GunnerBill Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) My problem with Hackett is less the individual play calling - although the swing pass to Dixon, run Dixon up the gut, ask Dixon to be the key blocker with the QB in shotgun set of 3 calls was arguably the most befuddling I have seen in my years watching the Bills - my issue with him is the offensive concepts. What is the identity of the Buffalo Bills offense?? I don't think Hackett knows, or if he does he isn't sticking to it in his play calling. All of a sudden two weeks ago these 3 tight end, tight bunch sets came into being... it's like he has an idea it forms a major part of the gameplan for 3 weeks then it's gone to be replaced by something else. The best offensive coordinators could tell you what the basis of the scheme they run is in 1 sentence. If Hackett believe he can do that the evidence hasn't been on display through 7 weeks. I accept you put different game plans in for different opponents each week.... I accept that when you switch QBs there are some things you need to change, but it is all round badly conceptualised and there is no identity. Edited October 20, 2014 by GunnerBill
Deranged Rhino Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 More than play-calling, it is the groupings, philosophy and system that is the bigger and more troubling problem. This team's strengths are its 4-5 playmaking WRs, its 4 playmaking RBs, and now, its gunslinger veteran QB. Its glaring weaknesses are its interior line, power running game, and TEs. There are ten reasons to spread the field, put 3-4 WRs out there with 1-2 backs, scrap the 2-3 TE sets and let the veteran QB spread the ball around quickly. There are ten reasons not to play 2-3 TEs, run up the middle, be conservative predictable, and keep a lot of your talent on the bench. Furthermore, Hackett and Marrone are going to be rewarding themselves for bad behavior because, for example, the first TD to Watkins was a Three TE formation. And we won the game. They will ignore that the play worked because they simply saw a single guy on Watkins and threw it to him deep because he beat the guy cleanly off the line, and that they won because they scrapped the stupid philosophy and let (were forced into) Orton winging it. I stuck up for Hackett for a long time, not because I thought he was good, but because I thought no one could have succeeded in the situation he was put in last year. It wasn't fair to say he sucked. In the first two games this year, and even in the two losses with EJ, it wasn't fair to simultaneously say that there were a dozen wide open plays on the field that weren't made by EJ and then say that the playcalling sucked. But the line has gotten progressively worse. They stopped playing MWilliams. They increasingly play 2-3 TE sets. The other teams knowing this are increasingly tightening the box and blitzing, which we often don't even have hot reads for. And for three games in a row the offensive game plan and philosophy has been increasingly, glaringly bad. That is both Marrone and Hackett's fault, and it was abysmal yesterday.
GunnerBill Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 More than play-calling, it is the groupings, philosophy and system that is the bigger and more troubling problem. This team's strengths are its 4-5 playmaking WRs, its 4 playmaking RBs, and now, its gunslinger veteran QB. Its glaring weaknesses are its interior line, power running game, and TEs. There are ten reasons to spread the field, put 3-4 WRs out there with 1-2 backs, scrap the 2-3 TE sets and let the veteran QB spread the ball around quickly. There are ten reasons not to play 2-3 TEs, run up the middle, be conservative predictable, and keep a lot of your talent on the bench. Furthermore, Hackett and Marrone are going to be rewarding themselves for bad behavior because, for example, the first TD to Watkins was a Three TE formation. And we won the game. They will ignore that the play worked because they simply saw a single guy on Watkins and threw it to him deep because he beat the guy cleanly off the line, and that they won because they scrapped the stupid philosophy and let (were forced into) Orton winging it. I stuck up for Hackett for a long time, not because I thought he was good, but because I thought no one could have succeeded in the situation he was put in last year. It wasn't fair to say he sucked. In the first two games this year, and even in the two losses with EJ, it wasn't fair to simultaneously say that there were a dozen wide open plays on the field that weren't made by EJ and then say that the playcalling sucked. But the line has gotten progressively worse. They stopped playing MWilliams. They increasingly play 2-3 TE sets. The other teams knowing this are increasingly tightening the box and blitzing, which we often don't even have hot reads for. And for three games in a row the offensive game plan and philosophy has been increasingly, glaringly bad. That is both Marrone and Hackett's fault, and it was abysmal yesterday. You posted this whilst I was writing my post. Would have saved me a job had I seen this first. Perfectly summed up.
John from Riverside Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 The people who say Hackett sucks are the same ones who used the, "Orton was benched for Tebow" logic. Uninformed. The guy has done a good job. Perfect? No. But he isn't making these guys fumble. Bills' offense is far better than it was before Hackett came along. And I love the "370 yards of offense is normal now," argument. No it's not. It's just not. Just like 1,000 yards rushing/season is the norm ... no, it's not. your not gonna get many that will agree with you on this Gug
K-9 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 ... There are ten reasons to spread the field, put 3-4 WRs out there with 1-2 backs, scrap the 2-3 TE sets and let the veteran QB spread the ball around quickly. There's the rub though. Spreading the field requires an OLine that can hold the point of attack to be effective consistently. I don't think Hackett trusts that group at all. Unless he goes strictly to a two-step drop and get rid of it philosophy, I can't see him spreading them out much. GO BILLS!!!
Clippers of Nfl Posted October 20, 2014 Author Posted October 20, 2014 The people who say Hackett sucks are the same ones who used the, "Orton was benched for Tebow" logic. Uninformed. The guy has done a good job. Perfect? No. But he isn't making these guys fumble. Bills' offense is far better than it was before Hackett came along. And I love the "370 yards of offense is normal now," argument. No it's not. It's just not. Just like 1,000 yards rushing/season is the norm ... no, it's not. It probably is not. But the rules do favor the offense now. You cant deny that.
Gray Beard Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 You gotta love that after Spiller was hurt, he split Boobie out for a screen or a dump off in the flat. Let's run Spiller's play without Spiller! Oh the irony,
Kelly the Dog Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 There's the rub though. Spreading the field requires an OLine that can hold the point of attack to be effective consistently. I don't think Hackett trusts that group at all. Unless he goes strictly to a two-step drop and get rid of it philosophy, I can't see him spreading them out much. GO BILLS!!! I don't think so. Because it gets both safeties out of the box, and it takes 1-2 linebackers off the field and replaced by CBs. Otherwise in 2 seconds you can kill the defense. It was what Chan did to mask the bad line. It's what EJ could probably not take advantage of, but plays right into Orton's biggest strength, which is dropping back and gunning the ball on a slant or out pattern and hitting him on the numbers. If they blitz, the veteran has a hot read or spot to hit the vacated area. If they rush four we have five guys against them. If they stay back, our skill guys need to beat their skill guys and I like our chances. We get swings and screens out into the open. It's high school stuff for the most part.
Clippers of Nfl Posted October 20, 2014 Author Posted October 20, 2014 When your top two RBs get injured and your QB is getting his ass handed to him every other passing play, that's how. GO BILLS!!! Very funny K9. That's the only play from the hundreds of plays to call. Boobie up the middle. Next play. Boobie up the middle. And again Boobie up the middle. I didnt know the bills had only 1 running play????? Keep defending him you so desire. As for me, Hacket sucks.
jimmy10 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Opposing defenses HATE Nate Hackett for using this one weird trick! Click here to learn more! [bikinigirl.jpg]
billsfan_34 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 And yet in 23 professional outings he's coached EJ Manuel, Jeff Tuel (consolation), Kyle Orton and Thad Lewis to victories. And what about all the losses?
The Wiz Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 And yet in 23 professional outings he's coached EJ Manuel, Jeff Tuel (consolation), Kyle Orton and Thad Lewis to victories. Tuel never won a game as a starter or replacement and in 23 outings he is 10/23. Also kind of funny to note how we have won games on last minute drives and play changes where he wasn't involved. I don't think he is the reason the offense is questionable (most of that falls on the OLine) but I would be curious to see what would happen if he had an OLine that could keep the QB free for 4 seconds.
K-9 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Very funny K9. That's the only play from the hundreds of plays to call. Boobie up the middle. Next play. Boobie up the middle. And again Boobie up the middle. I didnt know the bills had only 1 running play????? Keep defending him you so desire. As for me, Hacket sucks. I don't think I was defending him at all and I don't think I was advocating using the same play over and over, either. I just don't happen to think we can let Orton drop back every play behind this line, I think Hacket knows this also, and that's why I think he'll keep trying to maintain some semblance of a running game. Unfortunately, Boobie was the only RB we had to do it with yesterday. GO BILLS!!!
Kelly the Dog Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I don't think I was defending him at all and I don't think I was advocating using the same play over and over, either. I just don't happen to think we can let Orton drop back every play behind this line, I think Hacket knows this also, and that's why I think he'll keep trying to maintain some semblance of a running game. Unfortunately, Boobie was the only RB we had to do it with yesterday. GO BILLS!!! The K Gun was a run offense. yes, we had a great OL and they could blow holes in the DL. But the reason offenses often work like that is when you have backs that can make one guy miss. And there isn't LBs and Safeties up in your face every play because 2-3 TEs are on the field as well as a FB. Frank Summers and Lee Smith and Chris Gragg should not be on the field instead of MWilliams, Goodwin and Hogan.
K-9 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I don't think so. Because it gets both safeties out of the box, and it takes 1-2 linebackers off the field and replaced by CBs. Otherwise in 2 seconds you can kill the defense. It was what Chan did to mask the bad line. It's what EJ could probably not take advantage of, but plays right into Orton's biggest strength, which is dropping back and gunning the ball on a slant or out pattern and hitting him on the numbers. If they blitz, the veteran has a hot read or spot to hit the vacated area. If they rush four we have five guys against them. If they stay back, our skill guys need to beat their skill guys and I like our chances. We get swings and screens out into the open. It's high school stuff for the most part. That's all well and good in theory but it's really not high school stuff for the most part. If we had a better OLine I would LOVE to see a 11 personnel with 3 WRs, spreading out as our base formation, especially with Goodwin's speed. But spread formations put a lot of pressure on the OL and I don't think Hackett trusts what he has up front. I'm certainly not against it, but I see reasons why it's risky with our group. GO BILLS!!! The K Gun was a run offense. yes, we had a great OL and they could blow holes in the DL. But the reason offenses often work like that is when you have backs that can make one guy miss. And there isn't LBs and Safeties up in your face every play because 2-3 TEs are on the field as well as a FB. Frank Summers and Lee Smith and Chris Gragg should not be on the field instead of MWilliams, Goodwin and Hogan. Yes, the K Gun was a running offense behind one of the greatest OLs in league history. TT was like Murray is today, often getting 4 yards before getting touched. Our OL just can't hold the POA for ANY of that to be possible at the moment. GO BILLS!!!
Alphadawg7 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) And yet in 23 professional outings he's coached EJ Manuel, Jeff Tuel (consolation), Kyle Orton and Thad Lewis to victories. Or maybe the players on the WHOLE team won those games for the coaching. I am on this wagon...FIRE HACKETT. He has been terrible in just about every way. He is predictable, forces square pegs into round holes, doesn't build around the personnel and instead forces his offense, doesn't game plan around the weaknesses of the opponent, and is a terrible at adjusting at half time. Edited October 20, 2014 by Alphadawg7
Kelly the Dog Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 That's all well and good in theory but it's really not high school stuff for the most part. If we had a better OLine I would LOVE to see a 11 personnel with 3 WRs, spreading out as our base formation, especially with Goodwin's speed. But spread formations put a lot of pressure on the OL and I don't think Hackett trusts what he has up front. I'm certainly not against it, but I see reasons why it's risky with our group. GO BILLS!!! If they suck so bad, it's more risky IMO to put more guys in front of them. It's more dumb to run right at them with 8 guys there. It's easier to throw quick slants and outs and fly patterns when there are 4-5 options instead of 2. It's easier for WR to look for and catch the ball than Lee Smith or Chris Gragg. Frank Summers is mostly worthless. Every fourth play he makes a good block. This is Just. Plain. Stupid.
stony Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 370 yards is normal now. Dbs almost have to let the wrs catch the ball or the flag will drop. Using Cj correctly would be 3-4 screens per game. 3-4 slot receptions per game. 3-4 bunch wr formations (giving the ball to cj 1-2 times) Left sweeps 3-4 times per game. Right sweeps 3-4 times. Straight up the middle. MAXIMUM TWICE. Power formation= ZERO. It's not that hard. I guarantee Denver, San Diego, Philly, New orleans would be using him right. Please dont defend him Meh. Maybe, maybe not. Monte Ball was non-existent before his injury and SD and NO saw it fit to get rid of their CJ-type back with Sproles. At what point do you ask yourself, is he worth creating a whole offense over? Hackett can't teach CJ to see daylight at this point in his career.
Bubba Gump Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Just look what Hackett has done to three QBs in less than two years. Teul went from backup to practice squad. Lewis went from backup to out of the league. Manuel went from starter to backup. Not saying it's all Hacketts fault as there is also a QB coach, the overall quality of the QB to begin with and a piss poor offensive line.. But his play calling hasn't done them any favors either. Edited October 20, 2014 by Not Again
K-9 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 If they suck so bad, it's more risky IMO to put more guys in front of them. It's more dumb to run right at them with 8 guys there. It's easier to throw quick slants and outs and fly patterns when there are 4-5 options instead of 2. It's easier for WR to look for and catch the ball than Lee Smith or Chris Gragg. Frank Summers is mostly worthless. Every fourth play he makes a good block. This is Just. Plain. Stupid. Yep, it's all so simple right up until the time it isn't simple. We agree that we'd like to see spread formations. We disagree that we have the personnel to run it effectively. I'm gonna let it go at that. GO BILLS!!!
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