Hackett is bad, like very bad

[The Big Cat]

Exactly. If you spread it out, they HAVE to send more out to cover those guys. If they don't, it's pitch and catch for 6-7 yard gains well before a pass rusher can get there.

 

If it were this easy, everyone would do it.

[Cash]

The incorrect assumption you continue to make is to assume that spreading the field puts the O-Line on an island. It does not. It makes their job easier by giving them less people to block. Until you figure that part of it out, the rest of what Kelly and folks are saying will continue to go over your head.

 

One of the main problems with our O-line seems to be confusion. I.e., we let a lot of free rushers in on stunts, delayed rushes, or Pettine-style blitzes where the pressure is disguised. It doesn't seem like the O-line is getting beat by 1-on-1 pass rush moves nearly as much as just not blocking the right guy(s). So I do wonder if spreading things out more might make it harder for opposing defenses to confuse our line? Theoretically, it should move a couple defenders away from the ball, and make their blitzes slower to develop.

[Kelly the Dog]

When did I say that?

 

And why do we so fondly remember the spread we hated when Chan used it?

Change this around. Tell me what advantage you have seen in the last three games we have played with Lee Smith and Frank Summers on the field most of the time. The WRs often bunched near the line. Have we blocked better? Have we run better? have we protected Orton better? Have we got the ball to our playmakers in open space more?

[K-9]

Because we can't block and because until three weeks ago, we didn't have anyone under center reliable enough to make those pre-snap reads. May be it will be phased in? Who knows? But the OLine is certainly not equipped to stay on an island.

 

It's really that simple and I think Hackett is painfully aware of this. For all the talk about getting "safeties out of the box" or "getting LBs off the field" the simple fact is that NONE of that does anything to remove the most immediate threats to your passing game: the front four of the opposing team that has ROUTINELY whipped our line off the snap and ROUTINELY wins battles at the point of attack.

 

Since the first series of the SD game, we've seen the EXACT same stunting schemes by every DLine since and our OL, IN SPITE OF KNOWING IT'S COMING and being coached to counter the threat, just doesn't have the ability to block it consistently. We are getting whipped at the LOS and as much we'd like to think spreading out our sets would open up the offense, and I agree it WOULD with different OL personnel, it would be worse if the OL were isolated and defenses had more room to play their games.

 

My favorite base formation is the 1RB, 1TE, 3WR spread offense with a QB that knows how to exploit the mismatches it can present. But it hinges on 5 guys up front that can beat their man one on one. Right now we have 3 OLmen (LG, RG, RT) that are getting their asses handed to them on a regular basis. Asking a QB to operate a spread under that reality is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

If it were this easy, everyone would do it.

EJ could not do it. Orton can. It's his strength. You play to your players strengths. He can read defenses pre-snap and he can make quick decisions and he can deliver strikes to guys on the run. That was EJ's greatest deficiency. He was young, slow, and inaccurate.

 

It's really that simple and I think Hackett is painfully aware of this. For all the talk about getting "safeties out of the box" or "getting LBs off the field" the simple fact is that NONE of that does anything to remove the most immediate threats to your passing game: the front four of the opposing team that has ROUTINELY whipped our line off the snap and ROUTINELY wins battles at the point of attack.

 

Since the first series of the SD game, we've seen the EXACT same stunting schemes by every DLine since and our OL, IN SPITE OF KNOWING IT'S COMING and being coached to counter the threat, just doesn't have the ability to block it consistently. We are getting whipped at the LOS and as much we'd like to think spreading out our sets would open up the offense, and I agree it WOULD with different OL personnel, it would be worse if the OL were isolated and defenses had more room to play their games.

 

My favorite base formation is the 1RB, 1TE, 3WR spread offense with a QB that knows how to exploit the mismatches it can present. But it hinges on 5 guys up front that can beat their man one on one. Right now we have 3 OLmen (LG, RG, RT) that are getting their asses handed to them on a regular basis. Asking a QB to operate a spread under that reality is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Then you throw the ball away and try again the next play. Or you run bubble screens and quick slants. They don't get burnt every play. They get burnt way too much. More than half the plays they give him plenty of time.

 

The SD game doesn't count because EJ was in.

[The Big Cat]

Change this around. Tell me what advantage you have seen in the last three games we have played with Lee Smith and Frank Summers on the field most of the time. The WRs often bunched near the line. Have we blocked better? Have we run better? have we protected Orton better? Have we got the ball to our playmakers in open space more?

 

In Orton's three starts we've played three of the top 10 sack defenses in the league.

 

Also, you're analyzing something that had middling success by comparing it to something which you assume would have success while putting the onus on me to prove to you that the reality you've created that doesn't exist is inferior.

[DC Greg]

If it were this easy, everyone would do it.

 

Almost everyone DOES DO IT. Significantly more than the bills. You see far more 3 and 4 WR sets than you do double tight ends or I formation backs. Of course it can't be every play. The point is we almost NEVER do it, and I, for one, think we should do it more.

[The Big Cat]

EJ could not do it. Orton can. It's his strength. You play to your players strengths. He can read defenses pre-snap and he can make quick decisions and he can deliver strikes to guys on the run. That was EJ's greatest deficiency. He was young, slow, and inaccurate.

 

 

Then you throw the ball away and try again the next play. Or you run bubble screens and quick slants. They don't get burnt every play. They get burnt way too much. More than half the plays they give him plenty of time.

 

The SD game doesn't count because EJ was in.

 

You're calling for a complete revamp of the offense in a three week period to account for a guy who wasn't in training camp. Just so we're clear on the ask.

[K-9]

Exactly. If you spread it out, they HAVE to send more out to cover those guys. If they don't, it's pitch and catch for 6-7 yard gains well before a pass rusher can get there.

 

That's all well and good but sending out more cover guys does nothing to remove the DLmen that are whipping our OL with regularity. Pitch and catch sounds so easy; just a two step drop and BINGO! But what happens when you're not in a favorable down and distance, and a 6-7 yard gain won't cut it?

 

Like I've been saying, it all sound good and I'd love to see it myself, but I can see why it's a tall order.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

In Orton's three starts we've played three of the top 10 sack defenses in the league.

 

Also, you're analyzing something that had middling success by comparing it to something which you assume would have success while putting the onus on me to prove to you that the reality you've created that doesn't exist is inferior.

I explained ten times and gave specific examples of why I think it would work better and why what we are doing does not work as well. You asked me a question and I answered it, which you then ignored. Then I asked you a question.

[The Big Cat]

Almost everyone DOES DO IT. Significantly more than the bills. You see far more 3 and 4 WR sets than you do double tight ends or I formation backs. Of course it can't be every play. The point is we almost NEVER do it, and I, for one, think we should do it more.

 

Okay, well again, you've decided that an unseen scenario is superior to what we have seen. And I maintain that our OLine's inconsistency (putting it nicely) is something you're severely overlooking.

 

I explained ten times and gave specific examples of why I think it would work better and why what we are doing does not work as well. You asked me a question and I answered it, which you then ignored. Then I asked you a question.

 

I haven't ignored it. K-9 and I are saying the exact same thing. Our OLine can't block the guy in front of them. They need all the help the can get JUST to keep their own guy out of the backfield. Letting the go one-on-one while Orton plays dink and dunk is a recipe for disaster.

[Kelly the Dog]

You're calling for a complete revamp of the offense in a three week period to account for a guy who wasn't in training camp. Just so we're clear on the ask.

No I am not at all, and I already answered that question.

 

It's in every team's including ours already. It's what we did on the last series and we do sporadically throughout the game. Marrone and Hackett brag about having all kinds of offenses including this in their playbook. It doesn't take a complete revamp in any way whatsoever. It's putting plays you already practice into the game plan and scrapping ones that don't work.

[K-9]

One of the main problems with our O-line seems to be confusion. I.e., we let a lot of free rushers in on stunts, delayed rushes, or Pettine-style blitzes where the pressure is disguised. It doesn't seem like the O-line is getting beat by 1-on-1 pass rush moves nearly as much as just not blocking the right guy(s). So I do wonder if spreading things out more might make it harder for opposing defenses to confuse our line? Theoretically, it should move a couple defenders away from the ball, and make their blitzes slower to develop.

 

I see our RG, LG, and LT getting beat one on one consistently at the POA. And you're right about the stunts, they know it's coming and don't have the simple athleticism to match it. It's ugly to watch.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

Okay, well again, you've decided that an unseen scenario is superior to what we have seen. And I maintain that our OLine's inconsistency (putting it nicely) is something you're severely overlooking.

 

 

 

I haven't ignored it. K-9 and I are saying the exact same thing. Our OLine can't block the guy in front of them. They need all the help the can get JUST to keep their own guy out of the backfield. Letting the go one-on-one while Orton plays dink and dunk is a recipe for disaster.

They don't get killed every play. He has plenty of time to throw throughout the whole game. They just break down on too many plays.

[DC Greg]

That's all well and good but sending out more cover guys does nothing to remove the DLmen that are whipping our OL with regularity. Pitch and catch sounds so easy; just a two step drop and BINGO! But what happens when you're not in a favorable down and distance, and a 6-7 yard gain won't cut it?

 

Like I've been saying, it all sound good and I'd love to see it myself, but I can see why it's a tall order.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I'm oversimplifying for the sake of brevity. I think we should spread it out MORE OFTEN. Not every play. I think a lot of what our O does can be successful, has been successful, and would be even more successful if we incorporated even 15% more West Coast style especially on first and second down Open running lanes by taking guys out of the box, create the easier matchups with linebackers on slot receivers while linebackers are in on 1 and 2 down before they go to nickel/dime in 2 or 3 and long. I'm not saying run five wides every play. Orton would be a corpse. But there are situations, especially early down situations, where spreading the field looks like it could be a more effective position for out O.

[Kelly the Dog]

And yes, Mr. Cat, you ignored the answer to your question, which was "Can orton do it?" And the answer is, it's his best quality.

 

I'm oversimplifying for the sake of brevity. I think we should spread it out MORE OFTEN. Not every play. I think a lot of what our O does can be successful, has been successful, and would be even more successful if we incorporated even 15% more West Coast style especially on first and second down Open running lanes by taking guys out of the box, create the easier matchups with linebackers on slot receivers while linebackers are in on 1 and 2 down before they go to nickel/dime in 2 or 3 and long. I'm not saying run five wides every play. Orton would be a corpse. But there are situations, especially early down situations, where spreading the field looks like it could be a more effective position for out O.

Good post. I should have said that as well. it's not every play I think they should have 3-4 WR, nor do I think they should naver have 2-3 TEs. Of course they should. It's the basic philosophy and majority of the plays I am talking about.

[The Big Cat]

No I am not at all, and I already answered that question.

 

It's in every team's including ours already. It's what we did on the last series and we do sporadically throughout the game. Marrone and Hackett brag about having all kinds of offenses including this in their playbook. It doesn't take a complete revamp in any way whatsoever. It's putting plays you already practice into the game plan and scrapping ones that don't work.

I'm oversimplifying for the sake of brevity. I think we should spread it out MORE OFTEN. Not every play. I think a lot of what our O does can be successful, has been successful, and would be even more successful if we incorporated even 15% more West Coast style especially on first and second down Open running lanes by taking guys out of the box, create the easier matchups with linebackers on slot receivers while linebackers are in on 1 and 2 down before they go to nickel/dime in 2 or 3 and long. I'm not saying run five wides every play. Orton would be a corpse. But there are situations, especially early down situations, where spreading the field looks like it could be a more effective position for out O.

 

Okay, think of a percentage you think the Bills SHOULD run these formations, then try and guess what the actual number is. I'm curious what your perception is, and I'll gladly do the research to determine what the numbers really are.

 

I also think the offense is a state of evolution. I think it's clear that Orton gives them WAY more flexiblity than EJ ever did, I HOPE Brown is better suited to run for three to five yards on first down like CJ was supposed to and I think we're going to see a complete re-shuffling of the OLine at the bye.

 

So again, I think most of these critiques of Hackett are entirely premature and woefully oblivious to the personnel limitations he's faced the entire time he's been in Buffalo.

[K-9]

EJ could not do it. Orton can. It's his strength. You play to your players strengths. He can read defenses pre-snap and he can make quick decisions and he can deliver strikes to guys on the run. That was EJ's greatest deficiency. He was young, slow, and inaccurate.

 

 

Then you throw the ball away and try again the next play. Or you run bubble screens and quick slants. They don't get burnt every play. They get burnt way too much. More than half the plays they give him plenty of time.

 

The SD game doesn't count because EJ was in.

 

The SD game doesn't count? That game has served as the blueprint for every DC since. EJ or no EJ. Thank God Orton was playing Sunday because he took advantage of those middle gap blitzes on the last drive, but man, he paid the price.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[The Big Cat]

And yes, Mr. Cat, you ignored the answer to your question, which was "Can orton do it?" And the answer is, it's his best quality.

 

 

Good post. I should have said that as well. it's not every play I think they should have 3-4 WR, nor do I think they should naver have 2-3 TEs. Of course they should. It's the basic philosophy and majority of the plays I am talking about.

 

I honestly don't know what you're basing that on and I don't know enough to argue with you about it. But you seem too eager to glom to it as a truth when it makes your point. Just being honest.

Edited October 21, 2014 by The Big Cat

[DC Greg]

Okay, well again, you've decided that an unseen scenario is superior to what we have seen. And I maintain that our OLine's inconsistency (putting it nicely) is something you're severely overlooking.

 

 

 

I haven't ignored it. K-9 and I are saying the exact same thing. Our OLine can't block the guy in front of them. They need all the help the can get JUST to keep their own guy out of the backfield. Letting the go one-on-one while Orton plays dink and dunk is a recipe for disaster.

 

My "unseen scenario," is also known as the West Coast offense, which, again, almost every successful NFL offense utilizes more than the Bills do in the NFL. This big scary concept is actually remarkably simple. Any receiver, player, coach in the NFL who knows a route tree can run it. They could add in these plays in pregame and they could run it. The trick is using it successfully in the best scenarios and situations, especially early downs.

 

I firmly believe it would help our line, rather than expose it, if used effectively.