Fire Hackett

[The Big Cat]

I've come to the conclusion that the generally poor play-calling is just a symptom of an overall offensive strategy that Hackett/Marrone have in place. I remember them banging the "analytics" drum a while back, and this is what they came up with.

I could easily see them looking at NFL games and concluding that in order to win, the first step is to not get blown out. If you can keep a game close, even mediocre teams will be in position to win games in the 4th quarter. The logic would then be to avoid turnovers (especially pick-6 INTs) and win the field position battle.

Even though this makes sense, I think our current team does not fit well with this strategy. Our offense is more of a quick-strike type than a grind-it-down-the-field type. Our QB is going to throw picks, our O-line will get a bunch of holding penalties, so we need a strategy that allows the offense more chances at big plays to offset the mistakes. I think.

 

He threw zero picks. There were zero holds. And we had plays of 84 and 61 yards.

[Kelly the Dog]

I think there is likely a huge faction of posters in this thread, including myself, who do not think that Hackett should be fired in the middle of the season, for several reasons, but are ranting against him as hard as anyone who (IMO foolishly) does.

 

I also think, have stated, as others like Alaska Darin have, that this is as much a Marrone problem as a Hackett problem. And that it wouldn't help at all to fire Hackett, it may make it worse because Marrone would then take over calling plays.

 

There is also a huge faction, again including myself, who are much more pissed about the strategy of groupings and formations and players on the field than the amount of runs, or specific play calls.

[Nitro]

I am not a fan of Hackett this season. I don't want him to get fired but he needs to retool the play book during the bye. They need to develop plays that work to the strengths of the players. Yesterday was a good victory tinged with aggravation on play calls.

[Chuck Schick]

 

 

He threw zero picks. There were zero holds. And we had plays of 84 and 61 yards.

I'm speaking generally, not one game in hindsight. And I'm definitely not going to base an offensive strategy -- which after 8 games I think has been proven to be pretty consistent-- I sure am not going to count on +6 turnover ratio.

[freeagentqb]

Is Hackett from the Jauron tree of coaches?

[NoSaint]

Is Hackett from the Jauron tree of coaches?

 

in that one of his first nfl gigs was under him, kind of.

[eball]

I started a thread last week that I expect the Bills' offense to improve significantly from this point forward. Some interpreted that as meaning against the Jets yesterday, but I was really talking about the 2nd half of the season.

 

That said, criticizing Hackett for an overly conservative gameplan in the 2nd half yesterday is somewhat foolish, in my opinion. The Bills' defense was stifling; without Vick showing shades of his dog killer persona running with the football I doubt New Jersey would have scored more than three points. The "run-run-pass" pattern is predictable, but also guarantees you'll take some time off the clock in a game you're simply trying to end. Orton took a number of big hits and exposing him further wouldn't have made sense. When they needed to make plays in the passing game they did -- with tremendous success.

 

The time is right for the entire staff to evaluate their successes and failures over the first half of the season, and put this offense into high gear starting with the Chefs.

[thewildrabbit]

Wanndstedt had some support because of the defenses he'd coached in the past, but any support he had dried up after that debacle against the 9ers.

 

And not to poke fun, but weren't you a huge EJ supporter?

And I still am.

 

Its clear that Orton, and his ten years of playing experience is allowing this team to win games despite the Bills coaches. I'm grateful that EJ is benched because now he won't be subject to the several concussions that ruined Trent Edwards career because of that horrible O line...and I thought it was bad in years past. There is still that chance that EJ can be developed in the future, but not by this offensive staff.

 

It is clear to me at least, that Bills OC, Mr Can't Hackett doesn't have the wherewithal to develop a rookie QB in the NFL. Now i look back at that first season with 3 rookie QB's on the roster, and smile while thinking how clueless this offensive staff is, and wondering how they won any games at all. The Bills were only 20th or so on offense last season, and now they are worse. They had a sort of decent run game last year, and now they are worse.

 

Up until the Jets game Hackett had his QB's throwing more then the Broncos, and running less then them. Just unreal!

 

All I can say is IMO with the talent on this roster (aside from OG) a top offensive staff would probably have them contending for the division title, and playoffs no question. The type of offense this team is putting on the field is unsustainable in winning games against good teams.

 

I think the difference in a top offensive set of coaches would be like the difference between George Edwards-Dave Wannstedt vs Pettine-Schwartz has been for the defense.

[voodoo poonani]

Why do we have to run up the middle twice then throw deep. KO's interceptions and sacks come while he's looking downfield. A 5 yard throw and catch is as good (or better) than a run. Mix in some quick slants, drags, short ins/outs to move the ball down the field. 6 TOs on the opponents side of the 50 yard line and only 20 points is sad. We won and that IS great, but when does it cost us a game (or several)?

[dave mcbride]

The Bills are now 32nd in plays per drive, 31st in yards per drive, and 24th in points per drive. I suspect the higher-points-per-drive ranking is an effect of the defense, which has been good at creating good field position for the offense.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2014.htm

[FireChan]

And I still am.

 

Its clear that Orton, and his ten years of playing experience is allowing this team to win games despite the Bills coaches. I'm grateful that EJ is benched because now he won't be subject to the several concussions that ruined Trent Edwards career because of that horrible O line...and I thought it was bad in years past. There is still that chance that EJ can be developed in the future, but not by this offensive staff.

 

It is clear to me at least, that Bills OC, Mr Can't Hackett doesn't have the wherewithal to develop a rookie QB in the NFL. Now i look back at that first season with 3 rookie QB's on the roster, and smile while thinking how clueless this offensive staff is, and wondering how they won any games at all. The Bills were only 20th or so on offense last season, and now they are worse. They had a sort of decent run game last year, and now they are worse.

 

Up until the Jets game Hackett had his QB's throwing more then the Broncos, and running less then them. Just unreal!

 

All I can say is IMO with the talent on this roster (aside from OG) a top offensive staff would probably have them contending for the division title, and playoffs no question. The type of offense this team is putting on the field is unsustainable in winning games against good teams.

 

I think the difference in a top offensive set of coaches would be like the difference between George Edwards-Dave Wannstedt vs Pettine-Schwartz has been for the defense.

 

So what are we doing right now, one game back in the division? With road wins against playoff teams. Are we not contending? Are we not winning?

 

Unrealistic expectations. That's all this is. Andy Reid has his team contending. They still played a bad game and lost to the Titans. They probably won't split with the Broncos. Are they not playoff contenders? The Pats squeaked by the Raiders and got blown out by KC. Are they contenders? This isn't the Denver offense, we don't have a HoF or even a franchise QB. What did you expect? 30 PPG, out dueling Brady 48-41?

 

With all the complaining about the OC, you'd think we're 3-5, and are winning games with 10 field goals. We're not.

 

Also, can we take a step back with your post. All offseason, you complained about the O-line. You said we'll flounder until we adequately address the OG situation. Now, you're saying is all we need is a top-offensive staff? Or we need both to contend? Hmm, just some All-pro guards and a Hall of Fame coaching staff to contend for the division title. We must be super talented!

Edited October 27, 2014 by FireChan

[Kelly the Dog]

The Bills are now 32nd in plays per drive, 31st in yards per drive, and 24th in points per drive. I suspect the higher-points-per-drive ranking is an effect of the defense, which has been good at creating good field position for the offense.

 

http://www.pro-footb...ms/buf/2014.htm

I don't really know how they would be different, but I think for the most part, all discussions of the Bills offense, insofar as what it is now, or will be going forward, should only include the four Orton games. it's a whole different animal, even if 90% of its parts are the same.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[thewildrabbit]

I think there is likely a huge faction of posters in this thread, including myself, who do not think that Hackett should be fired in the middle of the season, for several reasons, but are ranting against him as hard as anyone who (IMO foolishly) does.

 

I also think, have stated, as others like Alaska Darin have, that this is as much a Marrone problem as a Hackett problem. And that it wouldn't help at all to fire Hackett, it may make it worse because Marrone would then take over calling plays.

 

There is also a huge faction, again including myself, who are much more pissed about the strategy of groupings and formations and players on the field than the amount of runs, or specific play calls.

I have no idea what the GM is thinking. Perhaps he thinks the Bills are in perfect position to make a strong run at the division title & playoffs.

 

Whaley has had ample opportunity to fix the OG situation for the last two off seasons, and now throughout this season until the trade deadline ends. nada, zip, zilch, nothing. We already know Pears will fall on his face against the better teams, and Pears at RG is a disaster.

 

I think Marrone is just a big of a problem as Hackett because he is the one that went forward this year with the O line situation. I recently noticed that Marrone is on the sidelines with a cheat sheet, and putting it up to his mouth with the offense on the field. So perhaps he is the one who called all those ineffective run, run, pass plays?

 

I dunno about firing anyone at this time, and I don't know what possible change the team could make unless its picking up some better OG's, and that might just make their current games plan workable

 

The only thing that worries me is that these offensive coaches will be back next year, and we fans will need to endure more of the same frustration from the offense, and more losing.

 

So what are we doing right now, one game back in the division? With road wins against playoff teams. Are we not contending? Are we not winning?

 

Unrealistic expectations. That's all this is. Andy Reid has his team contending. They still played a bad game and lost to the Titans. They probably won't split with the Broncos. Are they not playoff contenders? The Pats squeaked by the Raiders and got blown out by KC. Are they contenders? This isn't the Denver offense, we don't have a HoF or even a franchise QB. What did you expect? 30 PPG, out dueling Brady 48-41?

 

With all the complaining about the OC, you'd think we're 3-5, and are winning games with 10 field goals. We're not.

 

Also, can we take a step back with your post. All offseason, you complained about the O-line. You said we'll flounder until we adequately address the OG situation. Now, you're saying is all we need is a top-offensive staff? Or we need both to contend? Hmm, just some All-pro guards and a Hall of Fame coaching staff to contend for the division title. We must be super talented!

With road wins against what playoff teams? What are you talking about? The Bills were soundly beaten by last years playoff teams in the Chargers, and Patriots.

 

In case you missed it. The type of offense this team is putting on the field is unsustainable in winning games against good teams.

[NoSaint]

 

I don't really know how they would be different, but I think for the most part, all discussions of the Bills offense, insofar as what it is now, or will be going forward, should only include the four Orton games. it's a whole different animal, even if 90% of its parts are the same.

 

id guess yesterday wasnt tooooo far removed. the plays per drive had to be just about last. even the successful drives were quick hits. yardage wasnt great but the two hits to sammy probably had them middle of the pack

Edited October 27, 2014 by NoSaint

[FireChan]

I have no idea what the GM is thinking. Perhaps he thinks the Bills are in perfect position to make a strong run at the division title & playoffs.

 

Whaley has had ample opportunity to fix the OG situation for the last two off seasons, and now throughout this season until the trade deadline ends. nada, zip, zilch, nothing. We already know Pears will fall on his face against the better teams, and Pears at RG is a disaster.

 

I think Marrone is just a big of a problem as Hackett because he is the one that went forward this year with the O line situation. I recently noticed that Marrone is on the sidelines with a cheat sheet, and putting it up to his mouth with the offense on the field. So perhaps he is the one who called all those ineffective run, run, pass plays?

 

I dunno about firing anyone at this time, and I don't know what possible change the team could make unless its picking up some better OG's, and that might just make their current games plan workable

 

The only thing that worries me is that these offensive coaches will be back next year, and we fans will need to endure more of the same frustration from the offense, and more losing.

 

With road wins against what playoff teams? What are you talking about? The Bills were soundly beaten by last years playoff teams in the Chargers, and Patriots.

 

In case you missed it. The type of offense this team is putting on the field is unsustainable in winning games against good teams.

 

Detroit is a playoff contender. The Pats were soundly bested by the Dolphins (ha!) and the Chiefs.

 

I really hope we don't have to endure more 5-3 type of losing. It's the worst kind.

Edited October 27, 2014 by FireChan

[#34fan]

I've come to the conclusion that the generally poor play-calling is just a symptom of an overall offensive strategy that Hackett/Marrone have in place. I remember them banging the "analytics" drum a while back, and this is what they came up with.

I could easily see them looking at NFL games and concluding that in order to win, the first step is to not get blown out. If you can keep a game close, even mediocre teams will be in position to win games in the 4th quarter. The logic would then be to avoid turnovers (especially pick-6 INTs) and win the field position battle.

Even though this makes sense, I think our current team does not fit well with this strategy. Our offense is more of a quick-strike type than a grind-it-down-the-field type. Our QB is going to throw picks, our O-line will get a bunch of holding penalties, so we need a strategy that allows the offense more chances at big plays to offset the mistakes. I think.

 

Agreed.

 

It's a "walking dead" offense... Slow, lifeless, and UGLY as hell... We creep up on teams and take bites wherever we can... I get it... It makes perfect sense except for one thing. Good teams shoot for the head early... They're not going to wait until you're on top of them to knock your block off. Good offenses target the top of your D as well... YOU NEED TO SCORE TO KEEP GOING. -Television zombies keep walking in circles, or banging into the same wall until feeding time... This is Hackett's offense in a nutshell.

 

Yesterday's Jets were the dumb teenage victims in a BAD horror flick. They did everything they could to get eaten by the slow, lumbering "walkers" they could have easily escaped.

 

The zombie offense worked on the doomed, hapless, Jets yesterday. Against a real opponent, however, you'd just end up looking DEAD out there.. STUDY FILM Mr. Hackett.. And by "film" I mean Season 1 of "The Walking Dead"

[JohnC]

I started a thread last week that I expect the Bills' offense to improve significantly from this point forward. Some interpreted that as meaning against the Jets yesterday, but I was really talking about the 2nd half of the season.

 

That said, criticizing Hackett for an overly conservative gameplan in the 2nd half yesterday is somewhat foolish, in my opinion. The Bills' defense was stifling; without Vick showing shades of his dog killer persona running with the football I doubt New Jersey would have scored more than three points. The "run-run-pass" pattern is predictable, but also guarantees you'll take some time off the clock in a game you're simply trying to end. Orton took a number of big hits and exposing him further wouldn't have made sense. When they needed to make plays in the passing game they did -- with tremendous success.

 

The time is right for the entire staff to evaluate their successes and failures over the first half of the season, and put this offense into high gear starting with the Chefs.

 

You are astute!

[bobobonators]

I think there is likely a huge faction of posters in this thread, including myself, who do not think that Hackett should be fired in the middle of the season, for several reasons, but are ranting against him as hard as anyone who (IMO foolishly) does.

 

I also think, have stated, as others like Alaska Darin have, that this is as much a Marrone problem as a Hackett problem. And that it wouldn't help at all to fire Hackett, it may make it worse because Marrone would then take over calling plays.

 

There is also a huge faction, again including myself, who are much more pissed about the strategy of groupings and formations and players on the field than the amount of runs, or specific play calls.

 

I'm on board with all of this. Don't want him fired right now - let the season play out. He needs to step up his game though, IMO. No excuses now w/o a young QB - there's no built in excuse to hold back complexity.

[Kelly the Dog]

I have no idea what the GM is thinking. Perhaps he thinks the Bills are in perfect position to make a strong run at the division title & playoffs.

 

Whaley has had ample opportunity to fix the OG situation for the last two off seasons, and now throughout this season until the trade deadline ends. nada, zip, zilch, nothing. We already know Pears will fall on his face against the better teams, and Pears at RG is a disaster.

 

I think Marrone is just a big of a problem as Hackett because he is the one that went forward this year with the O line situation. I recently noticed that Marrone is on the sidelines with a cheat sheet, and putting it up to his mouth with the offense on the field. So perhaps he is the one who called all those ineffective run, run, pass plays?

 

I dunno about firing anyone at this time, and I don't know what possible change the team could make unless its picking up some better OG's, and that might just make their current games plan workable

 

The only thing that worries me is that these offensive coaches will be back next year, and we fans will need to endure more of the same frustration from the offense, and more losing.

I have a theory that at first, of course, Marrone and Whaley were totally on the same page on most things. It's an impossibility for any two guys, let alone guys at the top levels of the NFL with huge egos to agree on everything. but for the most part they liked each other, agreed for the most part on philosophy, and had a working partnership. Over time, of course they will eventually violently disagree on some stuff. It's inevitable.

 

Concurrently, I think that Whaley is 100% responsible for the draft picks and FA on the team, and building the roster, as a solid G should be, but that he has hours and hours of conversations, and talks with Marrone at length every single day about players and what each other thinks of them, as a personnel guy and as a coach. And my theory is, that the only position that Whaley acquiesces to Marrone is the OL. He throws Marrone that bone. Because there is zero chance in hell that Marrone thinks Whaley knows more about the abilities of OL players than Marrone does.

 

I'm not sure if that is true, but I feel strongly about it. It's hard for me to imagine Marrone thinking all these guys suck that Whaley is bringing in. It's easy for me to imagine that Marrone is bullheaded and says "I know I can do stuff with player A or player B."

 

And I like Marrone, for the most part.

[thewildrabbit]

Agreed.

 

It's a "walking dead" offense... Slow, lifeless, and UGLY as hell... We creep up on teams and take bites wherever we can... I get it... It makes perfect sense except for one thing. Good teams shoot for the head early... They're not going to wait until you're on top of them to knock your block off. Good offenses target the top of your D as well... YOU NEED TO SCORE TO KEEP GOING. -Television zombies keep walking in circles, or banging into the same wall until feeding time... This is Hackett's offense in a nutshell.

 

Yesterday's Jets were the dumb teenage victims in a BAD horror flick. They did everything they could to get eaten by the slow, lumbering "walkers" they could have easily escaped.

 

The zombie offense worked on the doomed, hapless, Jets yesterday. Against a real opponent, however, you'd just end up looking DEAD out there.. STUDY FILM Mr. Hackett.. And by "film" I mean Season 1 of "The Walking Dead"

Great nickname, and very appropriate Hackett's Zombie offense. I like it.