SoulMan Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 EJ# 1 problem now is accuracy. He had many long attempts out of bounds or uncatchatchable. He also had the receivers kind of blinky because they were going to get hurt catching his high passes. Orton has solved most of these and you can see the offense gain confidence. Now the "O" line........
Dorkington Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) For those asking for details on longer throws (from ESPN*): EJ Manuel: Passes thrown 11-20 yards - 10/27, 37%, 211 yards, 7.82 ypa, 0 TD, 1 INT, 50.1 RAT Passes thrown 21-30 yards - 2/10, 20%, 50 yards, 5.0 ypa, 0 TD, 1 INT, 8.3 RAT Passes thrown 31-40 yards - 0/1, 0%, 0 yards, 0 ypa, 0 TD, 0 INT, 39.6 RAT Passes thrown 41+ yards - 1/2, 50%, 80 yards, 40 ypa, 1 TD, 0 INT, 135.4 RAT Passes thrown 11+ yards - 13/40, 32.5%, 341 yards, 8.52 ypa, 1 TD, 2 INT, 52.2 RAT Passes thrown 21+ yards - 3/13, 23.1%, 130 yards, 10 ypa, 1 TD, 1 INT, 62.3 RAT Kyle Orton: Passes thrown 11-20 yards - 19/31, 61.3%, 323 yards, 10.42 ypa, 2 TD, 2 INT, 91.2 RAT Passes thrown 21-30 yards - 4/7, 57.1%, 109 yards, 15.57 ypa, 1 TD, 0 INT, 141.4 RAT Passes thrown 31-40 yards - 1/3, 33.3%, 42 yards, 14 ypa, 0 TD, 0 INT, 81.9 RAT Passes thrown 41+ yards - 0/1, 0%, 0 yards, 0 ypa, 0 TD, 0 INT, 39.6 RAT Passes thrown 11+ yards - 24/42, 57.1%, 474 yards, 11.29 ypa, 3 TD, 2 INT, 100.7 RAT Passes thrown 21+ yards - 5/11, 45.4%, 151 yards, 13.72 ypa, 1 TD, 0 INT, 122.3 RAT * had to calculate the 11+, and 21+ stats myself, so there may be errors, feel free to correct. Edited October 29, 2014 by Dorkington
jr1 Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I don't worry about Orton's sacks. He can't feel pain because of the alcohol
fridge Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 EJ was not close to what Orton was in college. EJ was surrounded by ridiculous talent and had a great defense. EJ was incapable of carrying his team and Jimbo relied on him to not turn the ball over and that's it. Sweeping generalizations are why this argument is useless at this point. I mean you guys talk like EJ never completed a pass. It's insane.
John from Riverside Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 One of the biggest things I see as a positive is red zone scoring...... With EJ our red zone scoring was BAD With Orton our red zone scoring is AWESOME
Dorkington Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 (edited) Red Zone: EJ Manuel: Passing: 7/16, 43.8%, 51 yards, 3.19 ypa, 4 TD, 1 INT, 0 SCK, 65.4 RAT Rushing: 5 carries, 15 yards, 3 ypc, 1 TD Kyle Orton Passing: 9/14, 64.3%, 51 yards, 3.64 ypa, 6 TD, 0 INT, 3 SCK, 110.4 RAT Rushing: 1 carry, 0 yards, 0 ypc, 0 TD (edit: added rushing, since that's one of EJ's strong suits, just to be "fair") Edited October 29, 2014 by Dorkington
ProcessAccepted Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Not true. The Bills wins have been embarrassing, so we really must find a way to win better.... I respectfully disagree. Any win in this league is not embarrassing. Wins are tough to get as the last 14 seasons prove. We are going through a cultural change. We're learning how to scratch out wins. We are starting to expect to win. Prettier wins will come.....
Dorkington Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 To the OP, or an admin/moderator, feel free to add the stats from my previous two posts to the original post for for clarity of comparison.
BigBuff423 Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 This. I said the same thing when we signed Orton. His early years were bad, if not worse, than EJ. Yet he figured it out. I am hoping the same for EJ. And I'm hoping the BILLS won't / don't wait 10 years to find out....sorry, but the NFL has changed. I haven't given up on EJ, but given the plight of a losing culture at OBD, I'm also not willing to just give-up an entire year so the QB can learn the position....if this team were the Jags or to some extent the Browns or Raiders, where the re-building process had just begun, then fine...I'd suck it up for a year or two at max, but with the talent and capabilities at nearly every other position, I don't want to wait for the rest of the team to age out beyond productivity for the QB. To me, this highlights why the change on the Offensive line needed to be made, and in regards to Pears - still does...Kujo and Richardson will hopefully turn out to be very, very good but they're young, especially Kujo as he came to football late in his young life, but this team is too good to forego an entire season with bad blocking so they can learn...JMHO
Dorkington Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 And I'm hoping the BILLS won't / don't wait 10 years to find out....sorry, but the NFL has changed. I haven't given up on EJ, but given the plight of a losing culture at OBD, I'm also not willing to just give-up an entire year so the QB can learn the position....if this team were the Jags or to some extent the Browns or Raiders, where the re-building process had just begun, then fine...I'd suck it up for a year or two at max, but with the talent and capabilities at nearly every other position, I don't want to wait for the rest of the team to age out beyond productivity for the QB. To me, this highlights why the change on the Offensive line needed to be made, and in regards to Pears - still does...Kujo and Richardson will hopefully turn out to be very, very good but they're young, especially Kujo as he came to football late in his young life, but this team is too good to forego an entire season with bad blocking so they can learn...JMHO Frankly, it's unlikely there will be a better veteran option than Kyle Orton in the off season, and drafting a guy in the 2nd round isn't any guarantee that he'll be better than KO or EJ... so as of right now I have no problems going into next season with KO and EJ battling it out for the starting role.
bobobonators Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Frankly, it's unlikely there will be a better veteran option than Kyle Orton in the off season, and drafting a guy in the 2nd round isn't any guarantee that he'll be better than KO or EJ... so as of right now I have no problems going into next season with KO and EJ battling it out for the starting role. Agreed. We would be better served to use that 2nd round pick on an OL or TE or LB or like they say, you can never have enough CB.
BigBuff423 Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Frankly, it's unlikely there will be a better veteran option than Kyle Orton in the off season, and drafting a guy in the 2nd round isn't any guarantee that he'll be better than KO or EJ... so as of right now I have no problems going into next season with KO and EJ battling it out for the starting role. If Orton continues to play like he has, and hopefully just a bit better, throughout the rest of the year and the BILLS make the playoffs with him leading the Offense and producing points, it's not like he's old by NFL QB standards, so I'd be fine with Orton...but still think I'd Draft a 2nd round QB this year....there are plenty of good to great QBs to Draft in the 2nd or 3rd round every year, but you do have to find and mine for the right one....I've said it before, if I was in the FO, my only goal for QBs would be to evaluate as often and as in depth as possible the QBs in college that have led a Pro Style Offense for a minimum of two years...again, JMO
Dorkington Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 If Orton continues to play like he has, and hopefully just a bit better, throughout the rest of the year and the BILLS make the playoffs with him leading the Offense and producing points, it's not like he's old by NFL QB standards, so I'd be fine with Orton...but still think I'd Draft a 2nd round QB this year....there are plenty of good to great QBs to Draft in the 2nd or 3rd round every year, but you do have to find and mine for the right one....I've said it before, if I was in the FO, my only goal for QBs would be to evaluate as often and as in depth as possible the QBs in college that have led a Pro Style Offense for a minimum of two years...again, JMO In a year we don't have a 1st round pick, I consider our 2nd round pick to be incredibly important. The player needs to be a guaranteed NFL starting player at a position of need. If Orton continues his success, and EJ grows (according to the coaching staff, since we can't see it right now), then using a 2nd round pick on the *hope* you get a QB that ends up being top 10, seems too risky, especially with our weaknesses on the offensive line, and other areas. I think we wait until the 2016 draft before we think QB again in early rounds.
ricojes Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I respectfully disagree. Any win in this league is not embarrassing. Wins are tough to get as the last 14 seasons prove. We are going through a cultural change. We're learning how to scratch out wins. We are starting to expect to win. Prettier wins will come..... you're new here, you'll get it eventually...
BigBuff423 Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 In a year we don't have a 1st round pick, I consider our 2nd round pick to be incredibly important. The player needs to be a guaranteed NFL starting player at a position of need. If Orton continues his success, and EJ grows (according to the coaching staff, since we can't see it right now), then using a 2nd round pick on the *hope* you get a QB that ends up being top 10, seems too risky, especially with our weaknesses on the offensive line, and other areas. I think we wait until the 2016 draft before we think QB again in early rounds. The only problem I have with that, and to me waiting until the 3rd round is fine too based on scouting, is that by 2016 that means the BILLS could very well be Drafting their next QB, which would be hopefully in the bottom of the 1st round, and then forced to start a Rookie QB, which many of us (and maybe you too, not sure) think is not a good strategy. To me, in today's NFL, you don't want most Rookie QBs being thrown into the fire, but you can't given them two or three years either, just not the way things work anymore. So, ideally it would be one year. And, to fair, this coaching staff thought EJ was ready, and we see how that worked out...so, given how much deeper this team is in so many ways, I'd rather they spend a 2nd or 3rd round pick on a qualified QB THIS upcoming Draft, and let that guy work behind Orton and allow EJ to beat *him* out for the spot, that way in 2016 this team isn't "all in" on EJ only to find out he can't do it and thrust another Rookie into the lion's den...we may disagree with how to get there, but I think we agree on principle: the right QB for the job, both short-term and long-term, but those two are probably not the same QB.
John Cocktosten Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Sweeping generalizations are why this argument is useless at this point. I mean you guys talk like EJ never completed a pass. It's insane. You can start by punching holes in what I said. Are you telling me that EJ wasn't surrounded by ridiculous amounts of talent? There were 10 (not including him) guys drafted his senior year and 7 (all from different positions) more the following year. That's means he played with 17 players who were drafted. Specific enough? Never said EJ couldn't complete a pass but EJ was not one of the most important football players on that team and proved it by never providing a performance that all of the greats and some of the "goods" have.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 (edit: added rushing, since that's one of EJ's strong suits, just to be "fair") LOL
Solomon Grundy Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 sacks are Orton's weakness....which is why his QBR stats stink, compared to his very good passer rating. #1- he goes down like a feather #2- he doesn't see half of them coming forgetting the stats, he is much better than EJ. Being a 10 year veteran doesn't hurt
fridge Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 You can start by punching holes in what I said. Are you telling me that EJ wasn't surrounded by ridiculous amounts of talent? There were 10 (not including him) guys drafted his senior year and 7 (all from different positions) more the following year. That's means he played with 17 players who were drafted. Specific enough? Never said EJ couldn't complete a pass but EJ was not one of the most important football players on that team and proved it by never providing a performance that all of the greats and some of the "goods" have. So what? What is your point, other than making a generalization? Not every QB's college career is created equal. If you want to go simply off of that, great...then don't ignore his success. Here's a quick hole in your theory that doesn't make excuses for anyone: EJ was 4-0 in bowl games. Kyle Orton was 1-3.
metzelaars_lives Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 wow If I had posted this the EJ haters would have gone wild!!!! the KO lovers hate EJ, want to fire Marone, Hacket and anyone else involved but their lovable hero. They are also of the group that wants to trade EJ for McCoy because Colt has potential!! --------------- y'all chose to give me crap for a week when I let the dead horse die. you expected me to be quiet? +1 Geez you'd think as a Bills fan- 4 ever mind you- that you'd be happy that the Bills are finally getting competent QB play for the first time since the beginning of 2011. Aaron Rodgers and Ben Roethlisberger are always at the top of the league in sacks. Sometimes that's the trade off for keeping passes to wide receivers as an option in your arsenal. And as an Orton supporter and someone who thinks EJ will never amount to anything in this league, I am not a Marrone or Hackett hater as you suggest. Not sure where you got that idea from. I just want to make the g***amn playoffs.
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