Agent 91 Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Uh huh, and how about completion % by each position? I seem to remember EJ going 7/21 to WR against San Diego. Here's a stat. Orton has thrown 5 TDs in his last 5 quarters. EJ threw 5 TDs in four games. That argument doesnt do much without taking into account average starting field position. And strength of secondary. Orton is playing well. I concede that. And I hope he teaches EJ how to run a huddle. Thats one of the only things I see Orton light years ahead of EJ in. Command of the huddle and confidence. Those 2 factors are why he is starting. This shouldn't be an eternal debate. Who is better. No one cares. Just ride the dang hot hand. And its Orton.
Greg F Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 First 2 Seasons Pro: Orton = 233/448 (52.0% Completion) Manuel = 256/437 (58.6% Completion) First. Orton was 190/368 in his first two years as his second year (2006) he never saw the field. The next time Orton would play was December 17th 2007 where he started the last 3 games (winning 2 of them) of the Bears losing 2007 season. Orton played in 13 or more games in four out of his first five seasons. In only one of those seasons (2009, Denver, 62.1%) was his completion percentage better than Manuel's number this year (58.0%). Orton is a great example of how a quarterback can develop this skill as a professional. From 2008 on Orton has been above 58.5%. 2005 - 51.6% 2006 - DNP 2007 - 53.8% 2008 - 58.5% 2009 - 62.1% 2010 - 58.8% So you are wrong as Orton had 2 years in his first five in the league where he was above 58%. If you only count the years he actually saw the field then 3 of those first 5 years he was above 58%.
Deranged Rhino Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 I think people aren't recognizing the fact that Orton is basically getting ready to start the regular season. I'm basing this on the fact he had no OTAs, no training camp, no preseason games, and very few first team reps before he was handed the keys. He's going to get better if our interior OLine doesn't get him killed. I was thrilled when they signed Orton because he's a gamer and he's never been on a team that has the skilled talent that the BILLS currently have. I'm not at all surprised his stats are good and he looks like an above average guy because that's what I've always seen from him. He always been a victim of his circumstances. Excellent point, and one I'm guilty of not thinking of myself. His ceiling is high, as is the entire offenses' -- even with Pears. Product of his environment and changes in the game. Cutler went to essentially the same Bears' team that Orton left and statistically had a worse season. Welcome to needing talent around you to be a successful QB. Orton finally has it and he's prospering (in spite of OLine play and CJ's inability to see a hole). It's funny because as I watched Sammy take it to the house last Sunday I told my brother that Orton was a genius. He couldn't have picked a better team and situation to come into after orchestrating himself out of Dallas. One look at the skill players on the roster would make any QB drool, especially a guy like Orton who's got one contract left. Anyone who gets to throw to Sammy 80+ times a season is going to end up throwing more touchdowns on accident than most QBs throw on purpose. I have to figure that Sammy's presence, along with the rest of the weapons on this team, plus the uncertainty with EJ's ability to stay healthy all played a huge factor in him choosing Buffalo. And now, he looks brilliant.
Formerly Allan in MD Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Obviously, Orton is a much better passer at this point. I would hope when EJ is in his tenth year, he will be better. The fact that Orton has become a better QB with more experience is why you continue to develop EJ. Look at Orton's first 15 games: http://www.nfl.com/p...ogs?season=2005 51.6%, 5.1 ypa, 9 tds, 13 ints, 59.7 qb rating and a game where he threw 0 tds and 5 ints. I still believe anything less than a winning record and this is a mistake. But so far, especially with the first legit win, it looks good. Hopefully, EJ is learning in the meetings and from Orton. I think we finally have a team good enough where we can sit a 1st rounder on the bench and not be forced to play him. Except Big Ben can break out of sacks. As bad as I think Hackett is, Orton can make some negative plays on his own. They are drive killers (and it's not all on him). It's the reason we struggle to score against the Lions and Vikes despite moving the ball. You don't develop accuracy. EJ is in the tank in that regard.
ricojes Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Here we go with all the "can't teach accuracy" posts, but no one can explain why? As I posted earlier in the thread, why is this the only position in sports where accuracy can not be taught/learned?
JC2002 Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Here we go with all the "can't teach accuracy" posts, but no one can explain why? As I posted earlier in the thread, why is this the only position in sports where accuracy can not be taught/learned? I think think the belief is that accuracy can be IMPROVED but it cannot be taught sorta like with Tebow .This is the same issue .
Buffalo Boy Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Obviously, Orton is a much better passer at this point. I would hope when EJ is in his tenth year, he will be better. The fact that Orton has become a better QB with more experience is why you continue to develop EJ. Look at Orton's first 15 games: http://www.nfl.com/p...ogs?season=2005 51.6%, 5.1 ypa, 9 tds, 13 ints, 59.7 qb rating and a game where he threw 0 tds and 5 ints. I still believe anything less than a winning record and this is a mistake. But so far, especially with the first legit win, it looks good. Hopefully, EJ is learning in the meetings and from Orton. I think we finally have a team good enough where we can sit a 1st rounder on the bench and not be forced to play him. Except Big Ben can break out of sacks. As bad as I think Hackett is, Orton can make some negative plays on his own. They are drive killers (and it's not all on him). It's the reason we struggle to score against the Lions and Vikes despite moving the ball. Pretty much my sentiments about EJ. I can remember passes to Woods, Sammy and Chandler down field. He hit Sammy in the hands on a bomb (Perfect 40 yard drop into the bucket) and it was knocked away. PERFECT throw. I watched another deep crossing route to Sammy that Sammy had to reroute on after the cut(Ball already in the air) because another Bills reciever running a fly down the seem screwwed his route up. Another perfect throw that was called an overthrow by the anouncers. I watched Woods get mugged for 20 straight yards, Texan Defender with one hand, then two on his shoulder and back to QB the whole time, EJ dropping the ball exactly where it needed to be to get the pass interferance and the refs blowwing it. Again, another Bills receiver in same area allowing CB to break off like he was a safety and pick it. We get that pass interferance call and win the game and EJ continues to grow. I get that we are winning a FEW more games with Orton but he over throws every dump to the flat causing recievers to jump/highpoint it and break forward momentum. He absolutely misses blitzers which are in his field of vision. He doesn't move in the pocket or get extra time (Big Ben does) Apparently, roll outs are out of the question for him . A moving pocket is one way to negate a pass rush when your blocking sucks. Orton is "Fools gold". I see four more wins possible. Unless we beat KC, NE, GB or Broncos we are NOT making the playoffs. Who truly believes Hacket with either QB is going to produce enough points. Then it's the off season and what do we do with QB situation? What answers do we have? FOOLS GOLD!!!!!! Give me EJ and an answer.
FireChan Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Pretty much my sentiments about EJ. I can remember passes to Woods, Sammy and Chandler down field. He hit Sammy in the hands on a bomb (Perfect 40 yard drop into the bucket) and it was knocked away. PERFECT throw. I watched another deep crossing route to Sammy that Sammy had to reroute on after the cut(Ball already in the air) because another Bills reciever running a fly down the seem screwwed his route up. Another perfect throw that was called an overthrow by the anouncers. I watched Woods get mugged for 20 straight yards, Texan Defender with one hand, then two on his shoulder and back to QB the whole time, EJ dropping the ball exactly where it needed to be to get the pass interferance and the refs blowwing it. Again, another Bills receiver in same area allowing CB to break off like he was a safety and pick it. We get that pass interferance call and win the game and EJ continues to grow. I get that we are winning a FEW more games with Orton but he over throws every dump to the flat causing recievers to jump/highpoint it and break forward momentum. He absolutely misses blitzers which are in his field of vision. He doesn't move in the pocket or get extra time (Big Ben does) Apparently, roll outs are out of the question for him . A moving pocket is one way to negate a pass rush when your blocking sucks. Orton is "Fools gold". I see four more wins possible. Unless we beat KC, NE, GB or Broncos we are NOT making the playoffs. Who truly believes Hacket with either QB is going to produce enough points. Then it's the off season and what do we do with QB situation? What answers do we have? FOOLS GOLD!!!!!! Give me EJ and an answer. Nah and nah.
Storm Front Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Give me EJ and an answer. You can have EJ, since the answer is with him WE WILL LOSE.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 You can have EJ, since the answer is with him WE WILL LOSE. that's your opinion. Not that of others. The record was 2-2 in Sept if you have forgotten
Storm Front Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 that's your opinion. Not that of others. The record was 2-2 in Sept if you have forgotten Right. It is my opinion. It was also the opinion of Coach Marrone as well. Were you one of the folks who obstinately rooted till the end for Losman and Edwards, too?
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 You don't develop accuracy. EJ is in the tank in that regard. This is not true. A person is not born with the ability to throw a ball accurately.
Deranged Rhino Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Here we go with all the "can't teach accuracy" posts, but no one can explain why? As I posted earlier in the thread, why is this the only position in sports where accuracy can not be taught/learned? The proof is found in the absence of NFL QB's whose accuracy has improved simply due to coaching. It just doesn't happen to any statistically significant degree. Every person, let alone QB, throws the ball differently. There's no uniform mechanic for accurately throwing the football, nothing that can be taught other than improvements in footwork (which can help accuracy -- just not to a significant degree). Plenty of coaches have tried, and failed, to coach accuracy. Plenty of NFL QBs are on the record as stating it's something gifted with -- just like speed.
Storm Front Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Lord knows enough people tried to teach Fitz accuracy.
FireChan Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) The proof is found in the absence of NFL QB's whose accuracy has improved simply due to coaching. It just doesn't happen to any statistically significant degree. Every person, let alone QB, throws the ball differently. There's no uniform mechanic for accurately throwing the football, nothing that can be taught other than improvements in footwork (which can help accuracy -- just not to a significant degree). Plenty of coaches have tried, and failed, to coach accuracy. Plenty of NFL QBs are on the record as stating it's something gifted with -- just like speed. Yep. If accuracy could be significantly taught, there'd be a lot more good QB's in the NFL.. Think about how many guys you know who can throw a football a quarter mile. If you could teach them all accuracy, and 1/10 had the mental make up to be a QB, there'd be about a million good prospects out there. Edited October 30, 2014 by FireChan
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Lord knows enough people tried to teach Fitz accuracy. Actually he didn't get a coach to help him with that till his last year in Buffalo. According to people who coach it takes tens of thousands of throws to change the muscle memory someone has. Hell every time I change my login for work it takes me three weeks before I am typing the right thing. I can just imagine how hard it is for an athlete to do. Yep. If accuracy could be significantly taught, there'd be a lot more good QB's in the NFL.. Think about how many guys you know who can throw a football a quarter mile. If you could teach them all accuracy, and 1/10 had the mental make up to be a QB, there'd be about a million good prospects out there. I believe it takes patience and dedication, my thought is, after their lucrative contracts many of them no longer feel the need to refine their craft with that much effort. Edited October 30, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 (edited) Right. It is my opinion. It was also the opinion of Coach Marrone as well. Were you one of the folks who obstinately rooted till the end for Losman and Edwards, too? So why is EJ out there after everyone else getting in more practice? To get more practice on his accuracy as many claim is lacking. That doesn't look like something the coaches will do if they have lost all faith in his young QB. http://www.buffalobi...ab-f1083eb8e32e Edited October 30, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever
FireChan Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 Actually he didn't get a coach to help him with that till his last year in Buffalo. According to people who coach it takes tens of thousands of throws to change the muscle memory someone has. Hell every time I change my login for work it takes me three week before I have typing the right thing. I can just imagine how hard it is for an athlete to do. I believe it takes patience and dedication, my thought is after, their lucrative contracts many of them no longer feel the need to to refine their craft with that much effort. That may be true. Also, anyone with a coaching background in any sport will tell you that when you change up your mechanics, you get worse before you get better. That situation isn't exactly ideal for a league known for cutting players for playing at a lower level relative to their careers.
Kelly the Dog Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 My opinion is that if you have poor mechanics it's almost impossible to teach accuracy. Fitz had decent mechanics but not good mechanics, and it got worse and worse the harder and further he needed to throw because his arm was not strong enough. So when he had to gun the ball on an out pattern or throw deep, he wound up and threw it as hard as he can like a baseball. You're not going to improve accuracy on that. When he had David Lee trying to fix his accuracy it was really only on one kind of throw, when he looked and planted to throw to the left. Which was a mechanics issue. But it just didn't work and it looked like he got worse trying to think about it. Ej on the other hand, has very good mechanics. But he lets one or two of the ten or so elements of mechanics slip on too many plays, often when there is pressure. It's a pretty common thing for young guys where the game hasn't slowed down for them yet. That's why he can throw beautiful balls at times when he looks awesome, but far, far too often he looks inaccurate. That can be taught. With experience, he can not let one or two elements of his mechanics screw up his motion many fewer times, so in turn he will be a lot more accurate. But that said, there are different kinds or levels of being accurate. There is an accurate completions kind, meaning able to get it to a receiver where he can catch it, and there is a very accurate kind, where you throw darts to guys who catch it on the run. Orton, when he is accurate usually throws darts and hits guys in stride. Ej on the other hand, usually just gets it to guys in the area they can catch it. He has yet to consistently show that he can hit guys in perfect stride on a consistent basis. And there is a huge difference in that kind of accuracy. It's what makes Brady so great. He does it better than anyone. It's what makes Manning and Rogers and Brees great. I'm not sure if that kind of accuracy can be taught. Brady surely improved greatly on it over his first 3-5 years. So it can be improved. We will have to see whether or not EJ can ever do that. If he can't he cannot hit his perceived ceiling. It's my biggest worry about him. He has shown all the tools but that one. Without it, he can be a good quarterback but not a great one. He will put up stats that are better than he is (which he already somewhat has like the second best completion percentage in ACC History).
ricojes Posted October 30, 2014 Posted October 30, 2014 The proof is found in the absence of NFL QB's whose accuracy has improved simply due to coaching. It just doesn't happen to any statistically significant degree. Every person, let alone QB, throws the ball differently. There's no uniform mechanic for accurately throwing the football, nothing that can be taught other than improvements in footwork (which can help accuracy -- just not to a significant degree). Plenty of coaches have tried, and failed, to coach accuracy. Plenty of NFL QBs are on the record as stating it's something gifted with -- just like speed. ok, fair enough. Just seems odd that EJ's accuracy declined so much this season, he was throwing the ball 10 to15 feet over his target at times or it was at their feet. I don't feel like he was that bad last season, but maybe i just don't remember the poor throws or receivers handing their heads as much. My opinion is that if you have poor mechanics it's almost impossible to teach accuracy. Fitz had decent mechanics but not good mechanics, and it got worse and worse the harder and further he needed to throw because his arm was not strong enough. So when he had to gun the ball on an out pattern or throw deep, he wound up and threw it as hard as he can like a baseball. You're not going to improve accuracy on that. When he had David Lee trying to fix his accuracy it was really only on one kind of throw, when he looked and planted to throw to the left. Which was a mechanics issue. But it just didn't work and it looked like he got worse trying to think about it. Ej on the other hand, has very good mechanics. But he lets one or two of the ten or so elements of mechanics slip on too many plays, often when there is pressure. It's a pretty common thing for young guys where the game hasn't slowed down for them yet. That's why he can throw beautiful balls at times when he looks awesome, but far, far too often he looks inaccurate. That can be taught. With experience, he can not let one or two elements of his mechanics screw up his motion many fewer times, so in turn he will be a lot more accurate. But that said, there are different kinds or levels of being accurate. There is an accurate completions kind, meaning able to get it to a receiver where he can catch it, and there is a very accurate kind, where you throw darts to guys who catch it on the run. Orton, when he is accurate usually throws darts and hits guys in stride. Ej on the other hand, usually just gets it to guys in the area they can catch it. He has yet to consistently show that he can hit guys in perfect stride on a consistent basis. And there is a huge difference in that kind of accuracy. It's what makes Brady so great. He does it better than anyone. It's what makes Manning and Rogers and Brees great. I'm not sure if that kind of accuracy can be taught. Brady surely improved greatly on it over his first 3-5 years. So it can be improved. We will have to see whether or not EJ can ever do that. If he can't he cannot hit his perceived ceiling. It's my biggest worry about him. He has shown all the tools but that one. Without it, he can be a good quarterback but not a great one. He will put up stats that are better than he is (which he already somewhat has like the second best completion percentage in ACC History). Well said! I think there are things EJ can do to become a better QB, but how good can he be is the big question.
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