John Cocktosten Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 because its all about perception. be it announcers or the talking heads on ESPN etc I listed the stats of the defenses by total yards and points. the latter should be the telling point. Orton has escaped a 1-2 record because the Vikes D and Puts* D are worse than the Bills and all of the other teams EJ faced. Orton has escaped or the Bills have escaped? Orton escaped or the Oline, OC and RBs escaped? It seems that you want to attribute everything bad that happens to Orton's play and assign none of it where it belongs. What you and others criticizing Orton are failing to realize is that the run game has done nothing so it's all been on Orton. Vikings never had an 8 man box because they were dominating us with 7 man fronts. Then our RBs go down and even more pressure goes on the passing game. Not to mention, didn't Woods and Hogan fumble in big spots too? So again, why did Orton escape when nothing else on offense was working (minus sammy)
dubs Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 and barely has a 2-1 record. Barely? Oh! You mean we round up or down and Orton is 1.6 - 1.4.
dollars 2 donuts Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I've been seeing/hearing a lot of Kyle Orton hating, both on this forum and on WGR, and I'm curious as to where all of the hate is coming from. Over the past three weeks, Orton has averaged 297 yards, 1.66 TDs, and 1 INT per game. If you extrapolate his numbers over an entire 16 game season, he would finish with 4,750 yards, 27 TDs and 16 INT. So, with that being said, I don't get how anyone can say that he's even been average. Honestly, Orton has performed like a borderline top 10 QB over the past 3 weeks, and he's done this while being with the team for less than 2 months. Over the past three weeks, Orton has put up those numbers with terrible o-line play, and no running game to speak of. And then to top it off, he's done all of this against three top 10 pass defenses (based on YPG, 2 top 10 defenses if you go by passer rating against). Also, in regard to his turnovers, he's on pace for 16 INTs. Romo, Luck, both Mannings, Roethlisberger, Stafford, Rivers and Brees have all had 18+ INT seasons. So, does that mean that they're all average QBs? Oh, and not to mention, the Bills are 2-1 under Orton, and in both games he played some of his best football when it mattered the most to lead the Bills to wins. So, lets hear it, why should I be underwhelmed with Orton's performances over the past three weeks? We have increased our passing yards per 88 yards per game in a passing league (from approximately 209 to 297) and we have done this in spite of our poor running game, not to its detriment. Yeah, I'm with you, I can live with this for the time being. ...I can also live with someone who has been steely-eyed on two game ending drives in just three weeks.
PromoTheRobot Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 You know, Tom Brady has games he plays bad enough to lose but still wins at the end. They call him "franchise." The game is 60 minutes plus OT. If you have more points at the final gun you played well enough to win.
FireChan Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 You know, Tom Brady has games he plays bad enough to lose but still wins at the end. They call him "franchise." The game is 60 minutes plus OT. If you have more points at the final gun you played well enough to win. But does the final score really matter?
PromoTheRobot Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Funny how the metrics of what is considered good QB play changes depending on the argument.
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 You know, Tom Brady has games he plays bad enough to lose but still wins at the end. They call him "franchise." The game is 60 minutes plus OT. If you have more points at the final gun you played well enough to win. If Brady was on his 5th team, didn't have 3 rings, and didn't have every fanbase he played for happy they replaced him, this might hold weight.
John Cocktosten Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 If Brady was on his 5th team, didn't have 3 rings, and didn't have every fanbase he played for happy they replaced him, this might hold weight. I'm trying to figure out how any of this effects the outcome of a game or his play since he's been the starter. Please inform.
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Maybe John its about whether we will win ANY MORE GAMES with this offense playing like this. If you think the offensive play in Detroit will get us many wins then you have no idea what football looks like. Yes, that ONE game we won...how many times a year do you think we win if our offense plays all 16 weeks like that? Probably not more than that 1 game. Thats the point...same with yesterday and the NE game. Those offensive out puts, and include weeks 3 and 4 won't win us many games. Thats the point...but I guess people don't want to actually be objective about the issues with this team right now and just want to make it about Orton vs EJ. This is Trent Edwards all over again...its Fitz all over again...Because Trent was better than JP and Fitz was better than Trent people just blinded themselves to the issues STILL PLAGUING the offense and QB position. I don't care if Orton is better than EJ, I care about whether we can win some games because I am sick of missing the playoffs. This offense right now will not get us to the playoffs...it must improve. PERIOD. And I root for Orton each and every week...but because I don't feel this offense I have seen the last 5 weeks will get us to the playoffs, I am some how an Orton hater. Stupid. Yes, run game has sucked too and I hope Bryce can bring some new life into it. Our OL has been a major let down this year on both facets of the game. Hackett I think has also been a big part of the run game problem. I just hate how he calls a game with Freddie and CJ. That might be, but that is not on Orton's play(outside of the fumbles) and that is the point of the thread. There are many factors that need to improve. Coaching, Running and O-line play. People are using different or changing standards instead of a constant or the same standard to measure the production of the QB position, that is the problem. If you say it is the QB's job the pass the ball and get TDs Orton has done and better job, there is no debate about that. Orton in 3 games has the same TD/INT numbers as EJ had in 4. 5/3 and more passing yards per game. Right now the discussion should be how to fix the O-Line/Running Game, not Orton, as he is doing what is needed. His fumbles could be attributed to the poor line play, but I am keeping on him for now. As for EJ, one of his issues(biggest as far as I am concerned) is he risk aversion, Orton shows that he can overcome his mistakes and hopefully this is something EJ can learn. A QB doesn't need to be perfect as long as he can make up for a mistake(s) he may make(s). Funny how the metrics of what is considered good QB play changes depending on the argument. Thanks PTR, My point too. Edited October 20, 2014 by A Dog Named Kelso
Donald Duck Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Kyle Orton is the 1st QB the Buffalo Bills have had with a winning record since Bledsoe. The rusty Orton is averaging 300 yards a game, 2-1 as a Bills starter, one coming against the best Defense in the NFL. After the win I open up the Erie Times this morning and get to read two pages of how bad Kyle Orton is despite the wins.(John Dudely) It was enough to cancel my subscription... dog14787 @dog14787 4h4 hours ago @ETNdudley After a win and I'm forced to read this garbage? You realize Kyle Orton is the 1st winning QB the Bills have had since Bledsoe? Expand John Dudley @ETNdudley 2h2 hours ago @dog14787 That's a pretty broad definition of "winning quarterback." dog14787 @dog14787 2h2 hours ago @ETNdudley A rusty Kyle Orton is currently 3rd in the NFL in completion percentage, 5th in yards/game, 2-1 and its time to trash him eh? John Dudley @ETNdudley 2h2 hours ago @dog14787 Check out his career. It's been defined by streaky play interrupted by killer interceptions. He's Rob Johnson with facial hair. dog14787 @dog14787 1h1 hour ago @ETNdudley Rob Johnson with Facial hair, how informative, but why would I expect anything different... John Dudley @ETNdudley 1h1 hour ago @dog14787 No, I'm being dead serious. Compare their career numbers. Eerily similar. dog14787 @dog14787 19m19 minutes ago @ETNdudley KO has won more games then RJ has started,3 times as many career wins, RJ went 1-7 last season with Bills,comparison is ludicrous
Rob's House Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 It's funny to me that a leaky O-line was a fine excuse for why EJ Manuel couldn't hit a wide open target, but Orton managing to make clutch passes under duress after enduring a brutal beating all day just isn't good enough.
John from Riverside Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 If Brady was on his 5th team, didn't have 3 rings, and didn't have every fanbase he played for happy they replaced him, this might hold weight. The only thing that matters is how he plays for the bills
Security Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Orton makes the same mistakes as Fitz, but he has not made the late mistakes that Fitz has did, but it has only been 3 games. Go Bills, Go Orton!!!
Rob's House Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 dog14787 @dog14787 4h4 hours ago [*]@ETNdudley After a win and I'm forced to read this garbage? You realize Kyle Orton is the 1st winning QB the Bills have had since Bledsoe? Expand John Dudley @ETNdudley 2h2 hours ago @dog14787 That's a pretty broad definition of "winning quarterback." dog14787 @dog14787 2h2 hours ago @ETNdudley A rusty Kyle Orton is currently 3rd in the NFL in completion percentage, 5th in yards/game, 2-1 and its time to trash him eh? I can't believe that guy gets paid to give his opinion.
John from Riverside Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Maybe John its about whether we will win ANY MORE GAMES with this offense playing like this. If you think the offensive play in Detroit will get us many wins then you have no idea what football looks like. Yes, that ONE game we won...how many times a year do you think we win if our offense plays all 16 weeks like that? Probably not more than that 1 game. Thats the point...same with yesterday and the NE game. Those offensive out puts, and include weeks 3 and 4 won't win us many games. Thats the point...but I guess people don't want to actually be objective about the issues with this team right now and just want to make it about Orton vs EJ. This is Trent Edwards all over again...its Fitz all over again...Because Trent was better than JP and Fitz was better than Trent people just blinded themselves to the issues STILL PLAGUING the offense and QB position. I don't care if Orton is better than EJ, I care about whether we can win some games because I am sick of missing the playoffs. This offense right now will not get us to the playoffs...it must improve. PERIOD. And I root for Orton each and every week...but because I don't feel this offense I have seen the last 5 weeks will get us to the playoffs, I am some how an Orton hater. Stupid. Yes, run game has sucked too and I hope Bryce can bring some new life into it. Our OL has been a major let down this year on both facets of the game. Hackett I think has also been a big part of the run game problem. I just hate how he calls a game with Freddie and CJ. Every game takes on its own identity......we are winning games because of our defense.....our offense is squirming along because our OL play is absolutely horrible The one thing that I DO KNOW is that EJ Manuel does not make that throw to Watkins.....for that matter dont you remember how bad our red zone offense was with EJ Manuel overall? Dismal Meanwhile....Orton just seems to have the clutch factor in the end zone......he is willing to make the throw By the way none of this means I have given up on EJ Manuel the player.......I just think he is exactly where he needs to be right now....holding the clipboard behind a veteran QB.
Donald Duck Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 I can't believe that guy gets paid to give his opinion. unbelievable, and the Erie Times is a big Newspaper
John from Riverside Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 Orton makes the same mistakes as Fitz, but he has not made the late mistakes that Fitz has did, but it has only been 3 games. Go Bills, Go Orton!!! I know that people like to compare Orton to Fitz......but there is one very important aspect where they do not appear to be ANY WHERE NEAR comparable..... Fitz wilts under the pressure of the moment Orton seems to excel under the pressure of the moment
Maury Ballstein Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 But does the final score really matter? That's deep.
Ted William's frozen head Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 the Bills are 2-1 under Orton, and in both games he played some of his best football when it mattered the most to lead the Bills to wins. So, lets hear it, why should I be underwhelmed with Orton's performances over the past three weeks? Just imagine E.J. under center for that last drive. Yeah, I can't either....... As for EJ, one of his issues(biggest as far as I am concerned) is his risk aversion........ I call it 'being a coward', but point taken.
garbag3man Posted October 20, 2014 Posted October 20, 2014 (edited) Every game takes on its own identity......we are winning games because of our defense.....our offense is squirming along because our OL play is absolutely horrible The one thing that I DO KNOW is that EJ Manuel does not make that throw to Watkins.....for that matter dont you remember how bad our red zone offense was with EJ Manuel overall? Dismal Meanwhile....Orton just seems to have the clutch factor in the end zone......he is willing to make the throw By the way none of this means I have given up on EJ Manuel the player.......I just think he is exactly where he needs to be right now....holding the clipboard behind a veteran QB. I 100% agree with the overall point you were making. However, I am not going to speculate on whether Manuel throws that pass to Watkins. He has thrown a number of good passes over his career, and I think if we go back to the CAR game last year, we would all be singing his praise about the passes that he threw down the stretch to lead them on that drive. I think Orton is the right QB right now, but I have a hard time seeing people say things like "Our red zone offense was dismal with EJ at the helm." Of course EJ had a bunch to do with that. We also all know that with KO at QB, we have dialed up passes on 55% (11/20) of our red zone opportunities, and with Manuel, that number was 38% (16/42). Some of that may have to do with confidence that the staff has in EJ, I will concede that, but let's not act like this is happening in a vacuum. --Also, let's keep in mind that EJ threw for four TD and rushed for another in Red Zone opportunities this season. Just imagine E.J. under center for that last drive. Yeah, I can't either....... I call it 'being a coward', but point taken. I can, I saw it happen last year, at home against CAR, also saw it happen in TOR vs ATL last year, but for two TERRIBLE fumbles. AGAIN, I agree with you that KO is the right QB for this team right now, but can we PLEASE stop pretending like EJ hasn't done these things before? Because he has. Edited October 20, 2014 by garbag3man
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