Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Absolutely. But when I look at the gist of the red zone problems, it comes down to our poor QB execution more than anything else. Schematically, it can't be argued that Hackett's designs are NOT getting guys open; they are. And with astounding regularity and it's usually more than one guy to boot. Again, I get the fans' teeth gnashing but I find it hard to be so cynical that Marrone is just being stubborn rather than dressing personnel that best serves HIS perceived requirements for all three phases. Especially special teams. We have had exponential improvement in that area and I think that reflects Marrone's commitment to that phase. GO BILLS!!! I don't disagree but the fact remains that there are struggles in the red zone. MW is a target their that can win jump balls and alleviate those struggles. In terms of ST it is better but I don't think that Larry Dean is the reason. He is about the 5th best cover guy (behind Easley, Graham, Boobie and Hogan). The Bills have been using starters on ST as well which is a reason for the improvement. I have no problem with keeping a KOS because at least he can impact the game. Larry Dean will never do that. Mike Williams can potentially do that.
4merper4mer Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Mike Williams can make all the plays he wants. Orton has to throw him an accurate ball. It's been pointed out a few times. Recievers were open. Orton missed them. Having Mike Williams active doesn't necessarily fix that. I don't think anyone is saying it will solve all the problems, but: Williams is clearly a far superior talent to Lou Piccone but every week, there is Piccone again. We have our kickoff specialist active even though we can't score. How does that make sense? There are some on here who simply defer to the coach along the lines of "well, he must have a reason". It doesn't pass the smell test at all.
Kelly the Dog Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Mike Williams can make all the plays he wants. Orton has to throw him an accurate ball. It's been pointed out a few times. Recievers were open. Orton missed them. Having Mike Williams active doesn't necessarily fix that. He may have come down with the high pass to Hogan although it would have been spectacular. He may have come down with the jump ball to Watkins which is his specialty.
4merper4mer Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 I don't disagree but the fact remains that there are struggles in the red zone. MW is a target their that can win jump balls and alleviate those struggles. In terms of ST it is better but I don't think that Larry Dean is the reason. He is about the 5th best cover guy (behind Easley, Graham, Boobie and Hogan). The Bills have been using starters on ST as well which is a reason for the improvement. I have no problem with keeping a KOS because at least he can impact the game. Larry Dean will never do that. Mike Williams can potentially do that. Not until we score he can't.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Not until we score he can't. Point being I'd rather dress a KOS than a 5th best ST cover guy. Gay had 4 kickoffs against Thomas who is dangerous. If you are limiting that guys chances of making a big play in a close game it is a positive. The dropoff from Gay to Carpenter on kickoffs is greater than the dropoff from Dean to Powell on ST. Edited November 11, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
4merper4mer Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Point being I'd rather dress a KOS than a 5th best ST cover guy. Gay had 4 kickoffs against Thomas who is dangerous. If you are limiting that guys chances ofaking a big play in a close game it is a positive. The dropoff from Gay to Carpenter on kickoffs is greater than the dropoff from Dean to Powell on ST. Fair enough but choosing him over Williams is mind boggling.In truth it comes down to Piccone who I'm sure is a hard worker but nowhere near Williams. Edited November 11, 2014 by 4merper4mer
Wayne Cubed Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 He may have come down with the high pass to Hogan although it would have been spectacular. He may have come down with the jump ball to Watkins which is his specialty. Maybe, but who knows. He missed a jump ball earlier in the season in the end zone. I mean some of those throws weren't close.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Fair enough but choosing him over Williams is mind boggling.In truth it comes down to Piccone who I'm sure is a hard work but nowhere near Williams. Just to be clear I am 100% behind Williams playing. I just believe that there are other guys that I would sit before Gay.
NoSaint Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Point being I'd rather dress a KOS than a 5th best ST cover guy. Gay had 4 kickoffs against Thomas who is dangerous. If you are limiting that guys chances of making a big play in a close game it is a positive. The dropoff from Gay to Carpenter on kickoffs is greater than the dropoff from Dean to Powell on ST. and of course the ever present, if you are carrying kicking specialists you can probably go a little lighter on the coverage specialists. kind of a one or the other situation, i think. Edited November 11, 2014 by NoSaint
K D Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) Also, it seems to go against your logic ... how do you think they got in the position of being 2nd and 2 at the 5 and then 1st and 10 at the 15? Did KC just put the ball in those locations? What some people fail to understand and what Hackett has failed to understand for 2 seasons now is that play calling in the redzone is different than normal play calls. It's a shorter field more guys cramped in. You have to have a different mind set than you do in other parts of the field. Hackett has had a terrible redzone percentage and I'm sure some of the stat guys can post something up that shows that Edited November 11, 2014 by kdiggz
FireChan Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 What some people fail to understand and what Hackett has failed to understand for 2 seasons now is that play calling in the redzone is different than normal play calls. It's a shorter field more guys cramped in. You have to have a different mind set than you do in other parts of the field. Hackett has had a terrible redzone percentage and I'm sure some of the stat guys can post something up that shows that Recievers are open. You're wrong.
K-9 Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Who would you activate? Mike Williams or Larry Dean. I don't know. I guess the question I have for Marrone is "Does Larry Dean bring more to your special teams phase than Mike Williams brings to your receiving game?" Sure, on the surface Mike Williams is a better football player with past success, but is he gonna get any more open than the receivers Orton managed to miss already? Can he play special teams in the meantime? We fans play the popularity game all the time without always stopping to think that there may be legitimate reasons for having various personnel in the lineup. And even if Marrone is simply being spiteful because Williams isn't measuring up on some level, he still gets to make the decision. I prefer to worry about the players we have in the lineup more than the players we don't. GO BILLS!!! He may have come down with the high pass to Hogan although it would have been spectacular. He may have come down with the jump ball to Watkins which is his specialty. Yeah, and he may have missed the ball Hogan caught to set up Sammy's game winner vs. Minny. I just don't understand the make believe aspect of this argument. But if we need to feel that Mike Williams is the missing link on a team that constantly has receivers running open anyway, then have at it. GO BILLS!!!
4merper4mer Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 I don't know. I guess the question I have for Marrone is "Does Larry Dean bring more to your special teams phase than Mike Williams brings to your receiving game?" Sure, on the surface Mike Williams is a better football player with past success, but is he gonna get any more open than the receivers Orton managed to miss already? Can he play special teams in the meantime? We fans play the popularity game all the time without always stopping to think that there may be legitimate reasons for having various personnel in the lineup. And even if Marrone is simply being spiteful because Williams isn't measuring up on some level, he still gets to make the decision. I prefer to worry about the players we have in the lineup more than the players we don't. GO BILLS!!! It sure seems like he is being spiteful which of course keeps his thin skin unscathed but also hurts the team. Kicker, special teamer, whatever. There are arguments to be made there but Williams is 5 times the player Piccone will ever be.
K-9 Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 It sure seems like he is being spiteful which of course keeps his thin skin unscathed but also hurts the team. Kicker, special teamer, whatever. There are arguments to be made there but Williams is 5 times the player Piccone will ever be. And yet, Piccone is in the lineup and making plays while other receivers are getting open as well. Tough to make a case that Williams is so much better when he doesn't have the opportunity to prove it. Maybe if they missed him more on the field but week in and week out, Hackett is finding ways to get these guys open both in the redzone and between the 20s. Too bad our QBs aren't as good at their position as Williams is at his. GO BILLS!!!
Kelly the Dog Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Yeah, and he may have missed the ball Hogan caught to set up Sammy's game winner vs. Minny. I just don't understand the make believe aspect of this argument. But if we need to feel that Mike Williams is the missing link on a team that constantly has receivers running open anyway, then have at it. GO BILLS!!! A poster asked what plays would MW have made a difference and I answered. Ha. We already discussed the Larry Dean issue in depth earlier in the thread.
K-9 Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 A poster asked what plays would MW have made a difference and I answered. Ha. We already discussed the Larry Dean issue in depth earlier in the thread. Glad I missed those posts. I will respectfully defer to your psychic abilities. GO BILLS!!!
RuntheDamnBall Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 No. Can you cite a productive player getting traded for peanuts who plays well in his new city? After an injury, of course. Randy Moss?
4merper4mer Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 And yet, Piccone is in the lineup and making plays while other receivers are getting open as well. Tough to make a case that Williams is so much better when he doesn't have the opportunity to prove it. Maybe if they missed him more on the field but week in and week out, Hackett is finding ways to get these guys open both in the redzone and between the 20s. Too bad our QBs aren't as good at their position as Williams is at his. GO BILLS!!! I give up Mrs. Hackett. Your boy is in fact a genius. You should buy him a Raggedy Andy doll for Christmas so he can always be reminded of Lou Piccone.
K D Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Recievers are open. You're wrong. http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct We are LAST IN THE NFL in redzone offense and we were one of the worst last season too. You are wrong sir
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