C.Biscuit97 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 You don't develop accuracy. EJ is in the tank in that regard. Again, ORton completed 51% of his passes averaging 5.1 ypa his first 15 games. EJ has completed 58.6% of his passes at 6.43 ypa. Why can't he improve too? Don't know where your getting this as he 8th among QB's with at least 40 attempts. Not QB rating but QBR. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr He's 28th. Not a perfect stat but a better stat than QB rating. It takes into account passing, running, sacks, and other nerd stuff. And the list pretty much is where you expect certain QBs to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Again, ORton completed 51% of his passes averaging 5.1 ypa his first 15 games. EJ has completed 58.6% of his passes at 6.43 ypa. Why can't he improve too? Not QB rating but QBR. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr He's 28th. Not a perfect stat but a better stat than QB rating. It takes into account passing, running, sacks, and other nerd stuff. And the list pretty much is where you expect certain QBs to be. QBR is just a flat grossly terrible stat to rate Orton 28 when he is throwing for good yardage, great yardage per attempt, great completion percentage, and great 9-3 TD/INT ratio with a 3-1 record. That is just terribly wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC2002 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Again, ORton completed 51% of his passes averaging 5.1 ypa his first 15 games. EJ has completed 58.6% of his passes at 6.43 ypa. Why can't he improve too? Orton was forced to adjust to a system not built around his strengths while EJ was playing in system designed around his . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Orton was forced to adjust to a system not built around his strengths while EJ was playing in system designed around his . How does that bode for the fast paced O they tried last season and then totally scrapped this season? all of the effort the offense spent last season was practically tossed into the trash this season. Edited October 30, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRW Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 QBR is just a flat grossly terrible stat to rate Orton 28 when he is throwing for good yardage, great yardage per attempt, great completion percentage, and great 9-3 TD/INT ratio with a 3-1 record. That is just terribly wrong. Yeah, I know ESPN is still trying to push this stat, but has it actually caught on anywhere else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg F Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Again, ORton completed 51% of his passes averaging 5.1 ypa his first 15 games. EJ has completed 58.6% of his passes at 6.43 ypa. Why can't he improve too? EJ could improve but the difference between him and Orton is Orton's throwing mechanics were good coming into the NFL, EJ's were not. In all likeliness EJ has been throwing that way since he was a kid, it is a habit. Habits are hard to break. Especially habits that someone has been doing for more than a decade. It's possible he could correct it but I think the odds are against him. To fix his bad habits EJ is going to have to consciously think about how he is throwing. He is going to have to repeat the motion over and over until it becomes automatic and he no longer has to think about it. IMO it is good that EJ is sitting where he can concentrate on his throwing mechanics without having to simultaneously try to master the mental aspects of playing QB. Not QB rating but QBR. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr He's 28th. Not a perfect stat but a better stat than QB rating. On what basis can anyone claim that a methodology that is proprietary, cannot be validated by a third party, and that admittedly is based on subjective inputs, be called a "better stat"? As faulty as the NFL QB rating is at least it is based on objective data. ESPN's QBR strikes me as marketing masquerading as objective analysis. Not like that has never been done before. So next time you want to use the ESPN QBR keep in mind your faith in it is just a belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 [/size] EJ could improve but the difference between him and Orton is Orton's throwing mechanics were good coming into the NFL, EJ's were not. In all likeliness EJ has been throwing that way since he was a kid, it is a habit. Habits are hard to break. Especially habits that someone has been doing for more than a decade. It's possible he could correct it but I think the odds are against him. To fix his bad habits EJ is going to have to consciously think about how he is throwing. He is going to have to repeat the motion over and over until it becomes automatic and he no longer has to think about it. IMO it is good that EJ is sitting where he can concentrate on his throwing mechanics without having to simultaneously try to master the mental aspects of playing QB. Not sure what you are talking about. EJ has great throwing motion, mechanics, footwork, etc. His problem is that he doesn't use them all the time. That is the breakdown. He throws great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 But then again it took JP, RJ, Trent fans years after they were done to finally get it I was never a Trent Edwards fan, in part because I was a big JP fan. But I think you could probably argue that it wasn't his talent that began the end of his career so much as Adrian Wilson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg F Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Not sure what you are talking about. EJ has great throwing motion, mechanics, footwork, etc. His problem is that he doesn't use them all the time. That is the breakdown. He throws great. His throwing mechanics include his footwork, which is, and has been terrible. He "doesn't use them all the time" because he needs to actively think about what he is doing. IOW, the process of throwing correctly for EJ has not yet become habit, or ingrained in his muscle memory if you prefer. His biggest problem, when he doesn't have time to think about his throwing motion, is to revert to the old habit of throwing off his back foot. That is the habit he needs to break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 His throwing mechanics include his footwork, which is, and has been terrible. He "doesn't use them all the time" because he needs to actively think about what he is doing. IOW, the process of throwing correctly for EJ has not yet become habit, or ingrained in his muscle memory if you prefer. His biggest problem, when he doesn't have time to think about his throwing motion, is to revert to the old habit of throwing off his back foot. That is the habit he needs to break. I agree with most all that. But that doesn't at all fall into the category that you put it in, which is it's his habit to throw off his back foot. And has been doing that his whole life, and that it isn't correctable because it's a bad habit. He clearly does it too much but he has good footwork for the most part, and always has, and guys that have bad footwork you cannot teach. Guys that have good footwork, but throw off their back foot a lot (Stafford does this all the time, Favre did it all the time, Rivers does it a lot, etc) you just have to get them to not do it so much. That's a very teachable correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Not QB rating but QBR. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr He's 28th. Not a perfect stat but a better stat than QB rating. It takes into account passing, running, sacks, and other nerd stuff. And the list pretty much is where you expect certain QBs to be. http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/qbr-espns-deeply-flawed-made-for-tv-stat/7978/ I like the old, cleaner system myself. QBR is just a flat grossly terrible stat to rate Orton 28 when he is throwing for good yardage, great yardage per attempt, great completion percentage, and great 9-3 TD/INT ratio with a 3-1 record. That is just terribly wrong. You are correct. QBR sucks, as far as I can tell. I'll take the old system averaged out over long stretches any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 QBR is just a flat grossly terrible stat to rate Orton 28 when he is throwing for good yardage, great yardage per attempt, great completion percentage, and great 9-3 TD/INT ratio with a 3-1 record. That is just terribly wrong. It's not perfect but I think it's better than qb rating. Yards are a very overrated stat. Orton's stats are inflated by the Jers game (which was far and away his best game even though he had less yards). Fact was despite the yards, we struggles to score in the Detroit and Minnesota games. That should matter in his rating. Rob Johnson always had a decent qb rating because he would take stats rather than throw the ball away. Compare the list of Qbs on qb rating and qbr. I think the qbr list is a much better indication of good Qbs. http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/qbr-espns-deeply-flawed-made-for-tv-stat/7978/ I like the old, cleaner system myself. You are correct. QBR sucks, as far as I can tell. I'll take the old system averaged out over long stretches any day. So sacks shouldn't be factored in? Because Qbs that take a ton of sacks are killing drives. Also, the old qb rating does not account for garbage time stats and level of competition. It's why so folks think Bradford had a good year last year when he really played good against bad teams and put up garbage time stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from EP Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Let's see if this continues. Hopefully Ej will learn from all this and understand that a QB doesn't always have to be PERFECT! he has to be able to take risks and if those risks fail, then he has to have the composure to shake it off and try again. Orson though is looking good.....#billsmafia #westtexas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 that's your opinion. Not that of others. The record was 2-2 in Sept if you have forgotten Last year the Texans were 2-2 after 4 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Not sure what you are talking about. EJ has great throwing motion, mechanics, footwork, etc. His problem is that he doesn't use them all the time. That is the breakdown. He throws great. EJ doesn't have great footwork. He throws with terrible velocity a lot of the times because of that poor footwork. The guy has great arm strength that he can't take advantage of because of his lower body and his accuracy also suffers greatly because of it. Edited October 30, 2014 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 EJ doesn't have great footwork. He throws with terrible velocity a lot of the times because of that poor footwork. The guy has great arm strength that he can't take advantage of because of his lower body and his accuracy also suffers greatly because of it. I would force him to hang out with Peyton all offseason. It would be a lot more beneficial than our coaching staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 EJ doesn't have great footwork. He throws with terrible velocity a lot of the times because of that poor footwork. The guy has great arm strength that he can't take advantage of because of his lower body and his accuracy also suffers greatly because of it. I don't think so at all. He's a QB that throws a ball as hard as he thinks he has to. There are several guys who do that. More guys throw it hard all the time, or choose to throw hard more often than EJ does. But almost every time he lofts it, he chooses to loft it because he thinks it doesn't need to be gunned. And it's easier to catch. There are several times I have seen that he should have gunned the ball but didn't. He hasn't gotten used to the speed of the NFL yet. I don't think Hackett or Marrone or Dowling should let him do this as much. His accuracy issues, and he has a LOT of him, have nothing to do with that. And the fact he ends up throwing off his back foot have nothing to do with that. If there is no rus, he stands straight, has good footwork, and throws the ball. He just varies the speed on it depending on who he is throwing to and who is in front of the WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) I don't think so at all. He's a QB that throws a ball as hard as he thinks he has to. There are several guys who do that. More guys throw it hard all the time, or choose to throw hard more often than EJ does. But almost every time he lofts it, he chooses to loft it because he thinks it doesn't need to be gunned. And it's easier to catch. There are several times I have seen that he should have gunned the ball but didn't. He hasn't gotten used to the speed of the NFL yet. I don't think Hackett or Marrone or Dowling should let him do this as much. His accuracy issues, and he has a LOT of him, have nothing to do with that. And the fact he ends up throwing off his back foot have nothing to do with that. If there is no rus, he stands straight, has good footwork, and throws the ball. He just varies the speed on it depending on who he is throwing to and who is in front of the WR. His footwork is not good. It doesn't really matter whether you agree or not. It's just not good. I can't speculate as to what his mindset is and what he thinks when he's playing because I don't have that kind of supernatural ability. His footwork is poor and inconsistent. It often leads to inaccurate throws which often lack any kind of velocity. The good news in all of this is that it's absolutely correctable with time. It's impossible to expect his footwork to get cleaned up as a starter because a lot of times when things were broken down or weren't perfect he would revert back to old habits which was quite often. EJ is where he needs to be. Hopefully he gets enough reps and practice so the correct way of doing things becomes habit. I'm just not sure I can take anyone seriously that tries to tell me that a lack of velocity and poorly thrown balls have nothing to do with poor footwork and throwing off of your back foot. Edited October 30, 2014 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cereal Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 completion % and sack ratio I think are connected. EJ might just throw a few more away to avoid the sacks (I think this is small portion of that, but worth mentioning that could be contributing to those stats). I love me some Orton, so it's not a plug for EJ, just something to add to the convo... There were several Orton sacks that I think he was playing it very safe (don't fumble). But those numbers are interesting to see, thanks OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 His footwork is not good. It doesn't really matter whether you agree or not. It's just not good. I can't speculate as to what his mindset is and what he thinks when he's playing because I don't have that kind of supernatural ability. His footwork is poor and inconsistent. It often leads to inaccurate throws which often lack any kind of velocity. The good news in all of this is that it's absolutely correctable with time. It's impossible to expect his footwork to get cleaned up as a starter because a lot of times when things were broken down or weren't perfect he would revert back to old habits which was quite often. EJ is where he needs to be. Hopefully he gets enough reps and practice so the correct way of doing things becomes habit. I'm just not sure I can take anyone seriously that tries to tell me that a lack of velocity and poorly thrown balls aren't a result of poor footwork and throwing off of your back foot. There are a lot of times when he sets his feet and he just misfires for no reason. Those are the most baffling throws of all. His lofting the ball a lot of times also has nothing to do with footwork. His feet are set, he just lofts it because that is the way he plays. It is always to a guy who is wide open or when he is trying to drop it into an area. That happens a lot, too. When there is a strong rush, I agree with you, his footwork suffers greatly because he is panicking too quickly and losing his fundamentals way quicker and way more often than he should be. But that doesnt mean he has bad footwork. It means his fundamentals break down too often. Hackett has even described it a few times in these terms. That's a head thing not a feet thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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