained in free agency by Doug Whaley by far, as was Greg Legursky the previous year. Both players graded as the very worst players on their respective teams, Rams-Steelers, and not just the worst players on their team. They both graded as two of the very worst players in the NFL. The thing is Williams graded at St Louis with a (-21.8), and even Legursky never graded that poorly.

 

Under Buddy Nix who signed FA RT Cornell Green to a 3 mill per deal, as one of his first acquisitions in 2010 free agency, and he was benched and cut off the team by week 6 of that year. Buddy Nix then scrambled, and searched the waiver wire and was able to find suitable band-aid players for the line in RT Pears & RG Urbik.

 

Then when Whaley took over in 2013 his replacement of LG Andy Levitre was Colin Brown, and was another player who was benched and cut by week 6 of last year. Colin Brown graded as the worst player in the NFL and his grade was (-30.1)

Browns backup at OG in David Snow came into the game for one series when Urbik went out with an injury, and immediately allowed a sack, and numerous hits-pressures. He was let go along with Brown, and the guy signed to be the backup center in Legursky was now the starting LG. We know that Legursky graded poorly after he was signed by the Bills, and then went on to solidify that poor grade by being the worst player on that line in 2013.

 

Whaley doesn't go dumpster diving for any other area of the team, and I'm desperately trying to understand the concept of forcing rookie QB's behind a line with such bad players on it. If not having a veteran QB on the roster, or not having a QB coach for three rookie QB's was a "my bad"!. I'd have to think signing such scrubs for the O line, and ruining one, and possibly ruining two seasons has to be a much worse then just "my bad". Yea, i think the OG position is going to continue to haunt this team the rest of the year.

 

Whaley had a several ways to bring in players for the O line in free agency, the draft, and undrafted free agents. My beef is he is able to find excellent players for every other area of the team, and tries to scrape the bottom of other teams garbage cans for the O line. I just wanted to understand the thinking behind their process.

 

But of course you feel the need to jump up and defend the GM, as he had no other alternatives to do other then what he did.

 

http://www.cbssports...s/free-agents/g

My desire is less to defend the GM than to point out that our opinions are not facts.

[NoSaint]

 

But of course you feel the need to jump up and defend the GM, as he had no other alternatives to do other then what he did.

 

http://www.cbssports...s/free-agents/g

 

im not going to derail the thread, but if PTR wants to see the lists - they are certainly out there. and 2013 had some good options too (likely the better year to address it, though i think we couldve done better this year too)

[GunnerBill]

I don't doubt we could have done better - Williams was a strange one but he actually played ok in the two games he managed before his back packed in. The line's best performances were those first two games.

[Coach Tuesday]

im not going to derail the thread, but if PTR wants to see the lists - they are certainly out there. and 2013 had some good options too (likely the better year to address it, though i think we couldve done better this year too)

 

Per Rotoworld:

2014 FA Offensive Guards

 

1. Geoff Schwartz (Signed four-year, $16.8M deal with NYG)

2. Travelle Wharton

3. Chad Rinehart (Re-signed two-year, $6M deal with SD)

4. Willie Colon (Re-signed one-year, $2M deal with NYJ)

5. Jon Asamoah (Signed five-year, $22.5M deal with ATL)

6. Zane Beadles (Signed five-year, $30M deal with JAX)

7. Brian Waters

8. Uche Nwaneri

9. Davin Joseph

10. Shelley Smith (Signed two-year, $5.5M deal with MIA)

11. Richie Incognito

12. Daryn Colledge

13. Mike Johnson (Re-signed one-year, $675K deal with ATL)

14. Shawn Lauvao (Signed four-year, $17M deal with WAS)

15. Wade Smith

16. Charlie Johnson (Re-signed two-year, $2.5M deal with MIN)

17. Mike Pollak (Re-signed three-year, $5M deal with CIN)

18. Harvey Dahl

19. John Jerry (Signed one-year, $770K deal with NYG)

20. Jamon Meredith (Re-signed two-year, $3M deal with TB)

21. Chris Williams (Signed four-year, $13.4M deal with BUF)

22. Mike Brisiel

23. Garrett Reynolds

24. Leroy Harris

25. Kevin Boothe (Signed two-year, $2.63M deal with OAK)

26. Gabe Carimi (Signed one-year, $850K deal with ATL)

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just seems odd to me that a NFL GM spends a football Sunday sitting in a bar.

 

If I understood the OP, Whaley's brother typically watches the games with them on Sunday. Guy has a little time off in the bye week, seems normal he would hang with his bro?

[stevewin]

Great stuff KtD, thanks! Probably like most people can't help thinking how I'd deal with that situation to get to ask conversationally about things while not crossing the line and being a dick probing too much

 

Like other people have mentioned, curious if the OL or his view on Hackett in general this year came up at all

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Of course much that is posted here is opinion. My beef is when opinion becomes fact. If you think there are better linemen on waivers that might be true but likely not. Also I've read just as many opinions that Urbik and Pears are garbage. Whaley tried to fix the line but it didn't work. So all the Bills can do now is either carry on and hope for improvement or scour the waiver wire and FXFL, which I'm sure they are doing.

 

C'mon Promo. You said "Well he did sign a free agent guard who promptly injured his back, and he drafted three O-linemen, two of which aren't ready to play. Was there more he could have done? Signed Incognito, a guy who said he hated playing in Buffalo the last time he was here?".

 

You know very well there are a long list of FA guards. It's all over the internet. It may be a "hope" and "guess" that one of them might be better than Pears, a servicable RT, but it's equally a "hope" and "guess" on your part that none of them are. Williams and Legursky, as others have pointed out, were way down the list in grades. Yes, there is more Whaley could have done - bring in some of the FA and try to claim some waivers for an e v a l. Yes, they are probably looking - as you acknowledge-but they could be bringing in and evaluating some guys here. It's highly disingenuous of you to cast "sign Incognito" as the only other option.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Per Rotoworld:

2014 FA Offensive Guards

 

 

as its not a guard thread, we should probably leave it here. its been rehashed in plenty of williams and legursky ones (that PTR was around for too)

[thewildrabbit]

My desire is less to defend the GM than to point out that our opinions are not facts.

I'm just trying to understand the teams thought process, as both Nix and Whaley have had better options for OG since 2010. While at least both men felt the need to spend a #2 draft pick on the OT positions. It still doesn't explain the reasoning behind the OG position. No other position on the team gets this type of reckless disregard to the quality of player obtained.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

My desire is less to defend the GM than to point out that our opinions are not facts.

 

I call shenanigans, Promo. Your OP was "Well he did sign a free agent guard who promptly injured his back, and he drafted three O-linemen, two of which aren't ready to play. Was there more he could have done? Signed Incognito, a guy who said he hated playing in Buffalo the last time he was here?"

 

If anything, you seem to be the one trying to cast an opinion as fact -implying that signing Incognito was the only option the Bills had for a FA guard after signing Williams. That is definitely NOT a fact.

 

When a post starts out "I dunno" and includes the words "just might" (as mine did), I think it's already pretty clear the person posting is not trying to cast their opinion as a fact, so thank you for your services, but they appear to be unneeded in this instance.

 

On the other hand, when your rejoinder is "those are hopes and guesses, not evidence" - after a post where you imply "signing Incognito" was the only other thing Whaley could have done - it kind of looks like a knee-jerk reaction to any critique of the Bills FO, and this concern for "opinions as facts" is revisionist history after you're called on a disingenuous response.

 

C'mon Promo, you can be better than this. At least acknowledge it's not about refuting "opinions as facts", that much seems clear.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Hopeful

[thebandit27]

Per Rotoworld:

 

2014 FA Offensive Guards

 

1. Geoff Schwartz (Signed four-year, $16.8M deal with NYG)

2. Travelle Wharton

3. Chad Rinehart (Re-signed two-year, $6M deal with SD)

4. Willie Colon (Re-signed one-year, $2M deal with NYJ)

5. Jon Asamoah (Signed five-year, $22.5M deal with ATL)

6. Zane Beadles (Signed five-year, $30M deal with JAX)

7. Brian Waters

8. Uche Nwaneri

9. Davin Joseph

10. Shelley Smith (Signed two-year, $5.5M deal with MIA)

11. Richie Incognito

12. Daryn Colledge

13. Mike Johnson (Re-signed one-year, $675K deal with ATL)

14. Shawn Lauvao (Signed four-year, $17M deal with WAS)

15. Wade Smith

16. Charlie Johnson (Re-signed two-year, $2.5M deal with MIN)

17. Mike Pollak (Re-signed three-year, $5M deal with CIN)

18. Harvey Dahl

19. John Jerry (Signed one-year, $770K deal with NYG)

20. Jamon Meredith (Re-signed two-year, $3M deal with TB)

21. Chris Williams (Signed four-year, $13.4M deal with BUF)

22. Mike Brisiel

23. Garrett Reynolds

24. Leroy Harris

25. Kevin Boothe (Signed two-year, $2.63M deal with OAK)

26. Gabe Carimi (Signed one-year, $850K deal with ATL)

 

Which of the above is playing well right now?

[Kelly the Dog]

Fwiw, my opinion is that Marrone holds a lot more weight on selections of offense linemen then any other position, and for obvious reasons. I guarantee that he and Whaley spent hours and hours watching film on the free-agents and that Chris Williams was as much a Marrone pick as a Whaley pick. But Whaley is the one responsible for the roster.

 

Also, when he said "our bad" when talking about not having a QB coach I believe he was basically covering for Marrone, who would be the one making that decision. The coach picks staffs, not the GM. He didn't say my bad. And he likely wouldn't say Marrone didn't want it. So he was likely taking blame when it wasn't really his call.

 

I didn't ask him about the Tuel and Thad issue, or back to TJax, and personally that was my biggest problem with him, until just before the season when he got Orton, and we know how that turned out.

[NoSaint]

 

 

Which of the above is playing well right now?

 

isnt schwartz playing well? i havent watched a ton of the giants but i know PFF had them 3rd with no "duds" the last line ranking i saw... they also mentioned beadles as doing alright, but maybe not as impactful as hoped (but not bad), and i also noticed that Asomougha was ranked 11th in pass blocking in the lions vs falcons preview i just pulled up. 2013 also had A LOT of free agent guards with starting experience.

 

Fwiw, my opinion is that Marrone holds a lot more weight on selections of offense linemen then any other position, and for obvious reasons. I guarantee that he and Whaley spent hours and hours watching film on the free-agents and that Chris Williams was as much a Marrone pick as a Whaley pick. But Whaley is the one responsible for the roster.

 

Also, when he said "our bad" when talking about not having a QB coach I believe he was basically covering for Marrone, who would be the one making that decision. The coach picks staffs, not the GM. He didn't say my bad. And he likely wouldn't say Marrone didn't want it. So he was likely taking blame when it wasn't really his call.

 

I didn't ask him about the Tuel and Thad issue, or back to TJax, and personally that was my biggest problem with him, until just before the season when he got Orton, and we know how that turned out.

 

i think those are all reasonable guesses

Edited November 3, 2014 by NoSaint