papazoid Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 kyle orton is mediocre (ranked 16th is passer rating). which is a huge improvement over the awful EJ (ranked 30th in passer rating). having said that, for a veteran, orton makes a lot of mental mistakes that lead to big negative plays (sacks, fumbles), as evidenced by his poor QBR rating of rank 28th (EJ was 32nd). it's been awhile since ive seen a QB under pressure, go down so easily as compared to other qb's.
section122 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I also don't think any of the Orton supporters here are annointing him as the starter beyond this season are they? He is doing okay, I don't think EJ leads us down to win that one yesterday as much as I like the kid, Orton did when everything was against him. 4th and 20.... ball game, possibly season and maybe, ultimately, the HC's job on the line and he fires it 22 yards between two defenders to his tight end. That was some impressive composure and some impressive accuracy. If I am Doug Whaley I am hoping Orton is enough to at least get us to 9-7, praying that we make the play-offs and then I am working on my options at Quarterback for 2015. If Orton saves this season that is a job well done, but he has to play better than this to prove himself the starter even in the medium term (ie. the next 2 years beyond this season). Although I am not a "supporter" (he is the QB of the Bills so I am rooting for his success) I agree with everything in this post. Including the excellent conversion on 4th down but mostly with the second paragraph
xsoldier54 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Again people who keep playing the if only game are simply wrong its football and thats not the way it works Sammy dropped a 1st down pass at the 2 yard line and then we fumbled on 3rd down the very next play . If only sammy doesn't drop that pass we would've scored and would have had a early lead and CJ and Fred wouldn't have been hurt because wouldn't have call the same plays with us being ahead Do you see why you cant assume one thing would have led to another , Turnovers are bad especially in football but then again NOTHING has really worked out the way we thought when Orton took over and now the offense is basically 100% reliant on Orton throwing for nearly 300 yard every game which is not something you would expect of someone7 weeks off the street I have no idea what your response means. What I said was that turnovers are bad and that we need to eliminate them. Isn't that the same thing that you said? The rest of what you said about the offense being 100% reliant on Orton throwing for 300 yards is also related to turnovers. The reason that they threw the ball so much in those games is because they turned the ball over and fell behind. Eliminate the turnovers and you probably do not fall behind and hence you can have a more balanced attack offensively. My point is that the Bills need to cut down on the turnovers in order to have a better chance of winning games. I don't think that can be disputed, it's a pretty basic tenet of playing good football.
GunnerBill Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 The drive in Detroit I think EJ could have done yes. An inaccurate pass pulled in by a circus catch from Sammy. Yesterday? Not so much. That was a proper Quarterback inspired game winning drive. Yes Chandler, Hogan and Sammy helped out, but Orton put some throws on the money.
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 kyle orton is mediocre (ranked 16th is passer rating). which is a huge improvement over the awful EJ (ranked 30th in passer rating). having said that, for a veteran, orton makes a lot of mental mistakes that lead to big negative plays (sacks, fumbles), as evidenced by his poor QBR rating of rank 28th (EJ was 32nd). it's been awhile since ive seen a QB under pressure, go down so easily as compared to other qb's. Our running game has been awful since the switch. Manuel was not a great runner yet but he was a threat that made defenses pay attention too. And I put this more on Hackett than Orton. The drive in Detroit I think EJ could have done yes. An inaccurate pass pulled in by a circus catch from Sammy. Yesterday? Not so much. That was a proper Quarterback inspired game winning drive. Yes Chandler, Hogan and Sammy helped out, but Orton put some throws on the money. He made some great throws on that drive. We also shouldn't need that drive to beat a bad Minny team. The defense won the game.
jr1 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Kyle Orton has sampled more snatch than Wilt Chamberlain
bigK14094 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I found the game announcers commentary on Orton to be insightful. One was a former teammate of Orton's, and he said he didn't recognize the guy on the sideline. Orton has grown up and matured....and is leading a flawed offense with the skills of a veteran. Now, I have been a season ticket holder for 40 years, and have seen them all. I can tell you the number one qualification of an NFL QB is the arm strength and accuracy. EJ doesn't have what it takes, set aside all the other great qualities. I have not seen a professional down the middle throw from EJ in the two years I have watched him...not an NFL ready arm. Orton, on the other hand, is short on running capability/escapability.....but, he can chuck the rock in there, short and long. The stats show it....EJ was missing wide open receivers, and Marrone faced an insurection from the wr's....he had to make the change. I think the Bills were lucky to get Orton, and might end up north of .500 for the first time in many years. Not predicting playoffs here, but saying the right QB is running the ship/ I think we will see Orton for a couple of years...until another QB shows up. (EJ a bust in my view) As for the Fitz comparisons, Orton is less athletic than Fitz, who could scramble pretty well you might recall. but, Orton has a better arm, especially on long throws, and is my preference when selecting between the two veterans.
GunnerBill Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 He made some great throws on that drive. We also shouldn't need that drive to beat a bad Minny team. The defense won the game. You don't need to tell me that. I am higher on our D than I think anyone on this board. The O is still the problem, Orton, EJ or whoever else is back there.
xsoldier54 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Who knows this? Do I think EJ could have scored 17 points? Sure. I know he has 3 game winning drives in 14 starts and would have had another one if SJ and Chandler didn't fumble against ATL. For the switch to be justified, I want to see better. Why is that wrong? Because E.J. has regressed and he was absolutely horrible the last three games that he played. He needed to sit down for the Bills to have any chance of winning this year. We all want to see better, but without the switch, I am convinced we would be 2-5 right now instead of 4-3. It is just my opinion based on watching E.J. play this year and watching Orton play. Yes we have turned the ball over too much and taken more sacks, but I believe that it is Orton's veteran presence that enabled those two wins. I absolutely do not believe we win against either Detroit or Minnesota with E.J. at QB. I found the game announcers commentary on Orton to be insightful. One was a former teammate of Orton's, and he said he didn't recognize the guy on the sideline. Orton has grown up and matured....and is leading a flawed offense with the skills of a veteran. Now, I have been a season ticket holder for 40 years, and have seen them all. I can tell you the number one qualification of an NFL QB is the arm strength and accuracy. EJ doesn't have what it takes, set aside all the other great qualities. I have not seen a professional down the middle throw from EJ in the two years I have watched him...not an NFL ready arm. Orton, on the other hand, is short on running capability/escapability.....but, he can chuck the rock in there, short and long. The stats show it....EJ was missing wide open receivers, and Marrone faced an insurection from the wr's....he had to make the change. I think the Bills were lucky to get Orton, and might end up north of .500 for the first time in many years. Not predicting playoffs here, but saying the right QB is running the ship/ I think we will see Orton for a couple of years...until another QB shows up. (EJ a bust in my view) As for the Fitz comparisons, Orton is less athletic than Fitz, who could scramble pretty well you might recall. but, Orton has a better arm, especially on long throws, and is my preference when selecting between the two veterans. This. :thumbsup:
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Because E.J. has regressed and he was absolutely horrible the last three games that he played. He needed to sit down for the Bills to have any chance of winning this year. We all want to see better, but without the switch, I am convinced we would be 2-5 right now instead of 4-3. It is just my opinion based on watching E.J. play this year and watching Orton play. Yes we have turned the ball over too much and taken more sacks, but I believe that it is Orton's veteran presence that enabled those two wins. I absolutely do not believe we win against either Detroit or Minnesota with E.J. at QB. He will only improve with the turnovers as has been shown by his career record of being above average at protecting the ball. Not having preseason is likely reason for turnovers so far... and lack of protection. The guy has had 88,94 and 96 passer ratings and a 2-1 record. The change is proving to be justified!
thewildrabbit Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Our running game has been awful since the switch. Manuel was not a great runner yet but he was a threat that made defenses pay attention too. And I put this more on Hackett than Orton. It hasn't been since the switch, as Hackett had EJ come out throwing at Houston. 40+ passes vs 20 rushes and he tried to get EJ killed. I think Hackett is in over his head trying to develop a rookie QB for the NFL, and its a good thing the Bills signed a vet QB with enough smarts to change plays out of the crap Hackett called. Even this game only 19 rushes with the Bills averaging 6.2 yards per carry vs 43 passes again. Granted both the starting RB's were injured, and out. Boobie looked very winded at times, so I can't really fault Hackett that much. Still 3 first downs rushing, 17 first downs passing, and this type of scheme with this bad O line is an unsustainable way to win games. Time to see if Bryce Brown was worth a 4th round pick. About the only good thing is that Boobie @ 6'1'' 233 lbs is about the perfect type of RB to fit Hackett's 70% up the middle running attack
bobobonators Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Great post. Everyone is overlooking how the offense has completely changed with Orton. Here's the pass vs run ratio per game: Game 1 - 22 pass, 33 rush Game 2 - 26 pass, 33 rush Game 3 - 39 pass, 22 rush Game 4 - 44 pass, 23 rush Game 5 - 43 pass, 22 rush Game 6 - 38 pass, 23 rush Game 7 - 43 pass, 19 rush So, why go that way? Well, quite frankly, it's because the coaches realized how ****ty our oline is, and with EJ's limitations they can't pass the ball a ton with him. Here's how the rush yards per game breaks down: Game 1 - 5.85 YPC Game 2 - 3.42 YPC Game 3 - 3.95 YPC Game 4 - 4.17 YPC Game 5 - 2.22 YPC Game 6 - 2.95 YPC Game 7 - 6.21 YPC Quite frankly, EJ doesn't do well if we have less than 4 YPC and we have to throw a bunch. Even at 4 YPC (Houston), when the game is on the line, he can't win it. The coaching staff recognized that and made the change to Orton, who can sling the ball when the running game isn't working. Today was our best YPC day due to Spiller's long run. I think the coaching staff right now is trying to make up for the deficiency running the ball by having Kyle sling it. I think it's a solid strategy and I have to think they will focus on keeping Orton this offseason while bolstering the OL and resigning our D guys. If they do that, we could have a damn good team next year. And we should stay in contention this year. Good post. Further: Something else that is critically important to not overlook: Orton gives a chance to win without an effective running game. Against the Vikings we had a rushing total of 118yds (of which almost half came on a single run by spiller – 53yds). Not consistently effective. Win. Against the Pats we had 68yds total rushing – pathetic. We were within 1 score of the Pats late in the 4th quarter. Loss. Against the Lions we had 49yds total rushing – pathetic. Win. With EJ: Against the Texans we had 96 total rushing yards. Not effective. Loss. Against the Chargers we had 87 total rushing yards. Not effective. Loss. Against the Dolphins we had 113 total rushing yards. Not awesome b/c CJ had a big run this game too for 47yds so we weren’t consistently running the ball well. Win Against the Bears we had 193 rushing yards. Good day rushing. Win Going back to last year, in games where EJ played and we didn’t run for 100yds: Bills/Steelers – Loss (destroyed) Bills/Jets – Win Bills/Bucs – Loss (destroyed) And then there were games where we rushed for almost 200yds and STILL lost (like against the Falcons). So based on my observation: EJ is 1-4 in games where we don’t rush for at least 100yds. In limited play, Orton is 1-1. Obviously a very limited sample for Orton, but something to keep an eye on going forward. What I can say is this: Orton is not getting HALF the running help Bills QB’s got last season. It was disheartening going back over the games last season b/c there were 4-5 games where we rushed near or OVER 200yds in a game. God we were so good at running and now look at us.
BuffOrange Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) "Our passing game has also been great since the switch. Not perfect, because of the O-line and a handful of Orton mistakes, but we have the best passing offense right now since Kelly." You forgot Drew Bledsoe era as our passing was pretty good for a year then as well. Flutie also had a good year passing. He is no Kelly. It was only a half year. Except for the snow game vs Miami the offense was putrid in the 2nd half of that romanticized 2002 season. Edited October 20, 2014 by BuffOrange
JC2002 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Couldn't we say the same thing about EJ in Houston with the early drops? Why are we making excuses for an 8th year QB? Isn't that the reason we switched? Is it wrong to want more than 17 points a game? Again, it's not all on Orton but I thought we were going to see a bigger upgrade. My point was not about excuses it was about the reality of the situation that some of you are having a hard time adjusting too. You can play would've could've should've so yes while we could say the same thing about EJ and the early drops my point was that you cant play that game because it goes on forever with that many moving pieces . the assumption if A doesn't happen then B is guaranteed to happen in football is wrong . We made the switch because we didnt have NFL caliber QB play to start the season and the entire league knew it . he is a bigger upgrade nobody in the league believes that its not except for maybe a handful of people on this board who simply refuse to acknowledge it . This is below is your clear proof of a upgrade and it has been since day one but again you guys are so intent on nitpicking individual stats that you cant see the other areas in which he has been huge upgrade . He’s tough,” Chandler said. “He’s a guy who stands back there, not afraid to stand in there, not afraid to make throws into tight windows, trusting guys to make plays. We made some great plays as receivers, but you have to make those throws to give us those chances and it’s been a lot of fun and we hope it continues.” If it does, it won’t only be because of what Orton does during the game. It also will be the product of what he does during the preparation. “We’ve got young guys out there at receiver,” Chandler said. “All week, he’s able to help them see the things that he’s seeing. He’s helping them run routes the way he wants, so everybody’s on the same page. And his calming influence is good. He’s seen a lot of things in this league, and we’re able to trust that he knows what he’s seeing. “I think it starts in the film room. It goes into walk-throughs. You look at the walk-throughs and we’re able to be more detailed. He’s been great for our football team, just bringing that veteran presence. It’s been a good addition for us.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I think EJ gives them a better chance to win against the Jets with this dumpster fire of an offensive line. Interesting argument. I'll agree Orton and EJ bring completely different things to the game. And EJ has been better on turnovers and can do more with his legs. No question he avoids sacks better. Like I hope all fans feel... It's irritating at least that another future of the franchise guy is showing more signs he won't work out than will. The flip side is, and wasn't sure this would be the case, but with this horrid o line, Orton doesn't get jumpy, he's not panicking back there or racing through his mental checklist from the OC, QB coach, mechanics guy, summer guy, etc. I didn't believe a journeyman, with a mediocre career who was murmuring about retirement would bring in a swagger and be so unflappable with well oiled turnstiles manning both guard spots. And yes, like always, it's blind not to expect that at some point, the true reason for losing his job to tebow, Grossman to name two, will show it's ugly head and remind us why it always hurts to be a bills fan. But for now, he's 2-1 and arguably playing the best football of his career.
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Because E.J. has regressed and he was absolutely horrible the last three games that he played. He needed to sit down for the Bills to have any chance of winning this year. We all want to see better, but without the switch, I am convinced we would be 2-5 right now instead of 4-3. It is just my opinion based on watching E.J. play this year and watching Orton play. Yes we have turned the ball over too much and taken more sacks, but I believe that it is Orton's veteran presence that enabled those two wins. I absolutely do not believe we win against either Detroit or Minnesota with E.J. at QB. This. :thumbsup: EJ was not horrible against Miami. Again, I don't think Orton is horrible. He is what he is. This is him. He will put up good yardage totals but not a ton of points. It's not all on him. He is a million times better than EJ at scanning the field and making reads. But I wanted to see EJ grow because we don't know what he is upside is. This is what Orton is. A professional Qb that a good team doesn't want to be their starter. I don't think the Detroit and Minnesota games have justified the situation because the points haven't been there. Our 2 high points totals have been with EJ under center. I hope Orton drops 30 this year and takes us to the playoffs. It will be more than justified. But we need more and passing yardage totals don't wow me.
papazoid Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Our running game has been awful since the switch. Manuel was not a great runner yet but he was a threat that made defenses pay attention too. average yards per carry per week #1- 5.8 #2- 3.4 #3- 4.0 #4- 4.2 switch #7- 6.2
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 He will only improve with the turnovers as has been shown by his career record of being above average at protecting the ball. Not having preseason is likely reason for turnovers so far... and lack of protection. The guy has had 88,94 and 96 passer ratings and a 2-1 record. The change is proving to be justified! Use QBR. He's 28th. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr Better than EJ but for a 8th year pro, that's terrible. We need to be better. average yards per carry per week #1- 5.8 #2- 3.4 #3- 4.0 #4- 4.2 switch #7- 6.2 I'm going to use Spiller "Hater" math. Take away his 53 yard run, we ran 18 times for 65 yards. 3.6 ypc.
papazoid Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Use QBR. He's 28th. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr Better than EJ but for a 8th year pro, that's I'm going to use Spiller "Hater" math. Take away his 53 yard run, we ran 18 times for 65 yards. 3.6 ypc. with that logic, shouldn't runners get credit for yards negated by penalty ?
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Use QBR. He's 28th. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr Better than EJ but for a 8th year pro, that's terrible. We need to be better. I'm going to use Spiller "Hater" math. Take away his 53 yard run, we ran 18 times for 65 yards. 3.6 ypc. QBR has been discussed on here before, and I am not a believer.
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