C.Biscuit97 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 with that logic, shouldn't runners get credit for yards negated by penalty ? Trust me, I've made the same argue with people who hate on Spiller. But it does completely inflate the average. Great offensive mind to only give the ball to a guy once who's capable of a 53 yarder but that's not the point of this thread.
papazoid Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 QBR has been discussed on here before, and I am not a believer. qbr is better than passer rating.
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 qbr is better than passer rating. qbr is better than passer rating. http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/qbr-espns-deeply-flawed-made-for-tv-stat/7978/ The truth is passer rating correlates really well with winning.
BringBackFergy Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 https://v.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/12D86617E11135731777017896960_2bc6d399393.5.1.9732119999884058174.mp4?versionId=34ny6RBD1ugl54dTyUvyjxe2ndrhXpu2
starrymessenger Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 qbr is better than passer rating. Try and tell Aaron Rodgers that.
Big Gun Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I'm happy to get the w's for sure. I just am not impressed by Orton. I am very happy the Bills are 4-3 right now. I just think that EJ could've led the team to the same 2-1 record. This team is winning because of the defense not because of the QB change. Orton is getting the wins and I won't fault him for that (how could I?). Orton also is showing what I already presumed, that he is very limited and will throw ints. If the team keeps winning I will keep celebrating. I don't see Orton as anything other that a stop gap QB (not that there is anything wrong with that). I can't put him on a pedestal as even a better than average QB. I hate to take this stance because I don't want it to come off as bashing the Bills for Orton playing. I'm not and don't want to. I just hope that either EJ has the light go off or there are other plans for next year than Kyle Orton. HEckas I 've said today as well, I'd be just as happy with Orton lighting it up. I would like to win because of the QB not in spite of him. I don't think you have one bit of a good football IQ with that comment.
starrymessenger Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 kyle orton is mediocre (ranked 16th is passer rating). which is a huge improvement over the awful EJ (ranked 30th in passer rating). having said that, for a veteran, orton makes a lot of mental mistakes that lead to big negative plays (sacks, fumbles), as evidenced by his poor QBR rating of rank 28th (EJ was 32nd). it's been awhile since ive seen a QB under pressure, go down so easily as compared to other qb's. I guess you didn't watch Peyton last night. It was like "just put your arms around me Baby".
papazoid Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/qbr-espns-deeply-flawed-made-for-tv-stat/7978/ The truth is passer rating correlates really well with winning. QBR penalizes soft and mentally weak qb's soft as in can't hang on to the ball(fumbles)and goes down with a feather (sacks). mentally weak as in takes a sack instead of an incomplete pass.
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I don't think you have one bit of a good football IQ with that comment. Agreed! Look at facts. Don't just create a narrative to the story.
RyanC883 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I really would like to see how Orton plays with a consistant clean pocket that would be nice! The O line must be fixed ASAP
papazoid Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I guess you didn't watch Peyton last night. It was like "just put your arms around me Baby". manning took 2 sack, orton 6. manning passer rating 157, ortons 95. manning QBR rating 99.4 , orton 43.4 Try and tell Aaron Rodgers that. aaron is ranked 2nd in passer rating and 4th in QBR. both outstanding.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 kyle orton is mediocre (ranked 16th is passer rating). which is a huge improvement over the awful EJ (ranked 30th in passer rating). having said that, for a veteran, orton makes a lot of mental mistakes that lead to big negative plays (sacks, fumbles), as evidenced by his poor QBR rating of rank 28th (EJ was 32nd). it's been awhile since ive seen a QB under pressure, go down so easily as compared to other qb's. I'm curious .... what are the defensive rankings of the teams EJ faced and the defensive rankings of the teams KO faced? clearly Orton is a solid backup, Nothing more.
section122 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I don't think you have one bit of a good football IQ with that comment. Agreed! Look at facts. Don't just create a narrative to the story. I'll play along. The lions scored 7 points on offense. The other 7 were gift wrapped by Orton. The Vikings scored 16 points yesterday. So in Orton's 2 wins the defense has given up 23 points. The defense played out of their minds in the Detroit game and still needed 3 missed fgs for the inept offense to have a chance at the end. I would love to discuss more of my lack of football iq but I need to know where you are coming from to do so. Do you honestly think that it is Kyle Orton winning these games or is the defense?
Donald Duck Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Kyle Orton is the 1st QB the Buffalo Bills have had with a winning record since Bledsoe. The rusty Orton is averaging 300 yards a game, 2-1 as a Bills starter, one coming against the best Defense in the NFL. After the win I open up the Erie Times this morning and get to read two pages of how bad Kyle Orton is despite the wins.(John Dudely) It was enough to cancel my subscription...
papazoid Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I'm curious .... what are the defensive rankings of the teams EJ faced and the defensive rankings of the teams KO faced? without looking, i'd say orton gets credit for a higher degree of difficulty
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Do the Orton Haters realize he is NOT a turnover machine! Check the record don't BS! ] Did you see my post on Orton in his last 3 games??? He has more turnovers (fumbles and INT's), and sacks in 3 games this season than EJ has in 4 games this season.
section122 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Whos the better QB at this point, Ej or Orton? Clearly Orton. Who gives us the better chance to win, EJ or Orton? Clearly Orton. What are we arguing here? Do I think Ortons a long term answer? No. Do I think EJ's a long term answer? No. We should draft a QB this year, but for now Orton is their best option and he's playing fairly well. The biggest problem I have with this team is the stubborn !@#$s we have as coaches and the offensive line play due to the stubborn !@#$s we have as coaches. I'm not sure what we are arguing here because even the people that are "hating" (ops word not mine) Orton most likely agree with almost everything you said. The only thing I can't jump on board with yet is whether not EJ is the long term answer. Orton: quicker release, more accurate, better yardage stats, less points Manuel: more mobility, less turnovers, less sacks, more points It is a pick your poison with both of them. The only thing I will say is we know what Orton is and it is mediocre, this year that might be enough to get it done. We have no idea where Manuel will end up.
bobobonators Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Did you see my post on Orton in his last 3 games??? He has more turnovers (fumbles and INT's), and sacks in 3 games this season than EJ has in 4 games this season. EJ is 1-4 in games where the Bills don't rush for 100yds. Let the Bills rush for 200yds w/ Orton at QB (like they did many times last season) and then lets compare. It's simple: Orton is going to get sacked more b/c he throws more - especially with a horrible O-line. Even with those sacks, this is the most effective passing attack we've had in a long, long time. It's unfortunate that we now can't run the ball. Edited October 20, 2014 by bobobonators
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Do the Orton Haters realize he is NOT a turnover machine! Check the record don't BS! Player % RUNS PASS SACKS FUM INT Fum+Int PLAYS Peyton Manning 4% 411 8669 278 71 222 349 9358 Drew Brees 5% 341 7062 276 80 184 356 7679 Kirk Cousins 5% 14 407 16 6 19 22 437 Matt Ryan 5% 230 3566 172 29 84 201 3968 Brian Hoyer 5% 38 382 21 3 8 24 441 Matthew Stafford 6% 141 2749 140 32 79 172 3030 Andy Dalton 6% 164 1819 104 15 52 119 2087 Carson Palmer 6% 245 4794 248 59 153 307 5287 Tom Brady 6% 447 6832 356 95 136 451 7635 Andrew Luck 6% 155 1499 84 19 34 103 1738 Matt Schaub 6% 183 3181 172 41 84 213 3536 Eli Manning 6% 239 5233 265 81 176 346 5737 Derek Anderson 6% 86 1497 73 28 55 101 1656 Tony Romo 6% 221 3989 225 57 107 282 4435 Josh Freeman 6% 197 2020 111 38 67 149 2328 Cam Newton 7% 402 1681 128 21 45 149 2211 Kyle Orton 7% 113 2389 145 34 62 179 2647 Philip Rivers 7% 271 4338 260 75 107 335 4869 Ryan Fitzpatrick 7% 316 2759 175 53 99 228 3250 Matt Hasselbeck 7% 345 5034 342 63 148 405 5721 Rex Grossman 7% 81 1562 92 32 60 124 1735 Brady Quinn 7% 44 550 41 5 17 46 635 Jay Cutler 7% 309 3573 235 71 119 306 4117 Nick Foles 7% 81 819 55 16 14 71 955 Sam Bradford 7% 97 1760 120 27 38 147 1977 Chad Henne 7% 116 1954 149 17 63 166 2219 Shaun Hill 8% 73 967 65 18 24 83 1105 Joe Flacco 8% 242 3348 230 57 83 287 3820 Jason Campbell 8% 239 2506 169 51 60 220 2914 EJ Manuel 8% 69 437 34 7 12 41 540 Brandon Weeden 8% 39 784 55 12 26 67 878 Trent Edwards 8% 78 929 69 14 30 83 1076 Dan Orlovsky 8% 13 472 29 11 12 40 514 Jake Locker 8% 91 675 55 9 19 64 821 Aaron Rodgers 8% 350 3166 249 46 53 295 3765 David Garrard 8% 380 2281 179 44 54 223 2840 Mark Sanchez 8% 125 1867 126 43 69 169 2118 Colin Kaepernick 8% 206 863 74 19 16 93 1143 Matt Cassel 8% 247 2369 182 47 70 229 2798 Robert Griffin 8% 211 889 72 25 17 97 1172 Colt McCoy 8% 101 715 61 12 20 73 877 John Skelton 8% 42 602 47 11 25 58 691 Ryan Tannehill 8% 111 1290 107 20 35 127 1508 Jon Kitna 9% 313 4442 323 109 165 432 5078 Seneca Wallace 9% 68 788 59 19 19 78 915 Tarvaris Jackson 9% 163 1066 89 24 35 113 1318 Bruce Gradkowski 9% 88 709 53 20 24 73 850 Geno Smith 9% 106 668 58 14 28 72 832 Russell Wilson 9% 228 975 91 23 21 114 1294 Alex Smith 9% 312 2871 251 53 74 304 3434 Terrelle Pryor 9% 93 302 31 7 12 38 426 Mike Glennon 9% 31 558 49 8 12 57 638 Ben Roethlisberger 9% 355 4565 403 73 125 476 5323 Christian Ponder 9% 126 1057 95 20 36 115 1278 Michael Vick 9% 831 3050 290 91 85 381 4171 Josh McCown 10% 157 1405 117 46 49 163 1679 Matt Moore 10% 59 764 66 23 28 89 889 Blaine Gabbert 10% 76 784 74 21 24 95 934 Matt Flynn 11% 59 348 37 10 11 47 444 Kevin Kolb 11% 69 755 77 19 25 96 901 Kellen Clemens 11% 77 620 65 17 20 82 762 Well, that seals it. EJ is 1-4 in games where the Bills don't rush for 100yds. Let the Bills rush for 200yds w/ Orton at QB (like they did many times last season) and then lets compare. It's simple: Orton is going to get sacked more b/c he throws more - especially with a horrible O-line. Even with those sacks, this is the most effective passing attack we've had in a long, long time. It's unfortunate that we now can't run the ball. I am going to get strung up for this, but I think that EJ sells the play action better than Orton does and that this does in fact help with the run game. This, along with running in general, would be one of the few things he does better right now. Orton should be the man -- there is no question. The question is, why does it have to be "haters" vs everyone else? That's no fairer than "fanboys" vs. "realists." Orton is the best QB the Bills have right now, he might always be better than EJ, and he is a flawed QB -- like most anyone who isn't in the top 5-8. His flaws will be exposed at times and so far the team is fortunate to be 2-1 with him, but he has definitely played a big part in the cause for victory and in making it as close as it has been.
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