Hanoverbills Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Look Manuel has only played 14 games in the NFL. I'm not giving up of on him. I'm glad we have Orton, he been in the NFL for 10 years. So yes he is going to play better than someone who only has 14 starts. By the way, Tom Brady wasn't even a starter In college and had a HOF career. I'm not saying that Manuel is Tom Brady , but you can't judge a QB by only 14 games. hey there been a lot good QBs who didn't look good there first yr. and became good starters. Elli Manning took a couple years until he became good QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 There are a lot of times when he sets his feet and he just misfires for no reason. Those are the most baffling throws of all. His lofting the ball a lot of times also has nothing to do with footwork. His feet are set, he just lofts it because that is the way he plays. It is always to a guy who is wide open or when he is trying to drop it into an area. That happens a lot, too. When there is a strong rush, I agree with you, his footwork suffers greatly because he is panicking too quickly and losing his fundamentals way quicker and way more often than he should be. But that doesnt mean he has bad footwork. It means his fundamentals break down too often. Hackett has even described it a few times in these terms. That's a head thing not a feet thing. The tape doesn't lie. There's over a year of film on this kid not setting his feet and throwing off his back foot. When EJ was drafted Marrone and Hackett stated that his footwork needed to fixed. EJ spent much of his offseason working with a private QB coach correcting his footwork and mechanics. Yet you're going to tell me that his footwork isn't a problem despite it being openly stated by the HC, OC and EJ himself that it's something he needs to improve on? C'mon man. We're talking basic fundamentals here. Him throwing erratically or with a lack of velocity is not a head thing. It's a he doesn't set his feet and step into his throws thing. The only way I would buy into it being a head thing is if he were thinking too much about what he was doing that it caused things to break down even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Again, ORton completed 51% of his passes averaging 5.1 ypa his first 15 games. EJ has completed 58.6% of his passes at 6.43 ypa. Why can't he improve too? Do you want to wait 6-8 years for that improvement? Free agency and the nature of front office turnover have made that just completely infeasible. EJ may have some success at some point in his career but it won't be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) The tape doesn't lie. There's over a year of film on this kid not setting his feet and throwing off his back foot. When EJ was drafted Marrone and Hackett stated that his footwork needed to fixed. EJ spent much of his offseason working with a private QB coach correcting his footwork and mechanics. Yet you're going to tell me that his footwork isn't a problem despite it being openly stated by the HC, OC and EJ himself that it's something he needs to improve on? C'mon man. We're talking basic fundamentals here. Him throwing erratically or with a lack of velocity is not a head thing. It's a he doesn't set his feet and step into his throws thing. The only way I would buy into it being a head thing is if he were thinking too much about what he was doing that it caused things to break down even further. We're talking about two different things. They changed his dropback footwork because pretty much every college QB has to learn new 3-5-7 step dropbacks depending on how the coach wants him to do it. He also never played much fro under center, which is completely different footwork. I'm talking about his normal steps and stepping into a throw and how he uses and sets his feet. He has a solid throwing fundamental style. They also changed how he holds the ball when he is setting to throw. I really should stop, only because I think he is not throwing accurate, is throwing off his back foot way too much, is breaking down and not using his feet right which is causing errant throws just like you are. It's part a semantic issue and part a very small disagreement of how much is head and how much is feet. But we agree on 90% of it. Edited October 31, 2014 by Kelly the Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Seems to be a feet thing AND a head thing. I am hopeful they can be corrected given time and the proper coaching. I have no doubt he'll work his tail off to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) We're talking about two different things. They changed his dropback footwork because pretty much every college QB has to learn new 3-5-7 step dropbacks depending on how the coach wants him to do it. He also never played much fro under center, which is completely different footwork. I'm talking about his normal steps and stepping into a throw and how he uses and sets his feet. He has a solid throwing fundamental style. They also changed how he holds the ball when he is setting to throw. I really should stop, only because I think he is not throwing accurate, is throwing off his back foot way too much, is breaking down and not using his feet right which is causing errant throws just like you are. It's part a semantic issue and part a very small disagreement of how much is head and how much is feet. But we agree on 90% of it. Just so I inderstand where you're coming from. How do you think they have changed his drop steps? And i can agree about him being under center in college much. When he was under center it was typically in play action sets and not a traditional 3, 5 or 7 step drop so that much has needed to be coached up. Edited October 31, 2014 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Just so I inderstand where you're coming from. How do you think they have changed his drop steps? I can't answer that. I just don't know except for one way. For example, there was a criticism of him by pundits and fans and whomever from college that he couldn't read defenses because he only scanned one side of the field, and didn't look for his 2nd, 3rd or 4th progressions. But that didn't turn out to be true. Jimbo Fischer taught him to do that, and only wanted him to do that. He was taught to dump it off or run, rather than turn back to the other side of the field. Sooooo, when he dropped back to pass in college, his feet were often set to just scan half the field. The Bills wanted him to drop back so that he could look either left, center, or right, so they had to change his dropback footwork. It wasn't that it was flawed, it just was different than they wanted and limiting. I know that's one thing they did. I assume there are others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I can't answer that. I just don't know except for one way. For example, there was a criticism of him by pundits and fans and whomever from college that he couldn't read defenses because he only scanned one side of the field, and didn't look for his 2nd, 3rd or 4th progressions. But that didn't turn out to be true. Jimbo Fischer taught him to do that, and only wanted him to do that. He was taught to dump it off or run, rather than turn back to the other side of the field. Sooooo, when he dropped back to pass in college, his feet were often set to just scan half the field. The Bills wanted him to drop back so that he could look either left, center, or right, so they had to change his dropback footwork. It wasn't that it was flawed, it just was different than they wanted and limiting. I know that's one thing they did. I assume there are others. I don't mean to be difficult or rude but I find lot of what I just read here to be completely ridiculous. Instead of addressing specific points and making a long post that just leads to more back and forth banter I'm just going to say I respectfully disagree and move on. Let's just agree that EJ has plenty to work on and leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I don't mean to be difficult or rude but I find lot of what I just read here to be completely ridiculous. Instead of addressing specific points and making a long post that just leads to more back and forth banter I'm just going to say I respectfully disagree and move on. Let's just agree that EJ has plenty to work on and leave it at that. Well believe what you want. Both of those things were reported pretty clearly, about Fischer and half the field, and about Hackett changing his footwork on dropbacks. You can not believe them if you wish. But yes, let's agree that EJ has plenty to work on, and footwork ain't the only thing. For instance, before his first training camp... http://www.buffalonews.com/20130521/manuel_learning_as_he_goes.html Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator Nathaniel Hackett is focused on teaching EJ Manuel proper footwork as a big first step in getting the team’s prized rookie quarterback ready for the NFL. Manuel needs to match his steps in the pocket to the pass routes the receivers are running as he learns the Bills’ new offense. “Footwork is tied into everything,” Hackett said after the Bills’ spring practice Tuesday. “Everything is within your footwork. It’s a very big learning process. For us, we use our footwork, we use our progression, and we move up in the pocket.” The Bills’ offense, like many in the NFL, is rooted in West Coast offense principles. That means there are a lot of three- and five-step drop backs by the quarterback, who needs to get the ball out of his hands quickly and on rhythm to give the receiver a chance to run after the catch. The pass routes stretch the field horizontally as well as vertically. The quarterback goes through a progression across the field in identifying where to throw the ball, and his feet are moving in the pocket as he scans the field for an open man. “It’s all predicated on the pass concept, just pairing the footwork with the passing play,” Manuel said. At Florida State, Manuel had a lot of plays in which he had to read only half the field as he stood in the pocket or rolled out in the direction the play was going. It’s not that Manuel wasn’t taught fundamentals. He worked from under center a lot at Florida State and employed pro-style drop backs. Some college quarterbacks in spread offenses use mostly rocker-steps, not real drop backs, after they get a shotgun snap. The Bills don’t have to teach Manuel from scratch. But Manuel now has to adopt the rhythm and footwork Hackett wants as he scans the full field for receivers. “It’s been fun to watch him come along, especially when he was first here, he was kind of a drop back and stand there,” Hackett said. “Now there’s a little more rhythm to it. You see him stepping up, working up and making plays. Those are things he’s got to get used to, things we ask him to do here.” Hackett also has changed the way Manuel moves the ball as he’s dropping back. Manuel is putting his hands on the ball the same way he always has done, but Hackett wants his quarterback to be more comfortable. Instead of consciously holding the ball toward the left side of his chest as he’s dropping back, he’s now allowing the ball to rock back and forth a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Well believe what you want. Both of those things were reported pretty clearly, about Fischer and half the field, and about Hackett changing his footwork on dropbacks. You can not believe them if you wish. But yes, let's agree that EJ has plenty to work on, and footwork ain't the only thing. For instance, before his first training camp... http://www.buffalone...as_he_goes.html Just about every QB in college football only has half field reads. Most college offenses aren't designed to have their QBs scan opposite ends of the field looking for a target. That's just the way it is. From that article, the changing of his drops has more to do with his timing as opposed to the actual technique in his drops and crossover steps. Going back to my original point since it seems like things are getting further from what I was originally talking about. EJ's footwork is a problem still. It's not natural and not fluid. He is still having trouble transferring his weight and is throwing off his back foot. That's causing his passes to lack velocity and to be erratic. Just about everything you've posted in response is conjecture and hyperbole. I wasn't at FSU, I'm not in the Bills QB meeting room and I'm not in EJ's head so I can't speak about what he was taught in college, how he's coached in the pros and what he's thinking. If you can then that's great. But saying his poor footwork isn't tied into his throwing problems is just asinine. It's not all mental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Here we go with all the "can't teach accuracy" posts, but no one can explain why? As I posted earlier in the thread, why is this the only position in sports where accuracy can not be taught/learned? Yeah I mean everyone who has ever bowled a 300 game has been doing it since birth. And everyone that plays darts always could hit a bullseye. And oh my favorite... basketball players take 500 a day just to kill time. No sir you ARE wrong. Accuracy can not be taught!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 91 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Orton was forced to adjust to a system not built around his strengths while EJ was playing in system designed around his . Thats not entirely true. You are correct in theory. But the statement is flawed ONLY because was supposed to come in and be a game manager. We were supposed to have a running game. We were supposed to be run first. BUT we didnt field a running line. And we couldn't get Spiller OR Jackson to where they were supposed to be. So yes we said we built to ejs strengths but we actually have not fielded anything that makes this a true statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC2002 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Thats not entirely true. You are correct in theory. But the statement is flawed ONLY because was supposed to come in and be a game manager. We were supposed to have a running game. We were supposed to be run first. BUT we didnt field a running line. And we couldn't get Spiller OR Jackson to where they were supposed to be. So yes we said we built to ejs strengths but we actually have not fielded anything that makes this a true statement. ] With an entire offseason and training camp that statement is 100% true . What we saw being ran are things that EJ has shown that he was capable and good at running in minicamp on through training camp. Did we expect to run the ball better ? Yes but the play calls were based around things EJ were believed to be capable of doing . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prissythecat Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Look Manuel has only played 14 games in the NFL. I'm not giving up of on him. I'm glad we have Orton, he been in the NFL for 10 years. So yes he is going to play better than someone who only has 14 starts. By the way, Tom Brady wasn't even a starter In college and had a HOF career. I'm not saying that Manuel is Tom Brady , but you can't judge a QB by only 14 games. hey there been a lot good QBs who didn't look good there first yr. and became good starters. Elli Manning took a couple years until he became good QB. Should we look at bringing back JP ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Yeah I mean everyone who has ever bowled a 300 game has been doing it since birth. And everyone that plays darts always could hit a bullseye. And oh my favorite... basketball players take 500 a day just to kill time. No sir you ARE wrong. Accuracy can not be taught!!!! If you can't understand the difference between the sports you just mentioned and an NFL QB then you need to think harder: What do bowling, darts and basketball all have in common? A stationary target. I can sit here and practice shooting into my garbage can all day 500x's a day and get really good at it - to the point where I could probably close my eyes and still get it in b/c it all becomes muscle memory. It's a completely different animal the second someone starts moving the garbage can on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 @YardsPerPass: Question: P.Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, Big Ben, Brady, Orton. Answer: Who are the top 6 QB's in passer rating in the NFL #Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 If you can't understand the difference between the sports you just mentioned and an NFL QB then you need to think harder: What do bowling, darts and basketball all have in common? A stationary target. I can sit here and practice shooting into my garbage can all day 500x's a day and get really good at it - to the point where I could probably close my eyes and still get it in b/c it all becomes muscle memory. It's a completely different animal the second someone starts moving the garbage can on me. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Y/YounSt00.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 (edited) @YardsPerPass: Question: P.Manning, Rodgers, Rivers, Big Ben, Brady, Orton. Answer: Who are the top 6 QB's in passer rating in the NFL #Bills just to temper the orton enthusiasm total QBR says Orton is the 28th best QB. mostly because he doesn't help much with his legs as evidenced by his rushing yards and inability to escape sacks. Russell Wilson is an example of a QB who uses his legs for rushing yards and escaping sacks: his passer ranking is 25th best, his total QBR ranking is 13th best. anyone here would rather have Orton over Wilson ? Edited October 31, 2014 by papazoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 just to temper the orton enthusiasm total QBR says Orton is the 28th best QB. mostly because he doesn't help much with his legs as evidenced by his rushing yards and inability to escape sacks. Russell Wilson is an example of a QB who uses his legs for rushing yards and escaping sacks: his passer ranking is 25th best, his total QBR ranking is 13th best. anyone here would rather have Orton over Wilson ? And that is why I like QBR better than regular QB rating. Stuff like running and avoiding sacks should be factored into your play as a QB. You can pass for 900 yards but if you only score 17 points because of taking sacks and turnovers, that should matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Orton's QBR is higher than EJ's, so again... why isn't he the best option for the Bills right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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