No Cease Fires Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Cool. Next time you are there ask Truly the bartender for Pete. Damn, we've met. Just didn't realize you were on here too. And now that I think about it, pretty sure I know who Whaley's brother is, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billykaykay Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Which of the above is playing well right now? I'll bet that some of those unsigned Gs had injuries. FtD... one of the most entertaining and informative posts in a while. Cool stuff. I think any GM would come across as knowledgeable. Good to know Whaley is also likeable and down-to-earth. Wonder how much you can infer from omissions. Whaley didn't praise Marrone much... Does that mean he's not enamored with his head coach? Also wonder if there was a little hubris involved in the Williams signing. Being that Marrone is an ex OL, maybe he thought he could salvage Williams. I think that Williams was a high draft pick. Perhaps they thought that they could coach up that perceived talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I'm sure he thinks that is the way it should be, too. But it's no different than it was before since Whaley took the job. Whaley had to report to one guy, the active owner. Russ. Now he reports to one guy, too. the active owner (and maybe two, with Kim). If anything, he will have less authority, because Pegula (or any owner) has the authority to order him to make changes, when Brandon was less likely to do that. To say the organizational structure is the same today under TPegs as it was under RB is like saying red apples are the same as red peppers because they're both red. You've conflated the situation into being the same when in fact it's not. Brandon less likely to make changes incumbent on his GM? If the organizational structure was so efficient, wouldn't the new owners have ensured it remained in place? Yet, they didn't wait for a consultant to tell them that a GM under Russ Brandon wasn't a solid move. Russ is still president, but he's not overseeing football, so someone advised them to take football operations away from him. That speaks volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 To say the organizational structure is the same today under TPegs as it was under RB is like saying red apples are the same as red peppers because they're both red. You've conflated the situation into being the same when in fact it's not. Brandon less likely to make changes incumbent on his GM? If the organizational structure was so efficient, wouldn't the new owners have ensured it remained in place? Yet, they didn't wait for a consultant to tell them that a GM under Russ Brandon wasn't a solid move. Russ is still president, but he's not overseeing football, so someone advised them to take football operations away from him. That speaks volumes. What? Russ was the acting owner since Whaley took over. Ralph was not involved. When a new owner comes in there is no reason for Russ to be acting owner. Whaley's job doesn't change. he reports to one guy, the owner. Only now it isn't the acting owner, it's the new owner. How hard is that? That's apples to apples. You still have this insistence on saying the organization before Pegula is exactly the same as it has been for 15 years when that is completely untrue. Whaley got a new job two years ago. Russ got a completely new job about four different times in those 15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I agree with most of that. But the disaster was that Kolb got hurt, EJ got hurt three times, then Thad got hurt, then Hackett had to prepare an undrafted RFA to play in a regular season game. That is what Whaley was referring to I think. That is not at all a 50-50 chance. The way you have it written, I took it much differently. With no QB coach, Hackett wasn't spending much time with the QB position as a whole not EJ in particular. Unless Whaley mentioned specifically EJ was alone for 6 weeks while injured (reg season), then to me that is every reason to suggest the deficiency here is more than just situational. Not EJ specific, but positionally. Even now it would make sense as to why Ortons demeanor is getting more production alone out of the position. I am no Hackett fan, and I was high on EJ. So there is some bias. Now I just want production out of the position however it may come. As I have agreed with other posters, Hackett I don't think is ready for the big leagues. Forget rookie QB's, not having a QB coach while you run an entire offense and staff is silly and destined not to work when your top 2 QB's are injury prone and young. We can talk about injuries all we want, and disasters, fact of the matter is the guy (Hackett/Marrone) didn't respect the most important position in all sports nearly enough. As a professional coach, yes the ideal scenario is to have athletes govern themselves. That is much different than coaching themselves. Somebody implied this was Marrones philosophy, which is fine. But the aspects of technicalities in any sport should fall on the coachig staff first and foremost. Teammates keep eachother in check socially and emotionally. Nights and weekends. If somebody is having an off day, not preparing well, or treating their body/sport with the respect it deserves, those are peer issues. Running proper routes should start with the staff, and only be helped by your collegue. That's how big boys do it. If it took The staff a season, 4 games, and Kyle Orton to get that done, then we have a serious issue. Somebody compared it to Schwartz, great, works for some coaches, Kyle Orton is your QB, not your coach. Nor is he Peyton Manning, basically his own OC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) The way you have it written, I took it much differently. With no QB coach, Hackett wasn't spending much time with the QB position as a whole not EJ in particular. Unless Whaley mentioned specifically EJ was alone for 6 weeks while injured (reg season), then to me that is every reason to suggest the deficiency here is more than just situational. Not EJ specific, but positionally. Even now it would make sense as to why Ortons demeanor is getting more production alone out of the position. I am no Hackett fan, and I was high on EJ. So there is some bias. Now I just want production out of the position however it may come. As I have agreed with other posters, Hackett I don't think is ready for the big leagues. Forget rookie QB's, not having a QB coach while you run an entire offense and staff is silly and destined not to work when your top 2 QB's are injury prone and young. We can talk about injuries all we want, and disasters, fact of the matter is the guy (Hackett/Marrone) didn't respect the most important position in all sports nearly enough. As a professional coach, yes the ideal scenario is to have athletes govern themselves. That is much different than coaching themselves. Somebody implied this was Marrones philosophy, which is fine. But the aspects of technicalities in any sport should fall on the coachig staff first and foremost. Teammates keep eachother in check socially and emotionally. Nights and weekends. If somebody is having an off day, not preparing well, or treating their body/sport with the respect it deserves, those are peer issues. Running proper routes should start with the staff, and only be helped by your collegue. That's how big boys do it. If it took The staff a season, 4 games, and Kyle Orton to get that done, then we have a serious issue. Somebody compared it to Schwartz, great, works for some coaches, Kyle Orton is your QB, not your coach. Nor is he Peyton Manning, basically his own OC. Hackett has said before that EJ is always with him, and standing right next to him, and going through everything. He does it now when he is injured. You can see him always there on the sidelines listening in, even when he was not playing. I think people are making a much bigger deal over me saying what Whaley said about being alone. Maybe I should have said it differently. 90% of the time throughout the practice and film room and weight room and quarterbacks room, etc, EJ would be there whenever Hackett was talking to the QBs, whether it was EJ himself or Thad or Orton. There is no doubt having another guy there last year would have helped. And it was a mistake from the get go. But it's being blown way out of proportion IMO. Plus only X number of guys in the whole league can do what Orton is doing, because he is that kind of personality, and has eight years and 75 starts and has had some success as a starter on a few different teams. Most QBs, even veterans, can't do that. They have no authority. Edited November 3, 2014 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just in Atlanta Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Thanks for sharing. Now for the really important question... Was he drinking Labatt's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Thanks for sharing. Now for the really important question... Was he drinking Labatt's? Actually, yes. He drank in moderation. But it was also 10 am - 1pm. He wisely turned down requests for more drinks and went off to do some family stuff. I can't over-emphasize the coolness in how he handled the situation, pretty much every way, and everyone there thought the same thing when talking about it afterwards. We were all, like, "Wow. That was really impressive." The first thing he asked everyone is how long have you been a Bills fan and how did it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 (edited) What? Russ was the acting owner since Whaley took over. Ralph was not involved. When a new owner comes in there is no reason for Russ to be acting owner. Whaley's job doesn't change. he reports to one guy, the owner. Only now it isn't the acting owner, it's the new owner. How hard is that? That's apples to apples. You still have this insistence on saying the organization before Pegula is exactly the same as it has been for 15 years when that is completely untrue. Whaley got a new job two years ago. Russ got a completely new job about four different times in those 15 years. Completely new job? He was made COO in 2006 of non-football ops. Two years later he added the GM title and in 2010 when Nix was hired, he became CEO. His most recent promotion was to team president in 2013. I'd say the last 3 positions placed him as overseeing football ops, either as GM or overseeing that individual with that title. The fact that the Pegula's removed Brandon from overseeing football ops tells me they know that relationship wasn't good for the team from an on-field perspective. One would think if RB was thought to be good at that function they'd delay that move until after the consultant made their report. But they didn't. Edited November 3, 2014 by BillsVet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Completely new job? He was made COO in 2006 of non-football ops. Two years later he added the GM title and in 2010 when Nix was hired, he became CEO. His most recent promotion was to team president in 2013. I'd say the last 3 positions placed him as overseeing football ops, either as GM or overseeing that individual with that title. The fact that the Pegula's removed Brandon from overseeing football ops tells me they know that relationship wasn't good for the team from an on-field perspective. One would think if RB was thought to be good at that function they'd delay that move until after the consultant made their report. But they didn't. I think Kelly's point is that Brandon had autonomy for the first time ever--prior to January 2013, the Littman's of the organization had say in coaching/personnel budgets and other matters; that ceased when Russ was promoted to President/CEO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 I think Kelly's point is that Brandon had autonomy for the first time ever--prior to January 2013, the Littman's of the organization had say in coaching/personnel budgets and other matters; that ceased when Russ was promoted to President/CEO. Thank you. i think it's rather obvious. At first he was just a marketing guy. Then he was involved in all aspects of the business side. Then he was defacto if not actual GM. Then he relinquished that GM role and was just in charge of the business side. Then he was defacto owner the last two years. Now he is back to running the business side. Those are all completely different jobs IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 Thank you. i think it's rather obvious. At first he was just a marketing guy. Then he was involved in all aspects of the business side. Then he was defacto if not actual GM. Then he relinquished that GM role and was just in charge of the business side. Then he was defacto owner the last two years. Now he is back to running the business side. Those are all completely different jobs IMO. Don't forget his other job over that time span: guest starring in the Ivan Reitman classic DRAFT DAY: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yungmack Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 K-Dog, thanks for an excellent post. You shame the pro reporters and pretty much most of us around here. Most info-packed report in years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 I know you get your kicks for slamming fans' opinions without offering your own analysis. But this organization is not being judged by how they perform relative to fans whims. They are judged relative to how good NFL programs are run. So while you can continue to troll out the Incognito straw man, the reality is that on the football field, the Bills OL play has regressed a ton, despite still having 4/5 of the line on the roster that looked sort of decent during Gailey's tenure. I know how you get your kicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 3, 2014 Author Share Posted November 3, 2014 Don't forget his other job over that time span: guest starring in the Ivan Reitman classic DRAFT DAY: A scene stealer for sure. Reminds me, as an actor, somewhat of an older Kiko Alonzo. Not quite the chops but you can sense the inner turmoil and subtext with every move he doesn't make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted November 3, 2014 Share Posted November 3, 2014 A scene stealer for sure. Reminds me, as an actor, somewhat of an older Kiko Alonzo. Not quite the chops but you can sense the inner turmoil and subtext with every move he doesn't make. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 I know how you get your kicks. Par for the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Par for the course. One of these years, we may get a post from him containing actual, substantive, football-related content, but I'm not holding my breath... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Was lucky enough to watch the early games in LA with Doug Whaley this morning where we watch the games every Sunday. It was great. Thanks to AKC and Matt for setting it up. He didn't really say all that much that was controversial. We got to spend a few hours with him though. Had some wings and some drinks at 10 am. Was there with his wife and brother who were terrific, too. First of all, what a great guy. Just as you would imagine. He just introduced himself to anyone who walked up to him as "Hi, I'm Doug." No pretension whatsoever. Really impressive guy. He didn't say anything I was really surprised by. The most interesting thing was he said Orton at practice is yelling at the receivers, and told them if they weren't trying and open in practice he wasn't throwing to them in the game. And they all smartened up quick. That was great. Which led him to say that EJ tries to please everyone and is too nice, and any leader in any business has to be a dick sometimes, and EJ isn't at that point yet. Other tidbits: Loves Robert Woods, couldn't stop talking about him. Thinks it will be hard to re-sign Spikes. Really wants to re-sign Hughes but has no idea how it will go. Agreed that if they look at it as paying the front seven instead of four, it can be rationalized. Loves Aaron Williams and that was the reason they didn't try harder to re-sign Byrd. Said Mike Williams trade thing really was all his agent but he's not happy he's not playing. He wouldn't bite when I challenged him about Williams, Watkins and Woods are better than Hogan. I couldn't read him on that. But we talked about him getting the four guys Watkins, Williams, Woods and Goodwin who all do different things well and it hasn't worked out that way. He also said that they didn't know they would be able to get Watkins when they got Williams so he went from being thought of as a #1 guy to kind of 2a. Loves Preston Brown. That's why they won't overpay for Spikes, who will probably want a good contract and to play three downs. Wants to upgrade TE but like everyone, knows they aren't a lot of good ones. He does not particularly like New England or any of Massachusetts. Ha. That was pretty funny. He loves living in Buffalo and said it's a known fact around the league that players hate coming to Buffalo and then hate leaving it. Definitely building the Bills after the Steeler teams that he grew up with. Then said they couldn't take the next step until they got Big Ben. He spends four to five days a week on the road scouting, he's visiting five different schools in five days this week. Talk about how college coaches will let him know when a player of theirs is trouble, without ever saying it. Mostly because they have to do the same thing with high school coaches about players they are recruiting. He doesn't like Jameis Winston as the face of a franchise at all. Loves Kiko obviously, who he says is healing fast. Said when they were looking for a coach, him and Buddy and Overdorf and Russ got together and came up with an idea of what kind of guy they wanted, before they started talking about any specific guy. And they started with didn't want a retread, wanted a young guy who could be there 20 years, wanted someone out of the box, wanted a tough guy, and they liked Marrone because he fit every one of their criterion. Which would also explain them wanting Chip Kelly who also fit all of them. Said the only time he was ever nervous at a game was visiting Oakland because he was scared walking through the parking lot. Ha. He wanted the Dolphins to lose but understood both sides of the argument. Great day and just a great guy. Perfect ambassador for the Bills. His brother watches the games with us on Sunday in LA. Nothing earth-shattering, and he was diplomatic as you'd expect when I asked him hard questions but he answered them well. Couldn't have been more impressed with him. > they liked Marrone because he fit every one of their criterion From reading your description, Doug Whaley sounds like a good guy. I like the fact he was open and candid, unpretentious, and that he took time out of his busy schedule to visit with the LA Bills Backers. I imagine that if I got to know Doug, I'd come away with a positive opinion of him as a human being. However, there are two things you've written which reinforced my concerns about his ability to be a good general manager. The first is his endorsement of Marrone. A head coach should be very creative and innovative. Bill Belichick and Bill Walsh were two of the best head coaches ever, in large part because they were smarter and more creative than their peers. What you've written leads me to believe that Whaley didn't mention that he was looking for an exceptional level of intelligence or creativity on the part of his next head coaching hire. Marrone/Hackett certainly didn't display those traits during their time together at Syracuse. Marrone may have fit all the criteria they were looking for, but didn't fit all the criteria for which they should have been looking! An equally serious concern is the fact Whaley is still high on E.J. Manuel. The two most important factors he should be looking at in a quarterback are throwing accuracy and rapid information processing ability. Manuel displayed neither trait in college. He hasn't displayed those traits in the NFL. Just because a guy has good physical tools and interviews well, doesn't mean you should make him your quarterback of the future! On a personal level, I'd hate to see a likable guy get fired. But as a Bills fan, I want what's best for the franchise. If he uses the wrong process to pick head coaches, quarterbacks, and (apparently) second round offensive tackles, he's probably not going to outperform the other GMs around the league. The Bills are extremely unlikely to bring home a Lombardi Trophy until Whaley is replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 (edited) But did they really learn from their (admitted) mistake? The very next offseason, they brought in Chris Williams to be the solution at LG. He had a history of back issues, and predictably is now shelved with back issues. They also failed to draft a QB and lucked out when Orton was sitting there a week or two before the season. These guys need to learn how to spread out their bets... I agree with you about the Chris Williams back issues. That's a Moeaki thing - the injury issues are known, you need a (pardon the phrase) back-up plan I believe the story line that says they were negotiating with Orton all along. I don't believe it was "oh, he's sitting there, let's sign him". (I think the price they were willing to pay may have gone up to meet what Orton was willing to sign for, as EJ's lack of readiness became more and more apparent.) I'm not sure I understand the "failed to draft a QB" comment. What would you have liked to see? Edited November 5, 2014 by Hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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