Malazan Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Jim I think it goes far beyond that. I think there are tons of "fans" that hate. I'll leave it at that. I was going to add that they hate any QB who doesn't look like the second coming of Brett Favre. But I really think they just love to hate. Many of them probably lead miserable lives. some "Fans" on this board would have crucified Favre.
GunnerBill Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I disagree. It doesn't have to be vitriolic but it's impossible not to compare and contrast their play. But what is the merit of the comparison? They are not going back to EJ unless Orton goes down. The only question that is relevant for this season is whether Orton and the offense generally are doing a good enough job. I do believe KO's play is good enough to get us into the playoffs. What some don't seem to understand is that the running game is averaging 69 YPG at 2.6 YPC since Orton has been the QB. Both of those numbers rank dead last in the NFL right now. Is that because the of Orton? Minnesota and NE both were crushing our run game with 7 man fronts which Shouldn't happen. So if the run game is not getting it done, what's winning for us on offense? The passing game. So do I IF and it is IF the defense keeps playing at a high level. With a defense allowing less than 20 points per game Orton and this offense can get it done. Neither myself nor Alphadawg are blaming Orton for offensive woes - I lay the majority of the blame on Hackett actually - we are both just saying (and he can correct me if I am misunderstanding his point) that the offensive performance of yesterday is not going to be good enough over 16 games. That isn't just on Orton but you can't take the Quarterback out completely.
Alphadawg7 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Alphadawg is right. Too many fans want this to be EJ vs Orton. I like EJ Manuel, but I said on here straight away after the Houston game "that is the kind of performance that gets you benched." They made the change, it was hard to disagree with it at the time to my mind but some did and they are entitled to their opinion. But this isn't about EJ now. They are not going back to him this season unless there is an injury. That means the question that Alphadawg is posing is the correct one - is Orton's play and the all round performance of the offense at the moment good enough to get us to the play-offs? My take is that if our D keeps enough people to 20 points or fewer it will be. If this offense needs to score north of 25 points to win I don't see it happening. :worthy: :worthy: Thank god some people here are able to actually read and understand the context of what is being said. It was never about EJ vs Orton, its about being objective about the state of our offense, which is very concerning.
John from Riverside Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Why do you keep bringing up EJ to me? Have you seen me once say EJ is better in the posts you keep replying to? Have you once seen me say bench Orton for EJ? Seriously, so sick of that being brought up because I have concerns about Orton and this offense. Doesn't mean I don't root for Orton, doesn't mean I don't think he should be the starter right now...means, this offense still sucks and we need to fix it or we won't make the playoffs again. Case closed. Has nothing to do with EJ so move the hell on from that reply...so sick of this EJ vs Orton crap in every thread if bring ANYTHING up about our offense. Good lord. PS: If you wish to continue a EJ crusade, I suggest you don't say things completely absurd and factually incorrect like "No way EJ makes that throw to Sammy" when he has had made that throw, has three 4th qtr comeback wins in 14 games, and has made every throw Orton has made. If you don't like EJ, good for you. But stating things that have been proven factually incorrect and absurd makes you appear to just be on a crusade about a guy who is not even playing. And its even dumber to bring that up to me when I am NOT advocating for EJ to play...not once. I said the offense has sucked for 5 straight weeks, 2 of those were under EJ when he became a pansy and played with no balls. Our offense still sucks regardless who's under center. Sorry Alpha....I didnt realize that was your position on the Orton/EJ thing....my bad
Big Gun Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) are you counting all 14 starts? I am talking about this season. 5 TD's 3 INT's and 1 fumble against better defenses. EJ has an upside. KO doesn't I want to know now if EJ is the answer not in 1 or 2 more years. Yeah, ok sure he does. Excellent chance his upside will be less than what Orton already is. I surely have NEVER seen any semblance that suggests EJ will ever be a competent NFL QB. I think we have seen enough, as have quite a few ex players and media and current coaches, of EJ and his many many fatal faults to answer your question now. Edited October 20, 2014 by old school
Rob's House Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 :worthy: :worthy: Thank god some people here are able to actually read and understand the context of what is being said. It was never about EJ vs Orton, its about being objective about the state of our offense, which is very concerning. Orton > EJ Deal with it
Gray Beard Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I disagree. It doesn't have to be vitriolic but it's impossible not to compare and contrast their play. I do believe KO's play is good enough to get us into the playoffs. What some don't seem to understand is that the running game is averaging 69 YPG at 2.6 YPC since Orton has been the QB. Both of those numbers rank dead last in the NFL right now. Is that because the of Orton? Minnesota and NE both were crushing our run game with 7 man fronts which Shouldn't happen. So if the run game is not getting it done, what's winning for us on offense? The passing game. If the running game is so bad, does that mean that the other teams are stacking the box against the run and rushing extra guys to go after the QB? If that is the case, isn't the cure for that to have enough of a passing game to force the defense to hang back and cover receivers? Is the O-Line so bad that only rushing four is sufficient to make the QB hurry and cripple the running game?
Rob's House Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 If the running game is so bad, does that mean that the other teams are stacking the box against the run and rushing extra guys to go after the QB? If that is the case, isn't the cure for that to have enough of a passing game to force the defense to hang back and cover receivers? Is the O-Line so bad that only rushing four is sufficient to make the QB hurry and cripple the running game? I'm not sure if it's the cause, but the run game disappeared when Chris Williams went out.
Alphadawg7 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Orton > EJ Deal with it Not the topic...so deal with that.
Rob's House Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Not the topic...so deal with that. I was joking.
Alphadawg7 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Sorry Alpha....I didnt realize that was your position on the Orton/EJ thing....my bad Its fine, I am just frustrated as there is no freedom to voice concerns about the offense here. If you are concerned about the Offense and Orton then you labeled an EJ fan. I don't care who is our QB, I just want to win. Even Marrone was not happy with this win. I will take the win, but doesn't mean I am not concerned when we play teams like the Pats, Denver, GB, etc sill remaining on our schedule. I fear reaching the playoffs will be an impossibility if the offense doesn't figure out how to play with more consistency and I want the playoffs. Edited October 20, 2014 by Alphadawg7
billsfan1959 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I think your missing a couple more improvements in that list. Much more WR involvement. Much more WR production. Much more Red Zone production. Adjustments at the line. Quicker release. More 20+ yard plays. More game-winning drives. A few extra sacks doesn't negate that. YPA a little better? Since when is an increase from 6.4 to 7.2 "a little?" I am not one of those who has criticized Orton and, after three games, I still believe it was the right call to make the change. I think the improvements mentioned are legitimate; however, there are some real concerns as well. In three games, he has lead the team to only 56 points. He is playing better than EJ did and it is not entirely his fault - but still, the offense needs to put more points on the board than they have been. He also has turned the ball over five times, resulting in 23 points for the opposition - and those were his fault. That's a net point differential of only 33 points. He is still the best option we have and, in the end, the only things that really matter are wins and losses. He is 2-1 as a starter. Hopefully he continues to get better and cuts down on the mistakes.
Captain Hindsight Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Its fine, I am just frustrated as there is no freedom to voice concerns about the offense here. If you are concerned about the Offense and Orton then you labeled an EJ fan. I don't care who is our QB, I just want to win. Even Marrone was not happy with this win. I will take the win, but doesn't mean I am not concerned when we play teams like the Pats, Denver, GB, etc sill remaining on our schedule. I fear reaching the playoffs will be an impossibility if the offense doesn't figure out how to play with more consistency and I want the playoffs. I'm right there with ya Alpha. The offense needs to play better. Doesn't matter if it KO, EJ Or Kelly
Rico Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Because some posters on here are bigger EJ fans then Bills fans. Ignore them. Just enjoy the win No, don't ignore them, laugh at them first & then feel pity....just like the JP days.
DaBills51 Posted October 21, 2014 Author Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Okay, so I just got home from work, and I want to clear some things up after reading all of the replies. 1.) Was it a bad idea to use the word "hater" in the title? Probably. To be honest, if the title accurately reflected the purpose of the topic, I would have went with "Why are people being overcritical of Kyle Orton's performances?", but that was too wordy. So, I went with hater, which according to urban dictionary is: "a person that simply cannot be happy for another person's success. So rather than be happy they make a point of exposing a flaw in that person." I think that it fits perfectly, and I hope that things clears up on that end. 2.) I never meant this to be an EJ vs Orton thread, hence why I did not once mention EJ in my post. So for those who act like I'm pitting Orton against EJ - you couldn't be more wrong. 3.) Many of the posts actually summed up the reason why I created the topic, which is that I believe people are being overly critical of Orton because he is Kyle Orton. I saw countless replies stating that "he is what I thought he was" or "he shows why he's a journeyman", and that was why I started this topic. And that is, if Kyle Orton had played the way he's been playing these past 3 weeks for a sustained period while at Chicago or Denver, then he never would have been let go or traded. I guess I just can't stand the, "well, he was average before, so he'll always be average" logic. In addition to Fred Jackson, I can name you probably 30 players who were cut by multiple teams early in their career or never given a chance, who then went on to become pro-bowl caliber players. Past performance is not indicative of future results, so commenting on a player's past is irrelevant to the conversation. Edited October 21, 2014 by DaBills51
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Okay, so I just got home from work, and I want to clear some things up after reading all of the replies. 1.) Was it a bad idea to use the word "hater" in the title? Probably. To be honest, if the title accurately reflected the purpose of the topic, I would have went with "Why are people being overcritical of Kyle Orton's performances?", but that was too wordy. So, I went with hater, which according to urban dictionary is: "a person that simply cannot be happy for another person's success. So rather than be happy they make a point of exposing a flaw in that person." I think that it fits perfectly, and I hope that things clears up on that end. 2.) I never meant this to be an EJ vs Orton thread, hence why I did not once mention EJ in my post. So for those who act like I'm pitting Orton against EJ - you couldn't be more wrong. 3.) Many of the posts actually summed up the reason why I created the topic, which is that I believe people are being overly critical of Orton because he is Kyle Orton. I saw countless replies stating that "he is what I thought he was" or "he shows why he's a journeyman", and that was why I started this topic. And that is, if Kyle Orton had played the way he's been playing these past 3 weeks for a sustained period while at Chicago or Denver, then he never would have been let go or traded. I guess I just can't stand the, "well, he was average before, so he'll always be average" logic. In addition to Fred Jackson, I can name you probably 30 players who were cut by multiple teams early in their career or never given a chance, who then went on to become pro-bowl caliber players. Past performance is not indicative of future results, so commenting on a player's past is irrelevant to the conversation. I believe this is over emphasized, the truth is he was traded only because of a ridiculous situation in Denver. He asked to be released from Denver after the situation again became untenable for him. Had Chicago not valued Cutler so highly(as many teams did) I believe Orton could very well still be with Chicago. Denver needed something after agreeing to McDaniels system. I am not suggesting Orton is a top ten QB, but everyone who treats it like he was forced out of places do to bad play is exaggerating what happened. Orton has been on the losing end of the "the grass is greener" theory every time. Cutler is greener than Orton(trade), Tebow is greener than Orton(experiment), and Cassel is greener than Orton(Injured starter). In reality I think, perhaps, many people would disagree with all of those, but at the time those were the choices made. Edited October 21, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso
GunnerBill Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) When Denver traded Culter for Orton the idea was to have Orton be a placeholder for their QB of the future. They drafted Tim Tebow as that and then tried to make him an NFL passer. Tebow then got a couple of games at the end of his rookie year and when Orton started the following season 1-4 (not all on him clearly) the clamour for the change to be made began (dsepite the fact that coming out of Training Camp that year Tebow was actually 3rd on the depth chart). So whilst yes the Tebow situation was odd - Denver never believed Orton was the long term answer. I was surprised after doing okay in a few starts in Kansas City that he didn't get another look for a starting job somewhere... but the rookie pay scale now really encourages you to take a chance on young Quarterbacks because they cost you very little against the cap and if they are good you have a real window (a la the Seahawks with Wilson) before you have to pay them. So "journeyman" vets like Orton find it harder to get a 4th or 5th crack at a starting job because teams prefer to ride with the likes of Jake Locker and Christian Ponder and the likes in the hope of finding the long term answer. Edited October 21, 2014 by GunnerBill
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 Yeah, ok sure he does. Excellent chance his upside will be less than what Orton already is. I surely have NEVER seen any semblance that suggests EJ will ever be a competent NFL QB. I think we have seen enough, as have quite a few ex players and media and current coaches, of EJ and his many many fatal faults to answer your question now. Through his first 15 starts, Orton threw 9 tds and 13 ints. He threw 5 ints in one game. He got the next start. So saying EJ has no upside is based on nothing. And the whole point is not about EJ. Orton is starting because he was to be an upgrade in a win now year. While besides passing yards, what has been upgraded? It has not been the running game. It hasn't been points. And I'm guessing we might face a better DC than George Edwards. I think Hackett is the biggest problem. I think it is almost unfair to evaluate any player in this offense because who looks better? This is a playoff defense and STs. Our offense is one of the worst in the NFL at scoring points. http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/sort/totalPointsPerGame That is a major problem and the offense led by Orton isn't producing enough.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Yeah, ok sure he does. Excellent chance his upside will be less than what Orton already is. I surely have NEVER seen any semblance that suggests EJ will ever be a competent NFL QB. I think we have seen enough, as have quite a few ex players and media and current coaches, of EJ and his many many fatal faults to answer your question now. haters gotta hate Through his first 15 starts, Orton threw 9 tds and 13 ints. He threw 5 ints in one game. He got the next start. So saying EJ has no upside is based on nothing. And the whole point is not about EJ. Orton is starting because he was to be an upgrade in a win now year. While besides passing yards, what has been upgraded? It has not been the running game. It hasn't been points. And I'm guessing we might face a better DC than George Edwards. I think Hackett is the biggest problem. I think it is almost unfair to evaluate any player in this offense because who looks better? This is a playoff defense and STs. Our offense is one of the worst in the NFL at scoring points. http://espn.go.com/n...alPointsPerGame That is a major problem and the offense led by Orton isn't producing enough. :thumbsup: good research Edited October 21, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever
The Underdog Posted October 21, 2014 Posted October 21, 2014 I havent read this whole thread, but I don't really understand any Orton hate. I understand he takes some bad sacks and has turned it over, but that comes with the territory of a pocket passer. He has been great as a pure passer, throwing catchable balls to our receivers. Love his accuracy and his veteran command of the offense. He's averaging almost 300 yards a game and is 2-1. What more could you want out of a guy who just started playing with a team? Also, think about how good he would be if our O line could hold up and we can protect him better.
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