Doug Whaley joined L.A. Bills Backers to watch games this morning

[billykaykay]

> they liked Marrone because he fit every one of their criterion

 

From reading your description, Doug Whaley sounds like a good guy. I like the fact he was open and candid, unpretentious, and that he took time out of his busy schedule to visit with the LA Bills Backers. I imagine that if I got to know Doug, I'd come away with a positive opinion of him as a human being.

 

However, there are two things you've written which reinforced my concerns about his ability to be a good general manager. The first is his endorsement of Marrone. A head coach should be very creative and innovative. Bill Belichick and Bill Walsh were two of the best head coaches ever, in large part because they were smarter and more creative than their peers. What you've written leads me to believe that Whaley didn't mention that he was looking for an exceptional level of intelligence or creativity on the part of his next head coaching hire. Marrone/Hackett certainly didn't display those traits during their time together at Syracuse. Marrone may have fit all the criteria they were looking for, but didn't fit all the criteria for which they should have been looking!

 

An equally serious concern is the fact Whaley is still high on E.J. Manuel. The two most important factors he should be looking at in a quarterback are throwing accuracy and rapid information processing ability. Manuel displayed neither trait in college. He hasn't displayed those traits in the NFL. Just because a guy has good physical tools and interviews well, doesn't mean you should make him your quarterback of the future!

 

On a personal level, I'd hate to see a likable guy get fired. But as a Bills fan, I want what's best for the franchise. If he uses the wrong process to pick head coaches, quarterbacks, and (apparently) second round offensive tackles, he's probably not going to outperform the other GMs around the league. The Bills are extremely unlikely to bring home a Lombardi Trophy until Whaley is replaced.

Regarding Belichek & Walsh, BB was an under 500% coach in his 4 years at Cleveland. It wasn't until Brady came along that BB became a genius

The same could be said for Walsh. He had 2 of the best all time QBs.

They are both good coaches but it was their QBs that made them "geniuses".

[Kelly the Dog]

 

 

Who trades down to get their franchise QB?

 

But didn't Russ say that 2014 was Whaley's first draft?

The fact that they knew no one was going to draft him earlier, and they didn't take him earlier like you said, says they didn't think he was a sure thing right away as a franchise QB. That was obvious. They said he was a project. No way they thought of him as a franchise QB but as a guy who could be a franchise QB.

 

There wasn't anyone anywhere who thought he was a sure fire franchise QB. Personally, I stated here numerous times before the draft that he was my choice for our number one, not because he was all that good but none of those guys were immediate starters and EJs ceiling was higher.

 

Frankly, I don't believe hardly anything Russ says and I love the guy and think he's great at his job. And I don't think for a second that Whaley was not 100% on board with the EJ pick, and I think he made those picks, not Nix. So he is responsible for EJ.

[thebandit27]

They picked the right QB out of that class. I said at the time if I was taking a guy I'd take EJ (even when he was being ranked as the 5th or 6th best QB in that class) but everyone knew it wasn't a strong class and it was a bit of a punt. The mistake we made was getting ourselves into that position. I'm not sure I'd have wanted to be "forcing" a QB pick from the 2014 stock either mind you.

 

Agreed....I just don't put that on Whaley (Nix was responsible for putting the team in that spot).

 

Who trades down to get their franchise QB? But didn't Russ say that 2014 was Whaley's first draft?

 

2014 was the first draft over which Whaley held complete authority, yes. He was very involved in 2013 though.

 

And as noted, they got the guy they wanted at 16...are you claiming you'd feel better about EJ if they hadn't traded down and gotten Kiko?

[Captain Hindsight]

The fact that they knew no one was going to draft him earlier, and they didn't take him earlier like you said, says they didn't think he was a sure thing right away as a franchise QB. That was obvious. They said he was a project. No way they thought of him as a franchise QB but as a guy who could be a franchise QB.

 

There wasn't anyone anywhere who thought he was a sure fire franchise QB. Personally, I stated here numerous times before the draft that he was my choice for our number one, not because he was all that good but none of those guys were immediate starters and EJs ceiling was higher.

 

This pretty much. The Bills needed someone they could try to develop. Nobody in that class was a sure thing. I'm not even sure any of them will ever be a regular starter.

 

The Bills took a chance on the biggest, strongest, highest character guy in the draft and got Kiko along with him. They couldn't have played it any better IMO

[BillsVet]

In 2008 the Ravens traded back from 8 to 26 with the jags before moving up to 18 to select Super Bowl Champion Joe Flacco.

 

One example of a successful QB someone traded down for still doesn't illustrate that it's a trend. The trend is, teams identify their guy and don't wait to take him.

 

2014 was the first draft over which Whaley held complete authority, yes. He was very involved in 2013 though.

 

And as noted, they got the guy they wanted at 16...are you claiming you'd feel better about EJ if they hadn't traded down and gotten Kiko?

 

No one's arguing that hitting on 2nd round picks obtained in trades isn't a good thing. But hitting on that pick is not a sufficient consolation for missing on the first round pick.

 

I know deflecting away from the first round pick has become a common narrative here as people see EJ isn't going to cut it in the pros. But if you prioritize the position, as you noted Buddy didn't do, then you're not backed into a corner having to take a raw rookie. No team makes good decisions when they're desperate, which Buffalo was in the 2013 draft for a QB.

Edited November 5, 2014 by BillsVet

[Captain Hindsight]

One example of a successful QB someone traded down for still doesn't illustrate that it's a trend. The trend is, teams identify their guy and don't wait to take him.

 

True. I just thought of that example

[thebandit27]

No one's arguing that hitting on 2nd round picks obtained in trades isn't a good thing. But hitting on that pick is not a sufficient consolation for missing on the first round pick.

 

I know deflecting away from the first round pick has become a common narrative here as people see EJ isn't going to cut it in the pros. But if you prioritize the position, as you noted Buddy didn't do, then you're not backed into a corner having to take a raw rookie. No team makes good decisions when they're desperate, which Buffalo was in the 2013 draft for a QB.

 

That's a gigantic shift in the original argument, which was that they were indeed trying to prioritize the position in the 2013 draft. You can't rail on Nix for not doing that, and then criticize Whaley for doing it in 2013 via picking EJ. They needed a QB, they didn't have one, so they drafted the guy they liked the best...what, exactly, is wrong with doing that? It's not as though you can even fault them for picking who they picked, as it appears all 3 QBs drafted in the first 3 rounds that year are no longer starting.

 

It appears that you're actually criticizing Nix, not Whaley.

 

Fault Whaley for not bringing in a better backup option to EJ last year, but that's as far as it goes when laying the blame for the QB situation at his feet.

[Coach Tuesday]

Flacco is an interesting comparison. His career was inches away from doom. The year they won the SB, they were almost out of playoff contention mid-season, and there was a lot of chatter about needing to move on from Flacco because he was one dimensional, not a leader, not fiery enough, not decisive and fast enough with his reads, etc. Then *boom*, just like that, they get hot and go on a crazy run that ends up with a Superbowl victory. The result was that they had no choice but to pay Flacco like an elite QB, when the reality is he is not even in Big Ben's class as a QB, and certainly nowhere near the Rodgers-Brees-Brady-Manning level. He is a guy who will win you a few games but more often, he'll do enough not to lose the game. I don't see why EJ can't become that guy with time. But it does show you that having coaching continuity, a great defense, a highly-focused and competent scouting and GM department, and, yes, LUCK, can make or break a QB's legacy.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Coach Tuesday

[thebandit27]

Flacco is an interesting comparison. His career was inches away from doom. The year they won the SB, they were almost out of playoff contention mid-season, and there was a lot of chatter about needing to move on from Flacco because he was one dimensional, not a leader, not fiery enough, not decisive and fast enough with his reads, etc. Then *boom*, just like that, they get hot and go on a crazy run that ends up with a Superbowl victory. The result was that they had no choice but to pay Flacco like an elite QB, when the reality is he is not even in Big Ben's class as a QB, and certainly nowhere near the Rodgers-Brees-Brady-Manning level. He is a guy who will win you a few games but more often, he'll do enough not to lose the game. I don't see why EJ can't become that guy with time. But it does show you that having coaching continuity, a great defense, a highly-focused and competent scouting and GM department, and, yes, LUCK, can make or break a QB's legacy.

 

Luck, and proper coaching...if you remember (and you likely do), Flacco's resurgence in the Superbowl year coincided with the firing of Cam Cameron and the promotion of JIm Caldwell to OC.

Edited November 5, 2014 by thebandit27

[John from Riverside]

I look at it like this.......

 

Would anyone have a problem (now...in hindsight) have a problem with taking Kiko Alonzo at the 16th pick?

 

- Strong case for rookie of the year

- Extremely good player

 

Because if the answer to that is no then we really shouldnt be bitching about the EJ Manuel pick

[JohnC]

That's a gigantic shift in the original argument, which was that they were indeed trying to prioritize the position in the 2013 draft. You can't rail on Nix for not doing that, and then criticize Whaley for doing it in 2013 via picking EJ. They needed a QB, they didn't have one, so they drafted the guy they liked the best...what, exactly, is wrong with doing that? It's not as though you can even fault them for picking who they picked, as it appears all 3 QBs drafted in the first 3 rounds that year are no longer starting.

 

It appears that you're actually criticizing Nix, not Whaley.

 

Fault Whaley for not bringing in a better backup option to EJ last year, but that's as far as it goes when laying the blame for the QB situation at his feet.

 

There is an assumption made in many posts (including yours) that there was a requirement to take a qb in that draft year. That is not the case. The Bills could have still traded down, acquired Kiko, and select a player at another position of need such as an offensive lineman or TE.

 

When an organization drafts a qb in the first round,whether high or low, it is investing in a player who they believe will eventually be their franchise qb. If none of the prospects in that particular qb starved draft don't measure up to being a high end qb prospect then the best approach is to draft another higher rated player at another position. No one can reasonably state that talent at other positions weren't also needed.

 

Instead of reaching in EJ's draft year you either wait for lower round to draft a developmental qb or you simply don't draft a qb because you are desperate for one. Wouldn't it have been better to wait until this year's draft and pick for example Bridgewater or Carr who are better long term prospects? I have watched Bridgwater in a few games this year and it is very obvious that he is simply better than the qb we reached for two years ago.

 

Acting/drafting out of desperation is a recipe for failure. Reaching for a need is rarely better than selecting the better talent, regardless of position. Whaley was enamored with EJ and rated him higher than most other organizations. The bottom line is that he was a developmental prospect who was drafted higher than he should have been. I want EJ to succeed and I'm rooting for this high quality person. But when I watched Bridgewater it was apparent to me that he was a much more developed and a betterr prospect than Manuel.

Edited November 5, 2014 by JohnC

[Bills Realist]

 

Yep. Turned our pick into EJ and Kiko Alonzo. It was not only intelligent, it was brilliant. Even if EJ is a back-up. Thanks for playing.

 

And where is EJ now after a predictably horrible first season, and all that "hard work" in the off season? You're welcome. Game, set, match...

[thewildrabbit]

Firstly, the insight provided in the OP is precisely why this place is the only place to be if you want the best in all things Buffalo Bills. Thank you KTD. I'm also grateful that it was you that had an afternoon to chat with Doug and not some of the other posters around here.

 

Second, I find it interesting insight into the psyche of the Bills' fan. With all the good (and positive) stuff presented, the primary point of conversation has been the one glaring negative on the team; and perhaps more importantly, the one thing that was not chit chatted about with Whaley.

 

And C, I'll add to the second point with my opinion... Our line was pretty good and by no means the weakest unit on the team just a short time ago. What has changed? Coaching and the offensive philosophy that comes with that coaching. Maybe Marrone's mantra that O line chemistry isn't as important as having your 5 best players on the field is bunk? Maybe your line play suffers when the defense knows exactly what play is coming and even which gap the runner will hit? Maybe NFL game plans require more than just lining up and beating the guy in front of you?

 

Lastly, I especially found the comment regarding EJ being too nice and trying to please everyone, as interesting. It seems the more I read about EJ after his benching, the more it sounds like he needs to work on the mental aspects of his game far more than the physical aspects. Which, if true, seems like there's every reasonable expectation that the FO won't look to draft another rookie any time soon.

 

P.S. I also found the thoughts ln Spikes/Williams interesting. It seems Whaley would like Spikes to stay but if he's got a young capable replacement (Brown), he's not going to overy pay. Similar to having Williams ready to go and not doing everything possible to keep Byrd.

Coaching has changed, and talent has changed over the years. The O line has been a failing point for the team as far back as 2000, IMO. There is, and has been something seriously wrong with the Buffalo Bills scouts concerning O linemen since Mike D Williams #4 overall in 2002. Colin Brown a starter, Cornell Green a starter, Chris Williams a starter, Erik Pears at RG, really?

 

The thing is under Chan Gailey Fitz would get the ball out so quickly it would almost negate the pass rush, and with running Spiller- Jackson from that 4-5 WR spread offense it helped the run game immensely. At that time the O line was ranked as one of the best lines in the NFL. But alas, they were severely flawed, and that was hidden by the coaching, QB, and schemes.

 

 

The scrubs this team has tried to band-aid the line with over the years is downright ridiculous. A 7th round pick in Demetress Bell to replace all pro LT Jason Peters, yea sure. Mansfield Wrotto, Langston Walker, Duke Preston, Derrick Dockery, Colin Brown, Cornell green, Melvin Fowler, Mike Gandy, Chris Villarrial, Terrance Pennington. Benny Anderson, Trey Teague, Ross Tucker, Sam Adams, Mike Pucillo, Marques Sullivan.

 

Those were actual starters, and not even counting the endless O line players drafted after the 4th round that never saw the field. All I can do is hope that after this season the new adviser recommends some better quality players for that line then Pears.

[Bills Realist]

 

 

There is an assumption made in many posts (including yours) that there was a requirement to take a qb in that draft year. That is not the case. The Bills could have still traded down, acquired Kiko, and select another player at another position of need such as an offensive lineman or TE.

 

When an organization drafts a qb in the first round,whether high or low, it is investing in a player who they believe will eventually be their franchise qb. If none of the prospects in that particular qb starved draft don't measure up to being a high end qb prospect then the best approach is to draft another higher rated player at another position. No one can reasonably state that talent at other positions weren't also needed.

 

Instead of reaching in EJ's draft year you either wait for lower round to draft a developmental qb or you simply don't draft a qb because you are desperate for one. Wouldn't it have been better to wait until this year's draft and pick for example Bridgewater or Carr who are better long term prospects? I have watched Bridgwater in a few games this year and it is very obvious that he is simply better than the qb we reached for two years ago.

 

Acting/drafting out of desperation is a recipe for failure. Reaching for a need is rarely better than selecting the better talent, regardless of position. Whaley was enamored with EJ and rated him higher than most other organizations. The bottom line is that he was a developmental prospect who was drafted higher than he should have been. I want EJ to succeed and I'm rooting for this high quality person. But when I watched Bridgewater it was apparent to me that he was a much more developed and a betterr prospect than Manuel.

 

Exactly! There was no need to reach for a QB of EJ's caliber. And then continue to turn a blind eye to all of his short comings. EJ is not, and never will be a franchise QB.

[BillsVet]

That's a gigantic shift in the original argument, which was that they were indeed trying to prioritize the position in the 2013 draft. You can't rail on Nix for not doing that, and then criticize Whaley for doing it in 2013 via picking EJ. They needed a QB, they didn't have one, so they drafted the guy they liked the best...what, exactly, is wrong with doing that? It's not as though you can even fault them for picking who they picked, as it appears all 3 QBs drafted in the first 3 rounds that year are no longer starting.

 

It appears that you're actually criticizing Nix, not Whaley.

 

Fault Whaley for not bringing in a better backup option to EJ last year, but that's as far as it goes when laying the blame for the QB situation at his feet.

 

The waters have been muddied about which GM was running the 2013 draft. What we know is that the then-current guy and heir were in the room. I would think they knew Nix would be eased out after that draft, so was the decision to take Manuel mutual or one-sided? I suspect that Whaley made the call, seeing as how he'd be running the team with that QB starting for him despite not being a de-facto GM. No way would the outgoing guy get to make a decision that would so influence the future GM's job.

 

And I do fault Nix, who left Whaley with little in terms of talent after 3 years. His approach, to go with the previous regime's backup QB to start in 2011-12 is what set the stage for them to have to take a QB early in 2013 and hope he could play right away. Not surprisingly it didn't work.

 

The bottom line is you don't go 4-12, 6-10, 6-10, and 6-10 from 2010-2013 unless your front office stinks. Which is what's happened. It's not as though it's 4 straight years of bad luck, but rather a case of too many bad decisions. One of which was having to take a QB in 2013.

[Kelly the Dog]

And where is EJ now after a predictably horrible first season, and all that "hard work" in the off season? You're welcome. Game, set, match...

A back-up with a lot of talent. Right where he should be at this stage in his career. And we also have a pro bowl caliber linebacker with a limitless future. That's a fabulous pick at #8.

[thebandit27]

There is an assumption made in many posts (including yours) that there was a requirement to take a qb in that draft year. That is not the case. The Bills could have still traded down, acquired Kiko, and select a player at another position of need such as an offensive lineman or TE.

 

When an organization drafts a qb in the first round,whether high or low, it is investing in a player who they believe will eventually be their franchise qb. If none of the prospects in that particular qb starved draft don't measure up to being a high end qb prospect then the best approach is to draft another higher rated player at another position. No one can reasonably state that talent at other positions weren't also needed.

 

Instead of reaching in EJ's draft year you either wait for lower round to draft a developmental qb or you simply don't draft a qb because you are desperate for one. Wouldn't it have been better to wait until this year's draft and pick for example Bridgewater or Carr who are better long term prospects? I have watched Bridgwater in a few games this year and it is very obvious that he is simply better than the qb we reached for two years ago.

 

Acting/drafting out of desperation is a recipe for failure. Reaching for a need is rarely better than selecting the better talent, regardless of position. Whaley was enamored with EJ and rated him higher than most other organizations. The bottom line is that he was a developmental prospect who was drafted higher than he should have been. I want EJ to succeed and I'm rooting for this high quality person. But when I watched Bridgewater it was apparent to me that he was a much more developed and a betterr prospect than Manuel.

 

Yes, that is absolutely the assumption, and it's absolutely the correct one. If you don't have a QB (and the Bills didn't), then you draft one. If you have your pick of the litter, then you take the one you like the best. Does it have to be in the first round? No. Is it more advantageous to pick a guy when you have your choice of anyone coming out of the draft that year? Yes, no question about it.

 

How many times do we hear "if you don't have a franchise QB, keep drafting QBs until you have one"? This team hadn't drafted a QB high since 2007, and it was high time they did.

 

And where is EJ now after a predictably horrible first season, and all that "hard work" in the off season? You're welcome. Game, set, match...

 

His first season was not "horrible" by any metric that any human being can provide...in any way whatsoever. He had a very average and unspectacular rookie season...hyperbole does not strengthen arguments.

 

Also, your (inaccurate) point does nothing to refute the argument that the Bills didn't have a QB and needed to draft one.

 

The waters have been muddied about which GM was running the 2013 draft. What we know is that the then-current guy and heir were in the room. I would think they knew Nix would be eased out after that draft, so was the decision to take Manuel mutual or one-sided? I suspect that Whaley made the call, seeing as how he'd be running the team with that QB starting for him despite not being a de-facto GM. No way would the outgoing guy get to make a decision that would so influence the future GM's job.

 

And I do fault Nix, who left Whaley with little in terms of talent after 3 years. His approach, to go with the previous regime's backup QB to start in 2011-12 is what set the stage for them to have to take a QB early in 2013 and hope he could play right away. Not surprisingly it didn't work.

 

The bottom line is you don't go 4-12, 6-10, 6-10, and 6-10 from 2010-2013 unless your front office stinks. Which is what's happened. It's not as though it's 4 straight years of bad luck, but rather a case of too many bad decisions. One of which was having to take a QB in 2013.

 

Nobody said that it was bad luck or anything other than mismanagement of resources. My point was that you seem to be faulting Whaley for picking a QB after faulting Nix for not picking a QB, and that doesn't make sense.

 

As I understand it, Whaley absolutely had input on the EJ pick, and as I said, he's probably the best of what looks to be a very poor crop. This team needed to do something at the QB position, and in a year where they had their pick of anyone coming out, they chose to use it. It was the right move IMO, regardless of how it works out.

Edited November 5, 2014 by thebandit27

[John from Riverside]

And where is EJ now after a predictably horrible first season, and all that "hard work" in the off season? You're welcome. Game, set, match...

 

Except that he wasnt "particularly horrible"......you can parrot that all you want....doesnt make it true

[BillsVet]

Nobody said that it was bad luck or anything other than mismanagement of resources. My point was that you seem to be faulting Whaley for picking a QB after faulting Nix for not picking a QB, and that doesn't make sense.

 

As I understand it, Whaley absolutely had input on the EJ pick, and as I said, he's probably the best of what looks to be a very poor crop. This team needed to do something at the QB position, and in a year where they had their pick of anyone coming out, they chose to use it. It was the right move IMO, regardless of how it works out.

 

There's a clear cause and effect here. The departed GM created a situation which required his successor to take a QB. I fault Nix for prioritizing positions other than QB in 2011-12 and Whaley for thinking Manuel was the guy. In the latter point, I slightly understand the initiative but ultimately bad judgement: Whaley had few options. If they were that enamored of Manuel, why add a brittle Kevin Kolb when you knew the former wasn't ready to play? As others have pointed out, that strategy backfiring was a reasonable possibility. And lo and behold it did.

[Captain Hindsight]

I look at it like this.......

 

Would anyone have a problem (now...in hindsight) have a problem with taking Kiko Alonzo at the 16th pick?

 

- Strong case for rookie of the year

- Extremely good player

 

Because if the answer to that is no then we really shouldnt be bitching about the EJ Manuel pick

I mean, what would the value of picking alonzo earlier be? What would McShay say???