NoSaint Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 The Chiefs returned three punts for 8 yards and one KO. Larry Dean made no tackles. I think he's cycling back out of reasonable and into digging in for the sake of digging in.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 What are the odds that Lee Smith is the primary route in that play? What are the chances Hackett dialed up that play and told Orton, "Hey, make sure you throw it to our blocking TE, because he's definitely gonna break it for 20 yards or a TD?" He was ABSOLUTELY the primary target on that play. Every team uses that bootleg TE drag. The problem is the Bills don't have any TEs. Why would you ever draw up a play for Lee Smith?
Kelly the Dog Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Is the only guy who matters in punt coverage the guy who makes the tackle? No, but IIRC two of the punts the guy was tackled immediately by the first guy down the field and the other one he just missed the first guy and was surrounded by about four Bills on the sideline.
Fixxxer Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 What makes you think Marrone is keeping a clear better option on the bench? I'll admit it's possible that MW is our third-best WR, but if he is, and he clearly is, why have the players not freaked out like they did when Marrone kept playing EJ over Orton? Do they have a one-mutiny-per-season clause in their contracts? And I think Woods is already better than MW. We don't and will not know the entire MW story. If he's dogging it in practice, does it hurt the team more to accept it and play him or bench him? Marrone ain't BB, but they both know if a player isn't giving you a total effort, he doesn't play, regardless of talent or past accolades. That's the only way to keep a locker room stable. EDIT: I am speculating on MW. But, IMO, it's the only scenario that adequately explains this situation. Exactly, if there were a scenario where Marrone is benching guys on pure whims and/or plain stubbornness we would be hearing things in the press, subtle things leaked by players on interviews, au contraire I've heard, captain Kyle Williams talking about the toughness this team has and shows every Sunday, how things are different "right now".
NoSaint Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) 100% probably. That was without question a play to go to the TE immediately. I'd bet my paycheck smith was #1 there. That's the problem- FC thinks it was too crazy to be the right thing and I think you Kirby and I all think Hackett thinks smith is the crafty deceptive and the DC would think it's crazy to expect option He was ABSOLUTELY the primary target on that play. Every team uses that bootleg TE drag. The problem is the Bills don't have any TEs. Why would you ever draw up a play for Lee Smith? Yup Edited November 11, 2014 by NoSaint
Kelly the Dog Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 He was ABSOLUTELY the primary target on that play. Every team uses that bootleg TE drag. The problem is the Bills don't have any TEs. Why would you ever draw up a play for Lee Smith? There was a play a year or two ago where Lee Smith actually caught a pass and was running upfield. A WR, or maybe it was Chandler, was blocking right in front of him, and Smith just ran right into the defender or something to that effect. The Bills blocker said to him, "Why didnt you just cut upfield, no one was there?" And Lee Smith said "I don't cut."
FireChan Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Most people would beat around the bush; I have a great deal of respect for you answering that. While I applaud you for answering the question I can't imagine that you actually believe that. MW has impacted the outcome of a bunch of games in his career while Larry Dean has been a part time special teamer. He is probably no better than the 4th or 5th best cover guy on the roster. It's no surprise that most tend to disagree with Marrone's philosophy towards a gameplan. We're 5-4 with slim playoff chances. In fact, I have my own issues with Marrone in terms of when he plays conservative and when he doesn't. However, I can only assume that Marrone looked at how putrid we were last year on ST and made some tough, or even faulty, decisions to improve that area. You can say it's at the expense of improving the offense, and it very well might be. But our ST coverage has gone from one of the worst to one of the best in a short offseason. And you can't argue with that result. I think he's cycling back out of reasonable and into digging in for the sake of digging in. I come and go like the tides.
NoSaint Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 It's no surprise that most tend to disagree with Marrone's philosophy towards a gameplan. We're 5-4 with slim playoff chances. In fact, I have my own issues with Marrone in terms of when he plays conservative and when he doesn't. However, I can only assume that Marrone looked at how putrid we were last year on ST and made some tough, or even faulty, decisions to improve that area. You can say it's at the expense of improving the offense, and it very well might be. But our ST coverage has gone from one of the worst to one of the best in a short offseason. And you can't argue with that result. I come and go like the tides. Seems your coming back around. I can't get behind dean over Williams still.
26TrapDraw Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 If you're the worst red zone offense in the league and you aren't willing to hold you OC responsible, you're in denial.
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 13 points. Make all the excuses you want, 13 points. 48 passing attempts with Kyle Orton against the #1 passing defense when your running game is averaging 5 ypc. Just because we're Bills' fans doesn't mean we need to make excuses for JV coaching.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 It's no surprise that most tend to disagree with Marrone's philosophy towards a gameplan. We're 5-4 with slim playoff chances. In fact, I have my own issues with Marrone in terms of when he plays conservative and when he doesn't. However, I can only assume that Marrone looked at how putrid we were last year on ST and made some tough, or even faulty, decisions to improve that area. You can say it's at the expense of improving the offense, and it very well might be. But our ST coverage has gone from one of the worst to one of the best in a short offseason. And you can't argue with that result. I don't disagree. I just think that it is more of a function of the improved kicking game, Corey Graham and Boobie Dixon than the 5th best coverage guy. So far Dean has not impacted any games. Yesterday the Bills scored no TDs on 4 possessions inside the red zone. That is what Mike Williams does best. I am not saying that he is perfect but when you say "who should dress Mike Williams or Larry Dean" it really isn't a contest.
FireChan Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 He was ABSOLUTELY the primary target on that play. Every team uses that bootleg TE drag. The problem is the Bills don't have any TEs. Why would you ever draw up a play for Lee Smith? I don't want to have to quote all of you, so let me ask you all this. Was Chandler on the field for that play? 13 points. Make all the excuses you want, 13 points. 48 passing attempts with Kyle Orton against the #1 passing defense when your running game is averaging 5 ypc. Just because we're Bills' fans doesn't mean we need to make excuses for JV coaching. You know, when some of the most knowledgeable posters on this board, who all disapprove of Hackett, have come out and said, "playcalling looked much better, and didn't provide too much impact on us losing," it's time to slow down.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 I don't want to have to quote all of you, so let me ask you all this. Was Chandler on the field for that play? I don't know but based on where Smith was it was designed to go to him. They wouldn't roll 2 TEs to the same spot. It's a very, very common play. I just don't get why there are any plays in the playbook designed to go to Lee Smith?
Rob's House Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Seems your coming back around. I can't get behind dean over Williams still. a It's not really a question of whether Dean is generally more valuable than Williams, but rather whether he's more valuable to the Bills than Williams. If Williams doesn't represent an improvement over the other WRs on the roster, but Dean is a substantial improvement over whoever else would man his spot on ST then it's conceivable that he could be more valuable even if he has less overall value in the league.
FireChan Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Seems your coming back around. I can't get behind dean over Williams still. I sometimes play devil's advocate on this board. Not just to argue for the sake of arguing, but mostly because I truly don't believe most issues on the Bills are as cut-and-dried as some claim. a It's not really a question of whether Dean is generally more valuable than Williams, but rather whether he's more valuable to the Bills than Williams. If Williams doesn't represent an improvement over the other WRs on the roster, but Dean is a substantial improvement over whoever else would man his spot on ST then it's conceivable that he could be more valuable even if he has less overall value in the league. Yeah, this is what I was saying in a horrifically roundabout way.
C.Biscuit97 Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 I don't want to have to quote all of you, so let me ask you all this. Was Chandler on the field for that play? You know, when some of the most knowledgeable posters on this board, who all disapprove of Hackett, have come out and said, "playcalling looked much better, and didn't provide too much impact on us losing," it's time to slow down. This happens every game though. It is a struggle to score 20 points every game. It's not just a one game thing. If yesterday was a rarity, I'd chalk it up to bad luck. But bad luck happens a lot more to bad coaches. This offense is single handedly going to keep us out of the playoffs.
FireChan Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 I don't know but based on where Smith was it was designed to go to him. They wouldn't roll 2 TEs to the same spot. It's a very, very common play. I just don't get why there are any plays in the playbook designed to go to Lee Smith? Okay. let's assume Chandler was off the field and was gassed, or whatever. KC is showing a look that you gameplanned a very specific play for. A play that you are convinced will result in an open field for your TE. Do you not run it because Lee Smith is that TE? Even though all he has to do is catch the ball, and he's getting 6-7 easy? I'm thinking you'll say yes, but I don't think ol' Lee had a single drop this year before KC. He has a TD, though. That was also designed for him and worked. This happens every game though. It is a struggle to score 20 points every game. It's not just a one game thing. If yesterday was a rarity, I'd chalk it up to bad luck. But bad luck happens a lot more to bad coaches. This offense is single handedly going to keep us out of the playoffs. Do I need to do my, "Damn that Hackett for calling that Bryce Brown fumble play" schtick, or would you just rather slink away on your own?
Kelly the Dog Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 a It's not really a question of whether Dean is generally more valuable than Williams, but rather whether he's more valuable to the Bills than Williams. If Williams doesn't represent an improvement over the other WRs on the roster, but Dean is a substantial improvement over whoever else would man his spot on ST then it's conceivable that he could be more valuable even if he has less overall value in the league. Unless it was a particularly egregious defiant act by Williams, and I am betting that it is not from my question to Whaley about him last Sunday where Whaley specifically said that MW has never been a problem, and loves being on the team, there is no justification IMO to not have him play. He does one thing great and a lot of things well. He's done it dozens of times in regular season NFL games. We got him specifically to do that thing. We are clearly having specific trouble with the one thing he does great. There is no question in my mind it's an enormous coaching mistake.
Kirby Jackson Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 (edited) a It's not really a question of whether Dean is generally more valuable than Williams, but rather whether he's more valuable to the Bills than Williams. If Williams doesn't represent an improvement over the other WRs on the roster, but Dean is a substantial improvement over whoever else would man his spot on ST then it's conceivable that he could be more valuable even if he has less overall value in the league. I'd listen to that argument if the Bills weren't woeful in the red zone. That happens to be where Williams excels. You present a solid perspective but they desperately could use a red zone weapon. It is much more important than your 5th best STer. Edited November 11, 2014 by Kirby Jackson
Coach Tuesday Posted November 11, 2014 Posted November 11, 2014 Unless it was a particularly egregious defiant act by Williams, and I am betting that it is not from my question to Whaley about him last Sunday where Whaley specifically said that MW has never been a problem, and loves being on the team, there is no justification IMO to not have him play. He does one thing great and a lot of things well. He's done it dozens of times in regular season NFL games. We got him specifically to do that thing. We are clearly having specific trouble with the one thing he does great. There is no question in my mind it's an enormous coaching mistake. It's also a CLEAR indication that the coach and GM aren't on the same page. Whaley acquired MW to do that one thing. Marrone won't use him. The signs of discord continue, and are troubling.
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