Kyle Orton Haters

[What a Tuel]

That's great. You can look at JPs 2006 11th rated passer season and find reasons to believe in what you're hoping for. He was a project we reached on and it was a surprise to nobody outside 1&2 Bills drive that he never amounted to even a quality backup. And like JC said, different offense & different era.

But never mind career trajectories..

My point was, when you say "why are these excuses granted for X but not for Y", the implication is that their levels of play are equal, which clearly it's not now.

 

We are obviously traumatized by past failures at QB, but we clearly haven't seen EJ Manuel's ceiling yet. If you want to wait for it, or not, that is your opinion.

 

Their levels of play were not equal, which is why Orton gives us a better chance to win and I am ok with sitting Manuel for the time being, but could the things that are affecting our veteran's QB play, possibly of been affecting our young QB's play? My point is probably.

[Dragonborn10]

 

 

Right. It's a trade off, like anything else. EJ avoids sacks by dumping off for a minimal gain, or for 5 yards on 3rd and 7. Orton has a tendency to wait a little longer in the pocket, leading to more sacks but also to more completions to WR's down field. Orton ain't perfect, but he's better.

Or EJ tosses an 80 yard TD pass but I do agree with those who say Orton has involved the WR's more.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I've been seeing/hearing a lot of Kyle Orton hating, both on this forum and on WGR, and I'm curious as to where all of the hate is coming from. Over the past three weeks, Orton has averaged 297 yards, 1.66 TDs, and 1 INT per game. If you extrapolate his numbers over an entire 16 game season, he would finish with 4,750 yards, 27 TDs and 16 INT.

 

So, with that being said, I don't get how anyone can say that he's even been average. Honestly, Orton has performed like a borderline top 10 QB over the past 3 weeks, and he's done this while being with the team for less than 2 months.

 

Over the past three weeks, Orton has put up those numbers with terrible o-line play, and no running game to speak of. And then to top it off, he's done all of this against three top 10 pass defenses (based on YPG, 2 top 10 defenses if you go by passer rating against). Also, in regard to his turnovers, he's on pace for 16 INTs. Romo, Luck, both Mannings, Roethlisberger, Stafford, Rivers and Brees have all had 18+ INT seasons. So, does that mean that they're all average QBs?

 

Oh, and not to mention, the Bills are 2-1 under Orton, and in both games he played some of his best football when it mattered the most to lead the Bills to wins. So, lets hear it, why should I be underwhelmed with Orton's performances over the past three weeks?

 

 

People hate Orton?

[Chilly]

Orton played simply okay today but he did for the 3rd game straight raise his level of play in the 4th which is always good to see .

 

But lets get one thing straight to most of the NFL the Bills did not have a passing game until 3 games ago so anyone talking about the how the QB play has not improved is just living in some alternate reality. What EJ was doing 4 games ago as fine for college but nobody in the nfl regards that as NFL caliber QB play . That's no knock on EJ but thats just the facts .

 

I expect a ton of improvement from Orton post bye as well as some line changes . Right now they are not having real practice but instead are installing game plan every week. During the bye time they will be able to actually practice and work on situational football that has nothing to do with an opponent.I cant imagine how hard it must be to go from a run heavy scheme to a pass heavy scheme in the middle of a season with a QB and coaches who are unfamiliar with each other and the system.

 

Orton wasn't on a passing club or one which catered to his offensive abilities . You are comparing qbs drafted in two different ERA'S

 

Great post. Everyone is overlooking how the offense has completely changed with Orton.

 

Here's the pass vs run ratio per game:

 

Game 1 - 22 pass, 33 rush

Game 2 - 26 pass, 33 rush

Game 3 - 39 pass, 22 rush

Game 4 - 44 pass, 23 rush

Game 5 - 43 pass, 22 rush

Game 6 - 38 pass, 23 rush

Game 7 - 43 pass, 19 rush

 

So, why go that way? Well, quite frankly, it's because the coaches realized how ****ty our oline is, and with EJ's limitations they can't pass the ball a ton with him.

 

Here's how the rush yards per game breaks down:

 

Game 1 - 5.85 YPC

Game 2 - 3.42 YPC

Game 3 - 3.95 YPC

Game 4 - 4.17 YPC

Game 5 - 2.22 YPC

Game 6 - 2.95 YPC

Game 7 - 6.21 YPC

 

Quite frankly, EJ doesn't do well if we have less than 4 YPC and we have to throw a bunch. Even at 4 YPC (Houston), when the game is on the line, he can't win it. The coaching staff recognized that and made the change to Orton, who can sling the ball when the running game isn't working.

 

Today was our best YPC day due to Spiller's long run.

 

I think the coaching staff right now is trying to make up for the deficiency running the ball by having Kyle sling it. I think it's a solid strategy and I have to think they will focus on keeping Orton this offseason while bolstering the OL and resigning our D guys. If they do that, we could have a damn good team next year. And we should stay in contention this year.

Edited October 20, 2014 by BlueFire

[Bronc24]

 

 

Fresh QB that obviously needs development. We all knew that going in, but 250 yards isn't his ceiling. Unless you are in the camp that believes QB's are who they are and can't improve/develop.

 

Kyle Orton's Rookie Season he had one 200 yard game (the rest less than 200), 9 tds and 13 ints

EJ Manuel's first 14 games he had six 200 yard games (the rest less than 200), 16 tds and 12 ints

 

Just stop. The only "Manuel" quality I wish Orton had was the ability to run. Period.

 

Look, I bought an EJ jersey and I wanted the kid to excel. But the simple truth is he is not a winning QB right now. All you need to do is look at the body language of the team. They believe, as bad as things look, that Orton can somehow get it done. EJ does not command that presence. Rather quite the opposite. He had lost the offense.

 

I admire the move to sign Orton and having the balls to play him. It is the correct move.

[What a Tuel]

Just stop. The only "Manuel" quality I wish Orton had was the ability to run. Period.

 

Look, I bought an EJ jersey and I wanted the kid to excel. But the simple truth is he is not a winning QB right now. All you need to do is look at the body language of the team. They believe, as bad as things look, that Orton can somehow get it done. EJ does not command that presence. Rather quite the opposite. He had lost the offense.

 

I admire the move to sign Orton and having the balls to play him. It is the correct move.

 

Did you even read my posts? Geez.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

OK I'll speak up for others who think similarly ..... We don't HATE him.

 

We just don't think he's an improvement!!

 

What is the turnover differential since he started. positive or negative? EJ in 4 games 3 INT's 1 fumble, KO in 3 games 3 INT's 2 fumbles

What is the sack differential since he started. positive or negative? EJ in 4 games 6, KO in 3 games 13

 

What is it you don't (want to) see?

 

And for those touring KO's passing #'s

 

the passing game has "improved" because the run game has stalled!!!

 

Tim Tebow replaced him in Denver for goodness sake

Edited October 20, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[Captain Hindsight]

I agree that the line is a huge part of why both our passing game, and running game aren't doing as well as they should be.

 

I can't speak for everyone else, but I criticize Orton because these excuses weren't good enough for our fresh QB Manuel, so why are they good enough for our veteran backup?

 

I'm all for sitting Manuel until he is ready, but let's not pretend Orton is some undiscovered QB, and we found a diamond in the rough. We have been down that road before on several occasions.

This is my feeling too. I saw Orton take some really bad sacks yesterday and against NE. By far he is our best option right now but I'm just waiting for some team to figure him out. Journeyman QBs usually have a weakness that can be exploited.

[Dorkington]

My only beef with Orton is the amount of turnovers. He's thrown for 5 TDs, and he's turned the ball over 5 times. If he does a better job protecting the ball, then I'm all in. If he continues this path, I'm not going to be offended if we look into other options next year.

[C.Biscuit97]

I don't think anyone hates Orton. In fact, I love him as a backup. But I've seen this story before. We're putting all our chips in on a limited journeyman QB.

 

The reason we switched QBs is because it's win now. The fact is, there hasn't been an upgrade in point production. We turn the ball over more now and get sacked more. The running game is worse. There is zero doubt Orton is a better passer than EJ at this point but everything else has been worse.

 

We have a top defense in the NFL. The STs unit is very much improved. But those Detroit and Minny Ws are alarming and there are some serious warning signs. If Orton helps us make the playoffs, he will be my new hero. But if he doesn't, we wasted a year on developing a QB when I'm not sure EJ would have been much worse than Orton yesterday.

 

Nothing would make me happier than Orto ndropping 30+ points on the Jets. But I need to see a much better offensive unit before I start feeling better about the switch.

[GunnerBill]

I agree with much of what is said in this post and much of the support for Orton is totally justified, I just wish he would protect the ball and take sacks instead of dropping it. The INTs trying to go down the field I can live with.... the sill strip sack fumbles that are avoidable (whilst obviously partly on the line) annoy the hell out of me.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

My only beef with Orton is the amount of turnovers. He's thrown for 5 TDs, and he's turned the ball over 5 times. If he does a better job protecting the ball, then I'm all in. If he continues this path, I'm not going to be offended if we look into other options next year.

I don't think anyone hates Orton. In fact, I love him as a backup. But I've seen this story before. We're putting all our chips in on a limited journeyman QB.

 

The reason we switched QBs is because it's win now. The fact is, there hasn't been an upgrade in point production. We turn the ball over more now and get sacked more. The running game is worse. There is zero doubt Orton is a better passer than EJ at this point but everything else has been worse.

 

We have a top defense in the NFL. The STs unit is very much improved. But those Detroit and Minny Ws are alarming and there are some serious warning signs. If Orton helps us make the playoffs, he will be my new hero. But if he doesn't, we wasted a year on developing a QB when I'm not sure EJ would have been much worse than Orton yesterday.

 

Nothing would make me happier than Orto ndropping 30+ points on the Jets. But I need to see a much better offensive unit before I start feeling better about the switch.

+ 1 for both

 

How is that 1 to 1 TD - INT ration an improvement and a "rational" excuse for having a "better" chance to win?

[C.Biscuit97]

I agree with much of what is said in this post and much of the support for Orton is totally justified, I just wish he would protect the ball and take sacks instead of dropping it. The INTs trying to go down the field I can live with.... the sill strip sack fumbles that are avoidable (whilst obviously partly on the line) annoy the hell out of me.

 

But that's kinda been Orton's career. I don't know why people are surprised by it. There's a reason guys like him and Fitz play on a lot of teams. They are top tier backups who you hope don't start long periods for you because you're limited.

[Dorkington]

But that's kinda been Orton's career. I don't know why people are surprised by it. There's a reason guys like him and Fitz play on a lot of teams. They are top tier backups who you hope don't start long periods for you because you're limited.

 

Who's surprised by it? I think people just want him to tighten it up a little, not sure if anyone is actually expecting it though.

 

Orton gives us better production in the passing game, which is an absolute necessity, due to our run game's inability to maintain productivity. EJ may have a higher ceiling in the future, but right now the Bills don't want to "waste" the season on development.

[PromoTheRobot]

Bills fans expectations of QB play have morphed into the unrealistic realm. We expect our QB to be perfect. No incompletions, no turnovers, no flaws of any kind, plus they have to win games single-handedly. And when we do have a guy who throws almost 300yds a game, makes thows downfield, completes 70% and has two last-second game-winning drives we don't even notice because we are too obsessed with his flaws. It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad and typical.

 

I guarantee if Orton was doing this elsewhere we'd all be pissed the Bills were "too stupid" to sign this veteran stud. But because he's our QB he sucks.

[xsoldier54]

Agree about the turnovers from Orton. Way too many and it is definitely hurting us. Without those, yesterday would not have been close and we may have had a shot against NE. Unfortunately though, he is not the only one that is turning the ball over. Too many fumbles by WR's and C.J. fumbled against NE as well. If this team can eliminate the turnovers, then the offense will look much better. I'll take the W's, and I do agree that Orton is a better option than E.J. right now, but if we are to stand a chance to make the playoffs, we have got to stop turning the ball over.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Who's surprised by it? I think people just want him to tighten it up a little, not sure if anyone is actually expecting it though.

 

Orton gives us better production in the passing game, which is an absolute necessity, due to our run game's inability to maintain productivity. EJ may have a higher ceiling in the future, but right now the Bills don't want to "waste" the season on development.

Orton gives us better production in the passing game, which is an absolute necessity, because......

 

the run game has been lacking!!! the Bills were pretty much one dimensional pretty much after CJ went down.

[section122]

Because some posters on here are bigger EJ fans then Bills fans. Ignore them. Just enjoy the win

 

Wow just wow. If this had said EJ haters than Bills fans I would agree with you. Fans?!?! Can you name one person on this board that is a bigger EJ fan than Bills fan bc I can name several people that hate EJ enough to want him to fail rather than see the Bills win with him.

 

I don't think anyone hates Orton. In fact, I love him as a backup. But I've seen this story before. We're putting all our chips in on a limited journeyman QB.

 

The reason we switched QBs is because it's win now. The fact is, there hasn't been an upgrade in point production. We turn the ball over more now and get sacked more. The running game is worse. There is zero doubt Orton is a better passer than EJ at this point but everything else has been worse.

 

We have a top defense in the NFL. The STs unit is very much improved. But those Detroit and Minny Ws are alarming and there are some serious warning signs. If Orton helps us make the playoffs, he will be my new hero. But if he doesn't, we wasted a year on developing a QB when I'm not sure EJ would have been much worse than Orton yesterday.

 

Nothing would make me happier than Orto ndropping 30+ points on the Jets. But I need to see a much better offensive unit before I start feeling better about the switch.

 

Yes Yes Yes. Orton has better passing totals. Takes more sacks and has more turnovers. I really think that EJ could've mustered the 17,22, and 17 points that Orton has put up. A lot of things have gotten worse with Orton taking over including the run game and pass pro. For a veteran who people say can read and diagnose a defense better than EJ I just don't see it. What I do see is a QB who takes more chances. I see one who isn't afraid to let it rip. I don't see better results though. Very happy to be 2-1 over the last few games. Even happier that EJ looks to be trying to learn while sitting. Not convinced Orton is anything other than a stop gap incapable of getting the Bills where we want them to be. I hope he leads them to a winning record, I hope we make the playoffs, then I hope next year the light switch has gone on for EJ or the Bills have a plan for the future. Hell I won't even mind being completely wrong about this and have Orton make a Gannon like resurgence. I just can't say that Orton is the reason the Bills have won or that he has even played well.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

Do the Orton Haters realize he is NOT a turnover machine! Check the record don't BS! Player % RUNS PASS SACKS FUM INT Fum+Int PLAYS Peyton Manning 4% 411 8669 278 71 222 349 9358 Drew Brees 5% 341 7062 276 80 184 356 7679 Kirk Cousins 5% 14 407 16 6 19 22 437 Matt Ryan 5% 230 3566 172 29 84 201 3968 Brian Hoyer 5% 38 382 21 3 8 24 441 Matthew Stafford 6% 141 2749 140 32 79 172 3030 Andy Dalton 6% 164 1819 104 15 52 119 2087 Carson Palmer 6% 245 4794 248 59 153 307 5287 Tom Brady 6% 447 6832 356 95 136 451 7635 Andrew Luck 6% 155 1499 84 19 34 103 1738 Matt Schaub 6% 183 3181 172 41 84 213 3536 Eli Manning 6% 239 5233 265 81 176 346 5737 Derek Anderson 6% 86 1497 73 28 55 101 1656 Tony Romo 6% 221 3989 225 57 107 282 4435 Josh Freeman 6% 197 2020 111 38 67 149 2328 Cam Newton 7% 402 1681 128 21 45 149 2211 Kyle Orton 7% 113 2389 145 34 62 179 2647 Philip Rivers 7% 271 4338 260 75 107 335 4869 Ryan Fitzpatrick 7% 316 2759 175 53 99 228 3250 Matt Hasselbeck 7% 345 5034 342 63 148 405 5721 Rex Grossman 7% 81 1562 92 32 60 124 1735 Brady Quinn 7% 44 550 41 5 17 46 635 Jay Cutler 7% 309 3573 235 71 119 306 4117 Nick Foles 7% 81 819 55 16 14 71 955 Sam Bradford 7% 97 1760 120 27 38 147 1977 Chad Henne 7% 116 1954 149 17 63 166 2219 Shaun Hill 8% 73 967 65 18 24 83 1105 Joe Flacco 8% 242 3348 230 57 83 287 3820 Jason Campbell 8% 239 2506 169 51 60 220 2914 EJ Manuel 8% 69 437 34 7 12 41 540 Brandon Weeden 8% 39 784 55 12 26 67 878 Trent Edwards 8% 78 929 69 14 30 83 1076 Dan Orlovsky 8% 13 472 29 11 12 40 514 Jake Locker 8% 91 675 55 9 19 64 821 Aaron Rodgers 8% 350 3166 249 46 53 295 3765 David Garrard 8% 380 2281 179 44 54 223 2840 Mark Sanchez 8% 125 1867 126 43 69 169 2118 Colin Kaepernick 8% 206 863 74 19 16 93 1143 Matt Cassel 8% 247 2369 182 47 70 229 2798 Robert Griffin 8% 211 889 72 25 17 97 1172 Colt McCoy 8% 101 715 61 12 20 73 877 John Skelton 8% 42 602 47 11 25 58 691 Ryan Tannehill 8% 111 1290 107 20 35 127 1508 Jon Kitna 9% 313 4442 323 109 165 432 5078 Seneca Wallace 9% 68 788 59 19 19 78 915 Tarvaris Jackson 9% 163 1066 89 24 35 113 1318 Bruce Gradkowski 9% 88 709 53 20 24 73 850 Geno Smith 9% 106 668 58 14 28 72 832 Russell Wilson 9% 228 975 91 23 21 114 1294 Alex Smith 9% 312 2871 251 53 74 304 3434 Terrelle Pryor 9% 93 302 31 7 12 38 426 Mike Glennon 9% 31 558 49 8 12 57 638 Ben Roethlisberger 9% 355 4565 403 73 125 476 5323 Christian Ponder 9% 126 1057 95 20 36 115 1278 Michael Vick 9% 831 3050 290 91 85 381 4171 Josh McCown 10% 157 1405 117 46 49 163 1679 Matt Moore 10% 59 764 66 23 28 89 889 Blaine Gabbert 10% 76 784 74 21 24 95 934 Matt Flynn 11% 59 348 37 10 11 47 444 Kevin Kolb 11% 69 755 77 19 25 96 901 Kellen Clemens 11% 77 620 65 17 20 82 762

[simpleman]

I don't think too many think Orton is a great QB. He is a competent QB who has real fire and has veteran savvy. Without him we would be at the total mercy of the trainwreck of an OC we have in Hackett. I bet we would be better off letting Orton call the plays like Kelly did. He may not have Kelly's arm or physical skills, but he has the instincts and the football savvy. He may not be top 10, but he can get the job done, which is better than we have had in a while.